Trading Cousins? - Poll.

[johnson2richo2003]

A hypothetical question. If Ben wasn't at Richmond this year would our on-field performance have been much worse?

We,d be saying why didn't we get Cousins :hihi :hihi :hihi :hihi

 

[Rosy]

With all due respect, you also found it amusing when people thought we should bring Cousins to the club in the first place.

They were right all along... amusing indeed.

Did I? Don't bother about the due respect, a link will suffice please. I don't recall being amused by people thinking we should bring Ben to the club so I'd like to read what I said in context.

 

[Djevv]

So you generalise and attribute false claims to me but haven't even read my opinion on the topic of the thread? Unreal.

For your benefit

Hmm, your opinion above when taken at face value seems to me to be saying that Ben is of questionable value to the club and therefore there is no reason not to trade him. I disagree.

Laughable that you are trying to insinuate that I am picking on you or any other poster when I am merely posting an opinion on a footy board on the thread topic. My post actually referred to a number of peoples opinion - which I lumped together as the generalised opinion that Cousins is of little value to us other than what we can get for him. I didn't refer to you by name or rubbish that opinion either, I merely disagreed with it and gave my reasons!

 

[Rosy]

Hmm, your opinion above when taken at face value seems to me to be saying that Ben is of questionable value to the club and therefore there is no reason not to trade him. I disagree.

You can disagree all you like djevv. That's your prerogative on a discussion forum. I didn't mention questionable value so yet again you've judged me wrongly. I said all players' should be weighed up in terms of value to the club and what we could get for them. I've said it before too. No player is untradable, even though I hate to see it done, if the price is right.

Laughable that you are trying to insinuate that I am picking on you or any other poster when I am merely posting an opinion on a footy board on the thread topic. My post actually referred to a number of peoples opinion - which I lumped together as the generalised opinion that Cousins is of little value to us other than what we can get for him. I didn't refer to you by name or rubbish that opinion either, I merely disagreed with it and gave my reasons!

I didn't insinuate you were picking on me. You did attribute opinions to me that I hadn't posted though. Generalisation or not you included me and you were wrong.

I didn't refer to you by name or rubbish that opinion either, I merely disagreed with it and gave my reasons!

You included me so therefore you disagreed with an opinion that I didn't have. :hihi

 

[Djevv]

You can disagree all you like djevv. That's your prerogative on a discussion forum. I didn't mention questionable value so yet again you've judged me wrongly. I said all players' should be weighed up in terms of value to the club and what we could get for them. I've said it before too. No player is untradable, even though I hate to see it done, if the price is right.

I agree with this, in fact I would consider trading Ben if a high enough pick were offered AND he agreed.

I didn't insinuate you were picking on me. You did attribute opinions to me that I hadn't posted though. Generalisation or not you included me and you were wrong.

You included me so therefore you disagreed with an opinion that I didn't have. :hihi

I suppose my opinion on Ben has to do with where I think the list is at and also the public statements by Lids and others of how much he is impacting them.

If I have misrepresented your views, like I said before, apologies.

 

[Rosy]

If I have misrepresented your views, like I said before, apologies.

Accepted.

 

[TigerForce]

What I haven't seen you do is accept that by not trading Cousins (should someone make an offer) there is a risk we could miss out on a player that would make us a much better team in the future.

How much further do we need to keep going with this 'hypothetical' question?

Have I previoulsy posted in another language or something? Instead of trading Cousins, let's trade another player (or players) to his value that the other club wants. Simple as that.

Obviously many here think we will be a genuine challenger over the next year or so with the messiah leading the charge.

Most stupid comment I've seen from you. No-one's said we will be a challenger in a year or two because of Cuz. Read properly.

My main interest on this thread is the grandiose claims about something that might or might not eventuate in the future.

Like an unknown 2nd round pick........

Ben Cousins isn't single handedly responsible for a players good form or tackle count. Ben being at the club for almost 12 months hasn't manifested in on-field success, super fit players or a dramatic form transfusion for players. Sure some of our kids are stepping up but most clubs have some good kids coming on and I've never heard a premiership win credited to swaggering.

I chuckle at claims of what Ben's influence will be in the future when I look back and see what the people making the claims said about getting Terry at the time, and how he'd be the saviour of particular players, a great tactician, a great motivator, won't have the boring, negative stuff we copped from Spud. Just examples from some who've been strong in their claims about Ben's likely influence. We can comment as much as we want about the future but that doesn't mean it will eventuate.

Despite what some may think Ben Cousins is a mere mortal. He's had a brilliant past career but he can't walk on water. He's a good player in our team but claims about his influence on our future are only hypothetical. Nobody can possibly know what the future holds.

Do I think Ben has some influence? Yeah probably, as do many people involved at the club. Fact is we haven't rocketed up the ladder. We've had a few wins against mostly ordinary teams, and the change of coach influence can't be dismissed there either. He hasn't been getting best on ground votes too often despite claims he's in his prime. Our fitness, which he's said to have a great influence on, is still being questioned.

We can talk all we like about auras and spirits and past performances elsewhere and influences on the future but it's all just words and opinion until it can be measured by on-field success.

A hypothetical question. If Ben wasn't at Richmond this year would our on-field performance have been much worse?

Rosy, sometimes I really wonder how closely you actually follow this club? Do you watch what players do and help each other during training? Do you watch how players communicate with each other during games? All behind the scenes stuff. I'm bewildered with some of your smart alec comments on what posters have said. Even if they are wrong about Wallace what's so 'amusing' to you? And with other comments on 'chuckle at claims on what Ben's influence will be in the future'....well haven't you heard of education?? What makes you think an unknown 2nd round pick would be any better than what Cuz is teaching our kids now? I should laugh at others thinking ONE UNKNOWN PLAYER would benefit us in the future compared to a premiership captain/ Brownlow Medallist who is TEACHING / EDUCATING / MENTORING our kids now. Something no other club has.

Cuz has obviously stepped up to somehow coach / mentor / advise our players AS THEY HAVE PUBLICLY STATED (how much louder and clearer do those words have to be !!!). He can't have done this in 12 months because it takes time to settle into a new club and get to know everyone around you. When this season is done with, he and the new coach will probably organise a big plan to show the kids how to train stronger (PRE- SEASON from November 2009) and it will benefit our players from 2010 onwards. Everybody, including myself, knew that this season would be a disaster because of Wallace's inept performance in the last 4 years and now he's gone. Why blame Cuz for us not winning games?? He's not with us to win games, he's with us to show our inexperienced kids how to play with skill.

 

[Baloo]

Cuz has obviously stepped up to somehow coach / mentor / advise our players AS THEY HAVE PUBLICLY STATED (how much louder and clearer do those words have to be !!!).

A bit like the players all saying life under Wallace was good eh.

The bottom line TF is that you have it fixed in your mind that it's undeniable that Cousins is imparting and impacting our other players in a way unseen or unheard of before at the RFC. Many of us aren't as convinced as you that this is the case. There is not point getting belligerent over this fact, it's just life, opinions and perceptions.

 

[Disco08]

Well said Baloo. All I'd like to see is people admit that this is a two-edged sword, not a forgone conclusion.

 

[gustiger12]

Oldie must be revelling in his own notoriety by now. ;D

 

[Tigers of Old]

Most stupid comment I've seen from you.

Would prefer if you kept the personal attacks out of it and stuck to the debate.

 

[TigerForce]

A bit like the players all saying life under Wallace was good eh.

The bottom line TF is that you have it fixed in your mind that it's undeniable that Cousins is imparting and impacting our other players in a way unseen or unheard of before at the RFC. Many of us aren't as convinced as you that this is the case. There is not point getting belligerent over this fact, it's just life, opinions and perceptions.

89% of voters do also, so I'm sure a lot of us, as Richmond supporters, can see the benefits.

Like I said, in my opinion, I'd trade other players for a 2nd round pick instead of someone who the players are learning from and it's ridiculous to compare Cuz's advice to Wallace's advice.

I just get beligerent on ridiculous comments such as "Cuz is the messiah" and "most on here voting for Cuz think we will win a flag in 2 years" .....not other people's opinions.

It's quite obvious that a thread like this was started by someone who was totally against a DRUG ADDICT joining our club.

Would prefer if you kept the personal attacks out of it and stuck to the debate.

Criticising your comment and using the word 'stupid' is too insulting or a personal attack for you is it??

 

[Baloo]

TF, I am amazed at how you are able to be so convinced about so many things when all I see are many shades of grey.

As for ridiculous comments, I don't mean this be personal, but I reckon you've got a fair few of them in this thread.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Criticising your comment and using the word 'stupid' is too insulting for you is it??

No issue with you criticising my comment.
You're obviously pretty passionate about this notion of trading him. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Doesn't mean one is more correct than the other though just because you type it iin caps and call folks stupid.

 

[TigerForce]

TF, I am amazed at how you are able to be so convinced about so many things when all I see are many shades of grey.

As for ridiculous comments, I don't mean this be personal, but I reckon you've got a fair few of them in this thread.

Should I, living in Melbourne watching the boys train with Cuz and watching games live, be seeing what you see living in Singapore? We all see different ways.

Name the ridiculous comments.

No issue with you criticising my comment.
You're obviously pretty passionate about this notion of trading him. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Doesn't mean one is more correct than the other though just because you type it iin caps and call folks stupid.

I never said YES or NO is correct and where have I called folks stupid?

I'm typing caps because that's what our players have publicly stated. If they are benefitting from Cuz , why take it away for christ sake?? In this case, if we were offered a 2nd round pick, then use other players because not every club wants Cuz especially at his age.

 

[Rosy]

Do you watch what players do and help each other during training?

No I don't live in Melbourne but feel free to enlighten me. Do you watch every training session? Which other players help each other and what do they do? What does Ben do that nobody else does?

Why blame Cuz for us not winning games?? He's not with us to win games, he's with us to show our inexperienced kids how to play with skill.

Why is he on our list and not a skills coach then? Every player on our list is there with the aim of on-field success i.e. winning games. I haven't blamed him for us not winning games anyway have I? What is it with people making false claims rather than sticking with facts? I haven't even said we should trade him.

 

[TigerForce]

No I don't live in Melbourne but feel free to enlighten me. Do you watch every training session? Which other players help each other and what do they do? What does Ben do that nobody else does?

Doesn't have to be 'every' training session but the ones I've seen and even during games, other people on here, supporters at a football match including myself have seen him 'mentor' the players, advise them on what to do during games just as a captain does in a huddle (most saw last week against Essendon). We are talking about a premiership captain and Brownlow Medallist who has experienced what playing in a finals/ premiership side is like, who has elite skills and who is down to earth (no high-profile such as Browny). He is an 'extra' coach for us. Why would our players or Jade bother to admit in public that Cuz is worthy for us (just as Lids has on one of the journos article on here) if it wasn't important?

Why is he on our list and not a skills coach then?

What type of question is that ?

Every player on our list is there with the aim of on-field success i.e. winning games. I haven't blamed him for us not winning games anyway have I?

"Fact is we haven't rocketed up the ladder" ....seems more related to Cuz's influence than about our coaches' performance.

 

[Rosy]

You haven't answered my question TF. You asked me why blame Ben for us not winning games? Have I don't that?

 

[TigerForce]

You haven't answered my question TF. You asked me why blame Ben for us not winning games? Have I don't that?

"Fact is we haven't rocketed up the ladder"....seems more related to Cuz's influence than about our coaches' performance.

 

[Rosy]

"Fact is we haven't rocketed up the ladder"....seems more related to Cuz's influence than about our coaches' performance.

Not one word of "blame" there at all TF.