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Trading Cousins? - Poll.
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
Massai said:
Again, when has Cousins ever indicated a willingness to coach OR stay in Victoria post career?
Unless he does this, this decision should only be made based upon what he can contribute as a player.
On this, his value is not in dispute, its the longevity of the contribution that is.
Between age and injury issues, reality is we are looking at probably another 1-2 years with Cousins. Is that worth giving up a 2nd round pick?
Not direct at you M, but I also find it funny some screaming about Cousins leadership values and what he teaches the kids were in favour of forcing the kids to lose for a second round pick.
A few months ago I'd say trade him. But he has come good as an individual and as well as a lynchpin in our midfield. To see the Cuz/Chimp combinations against Essendon got me more than a little excited.
It is a unique situation. Benny has a lot to prove to the world and we are the ones who gave him his chance to do so. So far he has repaid in spades and I doubt we've seen the best of Benny.
His hammies are a worry though, but if RFC could sound him out about a desire to stick around after his playing days are done to help coach the midfield, then I think we should hang onto him, dodgy hammies or not.
It is a unique situation. Benny has a lot to prove to the world and we are the ones who gave him his chance to do so. So far he has repaid in spades and I doubt we've seen the best of Benny.
His hammies are a worry though, but if RFC could sound him out about a desire to stick around after his playing days are done to help coach the midfield, then I think we should hang onto him, dodgy hammies or not.
The history of the player, how he came to us and his past.Disco08 said:
Benefits for us
Our complete lack of leaders.
His want to pay this club back, he still feels he owes us.
long term people - long term.
we must do everything we can to add quality youth to our list and that means scrambling for early picks. We stuffed up by winning meaningless games and if we could trade cousins for a pick inside the top 40 then we should.
cattle and long term are what we should be focussed on.
the coaching staff and guys like deledio, tambling, newman, foley etc should be teaching the kids.
meaningless wins and ben cousins won't turn duds into champions. you need to get the kids with potential to become champions into the club first.
we must do everything we can to add quality youth to our list and that means scrambling for early picks. We stuffed up by winning meaningless games and if we could trade cousins for a pick inside the top 40 then we should.
cattle and long term are what we should be focussed on.
the coaching staff and guys like deledio, tambling, newman, foley etc should be teaching the kids.
meaningless wins and ben cousins won't turn duds into champions. you need to get the kids with potential to become champions into the club first.
CC TIGER said:
So you'd be certain that the benefits he provides (that he hasn't already provided by way of influencing the players this year) are more valuable than a second round pick?
I agree we lack leaders but Cousins can't fix that on his own. He'll be gone soon so unless some of our next generation start taking some responsibility for this we're *smile* either way.
Harry said:
Thats the issue Harry. Who in the past have deledio, tambling, newman, foley, etc had to learn off?
Kane Johnson? Nathan Brown? Richo? Campbell?
Harry said:
Really?
And are Deledio, Tambling, Newman, and Foley good enough to be teaching these young kids?
What have they done in their own right to carry this burden?
Thats why we have had generation after generation of mediocrity....because there hasn't been players there that have won things at the elite level and know what it takes for a player and a team to become successful.
Thats what Cousins brings to the table.
At last we have a player that these players...even the likes of Newman...can see what they have been doing for years and thinking that is the way, and then Cousins comes along and its probably shocked a few of them to what they really have to do to become successful.
Simple thing for me here is , have a look how our kids have developed and yes TW has played a big part, however Id rather take the risk for 2 odd years with BC then take a punt on pick 25 if we would ven get that, nobody wanted him last year. Dont underestimate would a champion leader can do to young guliable mindsDisco08 said:
SCOOP said:
You are the one who mentioned comparing Cousins' stats with other players who get as quarter as much of the ball. Jackson is a perfect example of comparing stats based on possession numbers considering you raised the topic though. He's had a couple of decent tallies yet you've bagged his disposal and bagged those who've given him votes for it too even though his efficiency % was ok.
I didn't compare Ben's skill levels with Jacko's in any way, shape of form. Silly to compare when they have such different roles, and different degrees of pressure to dispose of the ball under at times, so I don't know why you even asked the question of me.
P.S. I mentioned Lids in my post too. Didn't it suit your agenda to include him in your smart alec ;D comments about Whitey and Jacko too?
Disco08 said:
I cannot understand your asumption that he has taught them (or will have by years end) everything he knows. As I have stated a number of times in this thread the fact that he addressed the players for the first time on Sunday indicates that he is feeling more settled at the RFC. I am sure he will build on that and continue and continue to lead by example.
One thing he will not have taught them by years end is how to play and prepare for finals footy!
Some points to consider...
- Ben has only begun to feel really comfortable at the club in the past 6 weeks (by bleeding for the club with his teammates).
- He has played three 30+ possession games for just the second time in his career. This is without much of a pre-season. If he is "past his best" like some claim, then it isn't by much.
- The debate on his hamstrings regularly brushes over Matthew Richardson having severe hamstring issues when he turned 30, like Ben. Richo then played 4 years of brilliant football injury free and STILL has another year of fantastic footy left in him.
- On the field, Ben Cousins could play until he's 34/35 if his mind is willing and the hunger is still there. Considering we will likely improve over the next 3-4 years, I predict Ben is a fairly good chance of playing until he's 34/35.
- Our club has had talent in the past. A big reason we've done so poorly for so long is because our culture doesn't allow that talent to reach it's full potential. Ben Cousins is a big turning point in the history of our club, because he is helping us build a culture that will ALLOW our players to reach their potential. THose who disagree, you only have to listen to the way Deledio speaks of him, or Jade, or Cotchin... everyone is blown away by his leadership.
And on the field, I bet Cotchin is becoming a better player for all the 1-2 plays he's doing with Cousins now.
Trading Ben for a 2nd round pick will slightly strengthen our talent stocks (1 player of 44), but will cost us an immeasurable amount in the cultural development he is impacting on today.
Re: Disco's post, Ben's influence has only been happening for a couple of months. Drill this culture into everyone on our list for another 3 years and we the classic "Richmond culture" will be distant memory. If we trade Cousins, we could easily drop back into the habits that have infested our culture for 28 years. It's only been about 6 weeks since Ben's felt part of the team. You can't change the entire culture of a club like ours in 6 weeks.
- Ben has only begun to feel really comfortable at the club in the past 6 weeks (by bleeding for the club with his teammates).
- He has played three 30+ possession games for just the second time in his career. This is without much of a pre-season. If he is "past his best" like some claim, then it isn't by much.
- The debate on his hamstrings regularly brushes over Matthew Richardson having severe hamstring issues when he turned 30, like Ben. Richo then played 4 years of brilliant football injury free and STILL has another year of fantastic footy left in him.
- On the field, Ben Cousins could play until he's 34/35 if his mind is willing and the hunger is still there. Considering we will likely improve over the next 3-4 years, I predict Ben is a fairly good chance of playing until he's 34/35.
- Our club has had talent in the past. A big reason we've done so poorly for so long is because our culture doesn't allow that talent to reach it's full potential. Ben Cousins is a big turning point in the history of our club, because he is helping us build a culture that will ALLOW our players to reach their potential. THose who disagree, you only have to listen to the way Deledio speaks of him, or Jade, or Cotchin... everyone is blown away by his leadership.
And on the field, I bet Cotchin is becoming a better player for all the 1-2 plays he's doing with Cousins now.
Trading Ben for a 2nd round pick will slightly strengthen our talent stocks (1 player of 44), but will cost us an immeasurable amount in the cultural development he is impacting on today.
Re: Disco's post, Ben's influence has only been happening for a couple of months. Drill this culture into everyone on our list for another 3 years and we the classic "Richmond culture" will be distant memory. If we trade Cousins, we could easily drop back into the habits that have infested our culture for 28 years. It's only been about 6 weeks since Ben's felt part of the team. You can't change the entire culture of a club like ours in 6 weeks.
Harry said:
Diagree in part but understand what you mean. Its only the messiah mentality if Cousins is seen to be the absolute difference (which he wont and cant be). But thats not to say he cant play a valuable role in showing these kids how to prepare, train and play - and he's doing that in spades. Its rare that a player can combine outstanding abaility with the hearts and minds stuff of a true leader in the footy sense. He does.
I would like the club to re-sign Ben for another year, maybe 2 if they are confident in his body on reasnonable terms. I would also like the club to sit down with him and plan out his future with the club. His last playing years can be used as almost a playing assistant coach from which he could transition into an off field development role. It may be that he can get some formal strength and development education and head in that direction. Alternatively a pure football role may be preferred. In summary, his redemption and that of our beloved club can progress hand in hand.
WesternTiger said:I cannot understand your asumption that he has taught them (or will have by years end) everything he knows. As I have stated a number of times in this thread the fact that he addressed the players for the first time on Sunday indicates that he is feeling more settled at the RFC. I am sure he will build on that and continue and continue to lead by example.
One thing he will not have taught them by years end is how to play and prepare for finals footy!
And what odds he ever gets the chance to teach them that?
I don't see the big deal about addressing the group from a development point of view. Surely most of this stuff is passed on at training? Honestly, how much is there to teach others about what it takes to play midfield? I'd suggest it's 5% theory and 95% applying it, especially in terms of Cousin's stand out attribute - his ability to run all day.
rockstar_tiger said:
Read some of the training reports from early in the year. They don't sound like Cousins was hanging around the shadows talking to no one.
Very good point above about finals football.
Many teams take several years learning how to adapt to finals football.
Port Adelaide finished 1st on the ladder several times, only to do poory in finals. St Kilda took a while to learn too. With Ben Cousins leading us onto the ground for a couple of years of finals, it could fast track our development by years, preparing us how to play an intense, finals atmosphere.
And it would be silly to use Round 1 vs Carlton as an example of Ben's influence not being that great on big matches. He didn't feel anywhere near as part of the club back then, and was never going to walk in here, last player on our list, and tell everyone what to do. The classic Richmond culture sees us crumble in big games and Ben Cousins could be a massive benefit teaching our kids how to prepare for finals football. This benefit, in my eyes, is greater than the benefit of another 2nd rounder pushing for selection.
Many teams take several years learning how to adapt to finals football.
Port Adelaide finished 1st on the ladder several times, only to do poory in finals. St Kilda took a while to learn too. With Ben Cousins leading us onto the ground for a couple of years of finals, it could fast track our development by years, preparing us how to play an intense, finals atmosphere.
And it would be silly to use Round 1 vs Carlton as an example of Ben's influence not being that great on big matches. He didn't feel anywhere near as part of the club back then, and was never going to walk in here, last player on our list, and tell everyone what to do. The classic Richmond culture sees us crumble in big games and Ben Cousins could be a massive benefit teaching our kids how to prepare for finals football. This benefit, in my eyes, is greater than the benefit of another 2nd rounder pushing for selection.
Disco08 said:
I did, I also read quotes by players saying it has been in the last 2 months or so that they've really appreciated and experienced his leadership. It seems to be common opinion that it took him a while to settle in, focus on his own body, get himself right, earn respect, and then he started rallying the boys together. He didn't walk in and demand everyone train harder, partly because he wasn't even in peak shape himself.
A bit hard to say "run harder" when half the team has better endurance than you at training!
