Trading Cousins? - Poll.

[Harry]

Yeah we are rebuilding but where are we in the rebuild? I think we are well along into it

this is where the problem lies.

ask yourself how many a graders do we have?

deledio, cotchin.......? that's about it.

this is where we fall down all the time, we think we are thereabouts with our list and take the foot off the rebuilding process pedal when we are not even close and take the top up / persist with mediocre players route.

don't overestimate the quality and depth of our list, and if the club does then it'll end in tears....again.

 

[TigerForce]

The vast majority of players don't produce their best form for at least 4 years after being drafted. I could give you some examples but you're just going to have to take my word for it.

Anyway TF, if you think our current group of 18-23 year olds are good enough to mature into a consistent finals contender without major additions to the list, good for you. I wish I could share your enthusiasm.

Disco, you and I are speaking like we're Nostradamus here. ;D

My opinion is to keep Cuz for what he's worth and extra picks can come from when he retires (assuming end of 2011). Next year we will be a bottom 8 club (I reckon from 10-14) and possibly rise to 8-12 in 2011, so we will get extra picks but only if we TRADE players we don't need (by 2011, maybe Foley, Edwards, Connors, White, Patto? could be tradeable)

Everybody trades in different ways and everybody makes mistakes. We've made too many mistakes especially in lacking true leadership skills which is why Cuz is a great value for us now. If no players (or coach) mentioned Cuz's input or if it were all just spin, then it would be obvious that he's just going through the motions with us and would be worth trading.

It all depends on what the next coach will do with development.

 

[Djevv]

As with the others who've made false claims about me on this thread I'll ask you to post a link to where I've said that. They've refused to oblige and I suspect you won't be able to either because unless I have Alzheimers and have forgotten I'm confident I haven't said that at all.

Well I can't find anything specific, I've just had the impression you were arguing for trading Ben. Sorry if I 'done you wrong' but I was only generalising. What is your opinion on the topic of the thread?

 

[the claw]

this is where the problem lies.

ask yourself how many a graders do we have?

deledio, cotchin.......? that's about it.

this is where we fall down all the time, we think we are thereabouts with our list and take the foot off the rebuilding process pedal when we are not even close and take the top up / persist with mediocre players route.

don't overestimate the quality and depth of our list, and if the club does then it'll end in tears....again.

yep spot on harold. most refuse or cant properly categorise our players. to think we are even close well its absurd and a repeat of past mistakes.
one or two kids show some promise just like many kids at other clubs and we have it made. : plus we have ben cousins.lol.

ya know ive come to realise that we will be having these debates next yr the yr after 5yrs and even 10 yrs down the track. why because we keep on making the same fundamental mistakes.
we fail to heed the simple lessons of history.
i believe they really do deserve all the mediocrity that comes their way, the stupidity is mind numbing. im to the point where i cant be bothered.
i really am just fed up and tired of this club and its supporters who refuse to learn from past mistakes.
as for this site im just as tired of going over the same things every single yr. yep every yr its the same you can only go so far with people who can only remember as far back as last week and think as far forward as this week.i hope they can remain happy in their do as we always do mediocrity cocoon.

 

[Djevv]

this is where the problem lies.

ask yourself how many a graders do we have?

deledio, cotchin.......? that's about it.

this is where we fall down all the time, we think we are thereabouts with our list and take the foot off the rebuilding process pedal when we are not even close and take the top up / persist with mediocre players route.

don't overestimate the quality and depth of our list, and if the club does then it'll end in tears....again.

Yep not many Bona fide A-graders yet but after 5 years of the rebuild we have the beginnings of a core with reasonable structure and loads of potential. No doubting we need to get really serious about getting many more kids to the club. I have no trouble seeing us as top 4 in 3-2 years as the core matures and we bring on more quality youth. Things can turn very quickly when you get the structures right.

Back on the topic I think there are plenty of players I would shop before Benny, but if we were offered a sub 20 pick I would seriously think about trading him, if he was willing.

Anyway answer me this what was it that finally made the Saints contenders this year, was it the cattle, the age of the list or something intangible?

 

[TigerForce]

Besides what Disco08 says, most YES voters fail to provide common sense on this thread's question.

As for you claw you might as well give up with your duplicated whinges day in day out. Since when do the supporters cop the blame for trading players?

Geez, ONE 2nd round pick....ONE PLAYER.... is going to make us a better side in years to come....pfft!

 

[the claw]

Yep not many Bona fide A-graders yet but after 5 years of the rebuild we have the beginnings of a core with reasonable structure and loads of potential. No doubting we need to get really serious about getting many more kids to the club. I have no trouble seeing us as top 4 in 3-2 years as the core matures and we bring on more quality youth. Things can turn very quickly when you get the structures right.

Back on the topic I think there are plenty of players I would shop before Benny, but if we were offered a sub 20 pick I would seriously think about trading him, if he was willing.

Anyway answer me this what was it that finally made the Saints contenders this year, was it the cattle, the age of the list or something intangible?

can you name the so called core the very good the elite and just as importantly the below standard players that make up the list.

we dont have a core group a handful maybe but not a group. our kids are developmental with no guarantees. none can be called core group until they prove themselves at that minimal level of acceptance. we have two elite and thats being kind. they both are in their 30s. we have one very good player in deledio who may reach elite level we have another in development who may be the same in cotchin.
the question is how many are genuine core group players. and how many are likely to become core group as a minimum. the work to be done is well we are a bottom 4 side thats our true position that in itself tells of the work to be done.

 

[Djevv]

can you name the so called core the very good the elite and just as importantly the below standard players that make up the list.

Lets focus on the whipping boys for a minute: McGuane, Polo, White, King, MacMahon, Pattison, Graham, Tuck, Hislop, Thompson and I am probably forgetting a few - I think with a good coach, firm direction and a simple game plan EVEN these guys can play a part in the future. It's a team sport and if these guys can learn to play for each other and develop/improve their defensive side they can become solid core players.

Anyway as for being delusional, you are as guilty as I. You think tanking can fix a basket case list :hihi. Haven't you forgotten something? Gold Coast and W.Sydney??

Please read my posts too and you will note that I agree with your core message which is that we need kids on the list and plenty of them!

 

[rockstar_tiger]

"Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing." - Ben Cousins

He is a champion leader of men. Just watch our culture change before your very eyes...

All the draft picks in the world won't bring us a flag if we don't do something about our culture. By all reports (and there's a lot) Ben is having a big influence on everyone.

Therefore, this champion leader must be kept around our club as long as possible. Our culture nearly swallowed up Deledio (by his own amission of becoming lazy and not confronting his weaknesses this season) - I bring this up to show how important club culture is, and how much impact is has on everyone's performance.

We don't have a choice. We don't have the luxery of trading away Ben Cousins. We need his qualities at our club for us to succeed, and by the time we find them elsewhere (and implement them from trial and error) this current batch of talent could be too old and it will take another 8 year rebuild at least. It will be 2020+ if we don't find these qualities from somewhere within the next couple of years.

It couldn't be made any easier for us! Ben Cousins landed on our doorstep! But we are a club that makes a living out of stuffing up the most simplest of operations.

It would be so typical Richmond to trade away a quality leader like Cuz after the influence he's had and continues to have.

 

[newyorktiger]

Our culture nearly swallowed up Deledio (by his own admission of becoming lazy and not confronting his weaknesses this season) - I bring this up to show how important club culture is, and how much impact is has on everyone's performance.

And we talk about why players, for the most part have not progressed over the last 20 odd years.

 

[Disco08]

Therefore, this champion leader must be kept around our club as long as possible. Our culture nearly swallowed up Deledio (by his own amission of becoming lazy and not confronting his weaknesses this season) - I bring this up to show how important club culture is, and how much impact is has on everyone's performance.

Good point. Lucky Rawlings and the leadership group stepped in to wake him up.

Sorry, but I think saying Cousins can single handedly turn around 29 years of losing culture is a massive leap of faith. FWIW, I also think you can blame Richmond's pathetic list management before blaming poor culture for our lack of success every time.

Besides what Disco08 says, most YES voters fail to provide common sense on this thread's question.

I think the basic point - trading a 31 year old for a second rounder is a no brainer when you're rebuilding - is correct. It's then a matter of how much importance you place on what Cousins can do intangibly to the playing list and its future. Some obviously think he can do enough to turn 'no brainer' into 'stupid decision only idiots would think of' whereas others aren't as convinced.

Geez, ONE 2nd round pick....ONE PLAYER.... is going to make us a better side in years to come....pfft!

Do you think we'd be a better side if we'd been in this situation 10 or so years ago and picked up Kerr, Kane Cornes, Chapman or Steve Johnson? Of course one pick can you us a better side in years to come if the player we pick is a good one. Yes there's a risk that we'll pick a dud, everyone acknowledges that. What I haven't seen you do is accept that by not trading Cousins (should someone make an offer) there is a risk we could miss out on a player that would make us a much better team in the future.

 

[mb64]

Can't believe this ridiculous thread is still going.

 

[Rosy]

When you get 89% or more in favour of trading Cuz I will then respond.

Why base it on a majority vote? You were in favour of getting Terry as coach at the time when he had a lot of support on here. That, along with CC being voted in, show a majority vote doesn't necessarily equate to the best decision in the interests of our club. I am happy to say I was in the minority both times.

 

[Rosy]

Can't believe this ridiculous thread is still going.

I'm finding it really interesting actually. Not so much the actual subject matter but the general claims and comments. Very entertaining and at times quite amusing.

 

[Rosy]

"Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing." - Ben Cousins

I'm sure most of us, and the players and staff at the club, feel that way (apart from the tank-engines of course) but we haven't been doing much of it just the same. We've found out many times that words are easy, the nature of the beast is we've been fed spin and positive comments for years, but we still haven't won too many games.

 

[Tigers of Old]

to suggest that we should refuse a second round draft pick for a 32 year old while we are in the middle of a serious rebuild is completely insane.

Here here Harry.

Obviously many here think we will be a genuine challenger over the next year or so with the messiah leading the charge.

"Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing." - Ben Cousins

He is a champion leader of men. Just watch our culture change before your very eyes...

Patience? Pffft.

Good luck to the new coach. :spin

 

[Tigers of Old]

I could understand folks thinking that other clubs would be mad to give up a 2nd rounder for a 32 year old.

What I can't understand is folks thinking that we shouldn't do the trade if it was offered given where we are at in terms of our list and ability to challenge for a premiership.

Believe it or not we've had Benny on our list all of this year. Where has it gotten us?

 

[rockstar_tiger]

Good point. Lucky Rawlings and the leadership group stepped in to wake him up.

Sorry, but I think saying Cousins can single handedly turn around 29 years of losing culture is a massive leap of faith.

Agree wholeheartedly, if you put all your hopes into a messiah then you'll be disappointed almost every time.

But the amount of impact he is having is enormous, this is a fact. As you said, it depends on how much impact you think he's having in order to judge his worth.

Also good to note that Ben works well with Jade Rawlings, either at Coburg or being challenged in the seniors. Had a very good relationship with Worsfold too, this shows while he went off the rails with drugs in a football sense he follows orders from above as well as you could hope.

I'm finding it really interesting actually. Not so much the actual subject matter but the general claims and comments. Very entertaining and at times quite amusing.

With all due respect, you also found it amusing when people thought we should bring Cousins to the club in the first place.

They were right all along... amusing indeed.

 

[Rosy]

Well I can't find anything specific, I've just had the impression you were arguing for trading Ben. Sorry if I 'done you wrong' but I was only generalising. What is your opinion on the topic of the thread?

So you generalise and attribute false claims to me but haven't even read my opinion on the topic of the thread? Unreal.

For your benefit

There have been plenty of hypothetical claims made. FACT is Ben has played in 3 winning games for us and the team is worse performed, at this stage, since he arrived than it was last season...and I haven't even voted to trade him. All players should be looked at and weighed up in terms of value to the club and what we could get for them and I don't think Ben should be exempt from that. I don't expect him to be traded just the same.

My main interest on this thread is the grandiose claims about something that might or might not eventuate in the future. Ben Cousins isn't single handedly responsible for a players good form or tackle count. Ben being at the club for almost 12 months hasn't manifested in on-field success, super fit players or a dramatic form transfusion for players. Sure some of our kids are stepping up but most clubs have some good kids coming on and I've never heard a premiership win credited to swaggering.

I chuckle at claims of what Ben's influence will be in the future when I look back and see what the people making the claims said about getting Terry at the time, and how he'd be the saviour of particular players, a great tactician, a great motivator, won't have the boring, negative stuff we copped from Spud. Just examples from some who've been strong in their claims about Ben's likely influence. We can comment as much as we want about the future but that doesn't mean it will eventuate.

Despite what some may think Ben Cousins is a mere mortal. He's had a brilliant past career but he can't walk on water. He's a good player in our team but claims about his influence on our future are only hypothetical. Nobody can possibly know what the future holds.

Do I think Ben has some influence? Yeah probably, as do many people involved at the club. Fact is we haven't rocketed up the ladder. We've had a few wins against mostly ordinary teams, and the change of coach influence can't be dismissed there either. He hasn't been getting best on ground votes too often despite claims he's in his prime. Our fitness, which he's said to have a great influence on, is still being questioned.

We can talk all we like about auras and spirits and past performances elsewhere and influences on the future but it's all just words and opinion until it can be measured by on-field success.

A hypothetical question. If Ben wasn't at Richmond this year would our on-field performance have been much worse?

 

[Tigers of Old]

A hypothetical question. If Ben wasn't at Richmond this year would our on-field performance have been much worse?

Probably. Might even have landed us a couple of priority picks and we wouldn't even be having this discussion but that's for another thread.