It's time - Jack into the middle

[Carter]

Jack is also a massive IF. You seem to be stating that its a certainty that he will monster being an inside midfielder but there's no proof of that, there is proof that he is a superstar forward. I would rather we go with what we have planned and thats Moore / Townsend to try and release Cotch.

Fair enough, but this is about winning finals, not just about getting us to fifteen wins and another Titus for Jack.

BTW I'm still keen on Jack doing his thing up forward at least half the time.

 

[mrposhman]

Fair enough, but this is about winning finals, not just about getting us to fifteen wins and another Titus for Jack.

BTW I'm still keen on Jack doing his thing up forward at least half the time.

Yep understand that, and part of that will be about trying to get Cotchin to resurrect his 2012 form. If a big bodied midfielder (Townsend or Moore) could do a decent to good job, the upside we will gain from Cotchin being released will be massive, that and the kids IMO is what will propel us to finals glory.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Griffiths goes for the air ball but Vickery hangs back too often.

Vickery nails his shots, Griff fades to the right.

They both need to improve and I think Ben's problems are easier to address.

Vickery has performed as a forward at senior level (and at VFL level), Griffiths has not (at either).

 

[Carter]

Vickery has performed as a forward at senior level (and at VFL level), Griffiths has not (at either).

Vickery won best supporting actor a few years ago but has been seen only in cameo roles since then.

He has been sacked from the film set twice and suspended once.

To say he has performed at the top level is simply not true.

 

[The Mole]

Vickery won best supporting actor a few years ago but has been seen only in cameo roles since then.

He has been sacked from the film set twice and suspended once.

To say he has performed at the top level is simply not true.

I reckon Vickery was our best performed player in the last third of the year. The only one to stand up in the Elim final.
His ruckwork was average but had the second best hit out to advantage of ANY player with 50 or more hit outs. He ranked 15th of ALL key forwards for goals per game and only one other forward had a greater accuracy in front of goal. (Stats from 2016 AFL prospectus) And he scored 31 goals in 15 games. Play all games this year and he will score 50+.

 

[tigerman]

I reckon Vickery was our best performed player in the last third of the year. The only one to stand up in the Elim final.
His ruckwork was average but had the second best hit out to advantage of ANY player with 50 or more hit outs. He ranked 15th of ALL key forwards for goals per game and only one other forward had a greater accuracy in front of goal. (Stats from 2016 AFL prospectus) And he scored 31 goals in 15 games. Play all games this year and he will score 50+.

Agree with all that, except that Jack was outstanding in the elimination final and for the whole season.

 

[AngryAnt]

Form is temporary for sure - and who knows who will do best as second fiddle for Jaaaaack in the forward line unless of course he's playing midfield which is a dead cert in my view.

Ty's form towards the end of last season puts him in poll position - it's his role to lose.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Vickery won best supporting actor a few years ago but has been seen only in cameo roles since then.

He has been sacked from the film set twice and suspended once.

To say he has performed at the top level is simply not true.

To say he hasn't simply isn't true.

 

[Sintiger]

To say he hasn't simply isn't true.

Correct. Interesting that 31 goals in 15 games in the AFL is not far off McBean's average per game in the VFL !!

I also think there is a little rewriting of history going on in regards to Griffiths. He was very good in the last 3rd of the season in 2014 and kept Vickery out of the 2014 elimination final team. He started 2015 in fantastic marking form but for some reason his goal kicking was a major problem. If he was kicking well for goal early in 2015 we may have had a different start to the season.

Griff is a confidence player and my view is that if he can iron out his goal kicking he is a very valuable player for us.

 

[Carter]

Correct. Interesting that 31 goals in 15 games in the AFL is not far off McBean's average per game in the VFL !!

I also think there is a little rewriting of history going on in regards to Griffiths. He was very good in the last 3rd of the season in 2014 and kept Vickery out of the 2014 elimination final team. He started 2015 in fantastic marking form but for some reason his goal kicking was a major problem. If he was kicking well for goal early in 2015 we may have had a different start to the season.

Griff is a confidence player and my view is that if he can iron out his goal kicking he is a very valuable player for us.

love the creative filters used for Vickery.

seems like everyone wants to point out a good game here, a bag there.

31 goals in 15 games. not bad, but doesn't take into account the intangibles that occurred if one to actually watch the games and not rely on the baldest of stats.

He still needs to improve his intensity from quarter to quarter, game to game.

He still doesn't attack the air ball. Doesn't fight for front position.

And finally, he still insists on continuing a one-sided dialogue with the umpires when the ball is still in his area.

He is far from the finished product and I certainly don't think he is "peforming" at AFL level.

He had a few very good games last year interspersed with a host of thoroughly mediocre ones.

 

[mrposhman]

love the creative filters used for Vickery.

seems like everyone wants to point out a good game here, a bag there.

31 goals in 15 games. not bad, but doesn't take into account the intangibles that occurred if one to actually watch the games and not rely on the baldest of stats.

He still needs to improve his intensity from quarter to quarter, game to game.

He still doesn't attack the air ball. Doesn't fight for front position.

And finally, he still insists on continuing a one-sided dialogue with the umpires when the ball is still in his area.

He is far from the finished product and I certainly don't think he is "peforming" at AFL level.

He had a few very good games last year interspersed with a host of thoroughly mediocre ones.

Tend to agree to an extent. His goals last year were significantly impacted by a few games, Collingwood (where he was very good, but he should have been being as he was playing on 1 undrsized defender and rotating on to 1 who was I think into his 2nd or 3rd game) where he kicked 6 goals, 4 goals against a very weak Gold Coast team and 3 goals against North Melbournes seconds. Against the others he therefore kicked 18 goals in 12 games which is ok but he could be doing more than that IMO. Thats whats frustrating about him and the Sydney game is a perfect example of his still all too infrequent good performances, the first half of that game he was putrid, then came out and was awesome in the 2nd half.

He should be compared to players at other clubs playing as second talls going into the finals, players like Josh Jenkins (better output than TV in 2015), Ben Brown (I reckon TV just shaded him in 2015 but bearing in mind Brown is only a 2nd year player and attacks the ball with more intent than I don't think its wrong to expect TV to be better than him by more than he was). Its hard to compre TV to many of the other finals sides as they play slightly different sized players in that 2nd tall spot, such as:

West Coast - Jack Darling
Hawthorn - Could either compare to Gunston or Roughead depending on who you say is the number 1 tall
Fremantle - Maybe Clarke but he spend way more time in the ruck than TV does so a bit harder to compare but TV is better than Clarke
Sydney - Hard to compare him to Buddy, could probably compare him to Tippett who has a far better output than TV
Bulldogs - Maybe compare to Redpath? Can't really compare to Stringer or Crameri.

I reckon he is just ok with some of these players and we probably lose a bit of defensive work by having him in the team rather than a smaller player, its clear that not too many teams play as many tall players as we do, tend to go with slightly smaller types (around 190-194cm) which make them a bit more mobile, if we are losing the defensive aspect of a forwards game with TV (and I don't think anyone can seriously claim that TV is any good at the defensive aspects) then we should be expecting him to be at the top of the class compared to offensive output as a second forward target and I'm not sure we get that enough at the moment.

I hope he does breakout this year, this could make us a serious challenger but what he shows currently is too fleeting and one of the main reasons why I disagree with you on moving Jacks position.

 

[Sintiger]

love the creative filters used for Vickery.

seems like everyone wants to point out a good game here, a bag there.

31 goals in 15 games. not bad, but doesn't take into account the intangibles that occurred if one to actually watch the games and not rely on the baldest of stats.

He still needs to improve his intensity from quarter to quarter, game to game.

He still doesn't attack the air ball. Doesn't fight for front position.

And finally, he still insists on continuing a one-sided dialogue with the umpires when the ball is still in his area.

He is far from the finished product and I certainly don't think he is "peforming" at AFL level.

He had a few very good games last year interspersed with a host of thoroughly mediocre ones.

Sounds like my take on McBean Carter

43 goals in the VFL. not bad, but doesn't take into account the intangibles that occurred if one to actually watch the games and not rely on the baldest of stats.

He still needs to improve his intensity especially related to chasing and making a contest.

He still doesn't attack the air ball. Doesn't get to enough marking contests and use his height.

He is far from the finished product and I certainly don't think he has shown enough to suggest he will definitely perform at an AFL level.

 

[Carter]

Sounds like my take on McBean Carter

43 goals in the VFL. not bad, but doesn't take into account the intangibles that occurred if one to actually watch the games and not rely on the baldest of stats.

He still needs to improve his intensity especially related to chasing and making a contest.

He still doesn't attack the air ball. Doesn't get to enough marking contests and use his height.

He is far from the finished product and I certainly don't think he has shown enough to suggest he will definitely perform at an AFL level.

Nice try. McBean was far more consistent than Ty.

This is the crucial point on which your argument fails.

 

[Sintiger]

Nice try. McBean was far more consistent than Ty.

This is the crucial point on which your argument fails.

The main difference of course is one is in the AFL and the other is in the VFL.

I am just giving an opinion as you are. I have watched McBean a lot and Vickery as well, it's just my view. If I had to pick one to play tomorrow I would pick Vickery without any hesitation. Doesn't mean that I don't think McBean can be a player, something that I have said in earlier posts, but my opinion is that you overate his performances.

I also think you underate Vickery's output, certainly in the 2nd half of 2015.

 

[taztiger4]

Nice try. McBean was far more consistent than Ty.

This is the crucial point on which your argument fails.

seriously are you serious ?

Thats up there as the outrageous quote of the year

 

[Carter]

seriously are you serious ?

Thats up there as the outrageous quote of the year

I take it you didn't make it down to the VFL.

Or in fact watched any AFL.

 

[AngryAnt]

McBean is far more consistent than Ty - he kicks exactly zero goals in each of the AFL games he's played so far.

 

[Sintiger]

Thats up there as the outrageous quote of the year

I think the correct term is bonehead ;D

 

[taztiger4]

I take it you didn't make it down to the VFL.

Or in fact watched any AFL.

I posted in the Mcbean thread that apart from the coaching staff & his Mum & Dad, I've seen him play as much as anyone in the last 2 years thankyou
Out of the 42 games (including practice games) our VFL side has played since being stand alone, I think I have missed 4

 

[Carter]

I posted in the Mcbean thread that apart from the coaching staff & his Mum & Dad, I've seen him play as much as anyone in the last 2 years thankyou
Out of the 42 games (including practice games) our VFL side has played since being stand alone, I think I have missed 4

Great, then you must have been at the bar?