Trading Cousins? - Poll.

[Dyer Disciple]

Would you mind answering my question BTW?

Hadn't forgotten it, was mulling it over.

A different question to ToO's of course and a tough one as well. I mean Rich and Selwood were Top 10 picks that were very highly rated, no player will be that highly rated and drop to a second round. You can always find bargains/under the radar types of course like Kerr and many others but those two are very successful juniors and in another echelon again.

This is where we come back to something I have had many debates on about here and I know I will be unpopular with my view. The smart move would be to say yes of course. It's almost madness to pass on it. However I think there comes a unpopular point to outsiders where list management has to give way to the values of the club. If cousins wanted to go or we didn't think we had much in him left to offer (as you were saying in previous days) sure. However if he didn't want to go I wouldn't do it, no.

Not just because of feel good sentiment, but more to the point that is how highly I rate his ability to fix our leadership problem that has been prevalent at our club for so long. You can name a gun player and that is all well and good but I would come back to you and say, would you rather 4 gun players and ok leadership or 3 gun players and a gun leadership group. I would prefer the latter.

I realise that might seem barking mad but to me success at footy clubs is about a lot of intangibles on top of the obvious talked about factors like talent, coaching etc. Teamwork is the most important thing and means more than game plans and drills.

It's not a great value or consistant message within the club to give a guy a shot at redemption, he prooves himself, our young leaders rave about him and are emphatic they want him around as long as possible to learn from him and we turn around and say "Sorry something sexier came along that can get us some more kicks on game day".

Of course in Selwood you have a gun leader too...so you have boxed me into a corner there in saying I would take Selwood but maybe not Rich (i don't know much about his leader ship abilites but Selwood looks VERY special). Heh Heh, of course it is a hypothetical that would never happen though and true fantasy land stuff.

The odds of you selecting a Rich or Selwood type with a second round pick are very slim. Which is why I wouldn't do the second round deal.

 

[Tigerbob]

I don't know about others but I'm not saying that, but you have to appreciate the worth of something while you have it and someone like Ben is of a calibre we have not seen in our jumper for a very long time in terms of work ethic and experience at the highest levels of success.

Exactly right.

We haven't had a guy like Cousins in 30 years. Call me young but I wasn't there for Royce, Francis or any other previous great leader of this club.

A guy that has Elite leadership, ultimate success and experience. And he is emparting it onto our young guys!

Yet we want to scrap him? For a unknown commodity? Does not make sense to me. If you go to the club, like me and you have done mate, you can see the influence he is having, I'm telling others, you can actually see it!

Everyday that passes, Cousins is feeling more and more like a Tiger, and his influence is growing. How long will it last? Who knows, but he is here, with us right now, you gotta pinch yourself that Ben Cousins is a Tiger and it's working!

 

[Disco08]

Thanks for the response DD. Good thoughts and good to get some sort of idea of the value you place on what Cousins offers intangibly to the playing group.

 

[gustiger12]

I have been a pro Cousins advocate from the start but to suggest he has some sort of messianic influence on the playing group is ludicrous. If the youngsters rely on Cousins to teach them how to play it says little for the players and we may as well sack all our coaches.

It was interesting to read Campbells comments that Cousins has almost taken on the role as his defacto assistant and that at times Bens says things that Cambell wants to but, Ben carries more weight. (Thats a worry, and maybe why he pulled out of the race ;D)

Ben has those intangibles that good leaders have. (and no I was not previously a supporter of Ben but happy to keep eating my humble pie on this one.)

 

[TigerForce]

Not just because of feel good sentiment, but more to the point that is how highly I rate his ability to fix our leadership problem that has been prevalent at our club for so long. You can name a gun player and that is all well and good but I would come back to you and say, would you rather 4 gun players and ok leadership or 3 gun players and a gun leadership group. I would prefer the latter.

I realise that might seem barking mad but to me success at footy clubs is about a lot of intangibles on top of the obvious talked about factors like talent, coaching etc. Teamwork is the most important thing and means more than game plans and drills.

It's not a great value or consistant message within the club to give a guy a shot at redemption, he prooves himself, our young leaders rave about him and are emphatic they want him around as long as possible to learn from him and we turn around and say "Sorry something sexier came along that can get us some more kicks on game day".

That is the main point why we need to keep him. This is not because of my opinion but because of what players have publicly stated. We need to build a strong foundation with the talented kids we have now along with the experience of a classy, premiership player that Cuz is.

Has anybody compared what Cuz's leadership has been like to Richo's, Brown's or Johnson's ??

I have been a pro Cousins advocate from the start but to suggest he has some sort of messianic influence on the playing group is ludicrous. If the youngsters rely on Cousins to teach them how to play it says little for the players and we may as well sack all our coaches.

Who said he's a messiah? Sacking our coaches is exactly what's happened and happening unless you haven't noticed.

 

[Harry]

to suggest that we should refuse a second round draft pick for a 32 year old while we are in the middle of a serious rebuild is completely insane. i don't care how good the player is and let's please not over emphasise the influence he is having on the other players. it's indicative of how desperate for instant success and how short sighted our supporters are. the club must take a disciplined long term approach and sacrifice the now for the long term future. however it's clear that we are, yet again, incapable of doing this as meaningless late season wins are more important than draft picks.

 

[Harry]

in addition to this it's been reported that a harsh word or two from the coach and the leadership group has made deledio pull his finger out, not the fact that cousins is playing next to him.

a hard arsed coach, and discipline is what this club needs, not an ageing former premiership player who has 1 year left in him

 

[rockstar_tiger]

It comes down to stock vs development of that stock. You absolutely must be able to develop that talent to their full potential, or you'll go nowhere, period.

Ben increases the overall abilities of many players on our team by changing our culture and influencing their habits. He gives us the best chance possible of getting the most out of our players.

A 2nd round draft pick would add to our stock, yes.

But it will be 10 years before we have any success if we stuff up this batch of talent by not developing them to their full potential. If we miss out on an extra second round pick, how much would it really set us back? We'd still already have 1st and 2nd round picks. Would it set our club back 10 years? Not a chance.

We could have all the top draft picks in the world, but it counts for NOTHING if we don't have a serious, implicit belief drilled into every player on our list. Ben Cousins can and is providing just that.

 

[Harry]

Ben Cousins can and is providing just that.

How do you know this?

Look, I'd keep Cousins on for a year or two, but if a club made a serious offer of a second round pick for him, where we can pick up a potential 10-15 year player, then we'd be absolutely crazy to say no.

 

[Rosy]

How do you know this?

Cos Lids laid 7 tackles last week.

 

[TigerForce]

How do you know this?

Look, I'd keep Cousins on for a year or two, but if a club made a serious offer of a second round pick for him, where we can pick up a potential 10-15 year player, then we'd be absolutely crazy to say no.

Trade Richo, Brown or Bowden then. Same age as Cuz but less value when it comes to leadership and skills.

This 2nd round pick is starting to sound more important than a priority pick........maybe he's the messiah....

 

[BrisTiger24]

Trade Richo, Brown or Bowden then. Same age as Cuz but less value when it comes to leadership and skills.

I'm not in the trade Cousins boat but it could be argued that those blokes not only have less value when it comes to leadership and skills but also less trade value as a result.

 

[btoz_01]

Over 89% against trading Cuz..... the figures speak for themselves.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

It comes down to stock vs development of that stock. You absolutely must be able to develop that talent to their full potential, or you'll go nowhere, period.

Ben increases the overall abilities of many players on our team by changing our culture and influencing their habits. He gives us the best chance possible of getting the most out of our players.

A 2nd round draft pick would add to our stock, yes.

But it will be 10 years before we have any success if we stuff up this batch of talent by not developing them to their full potential. If we miss out on an extra second round pick, how much would it really set us back? We'd still already have 1st and 2nd round picks. Would it set our club back 10 years? Not a chance.

We could have all the top draft picks in the world, but it counts for NOTHING if we don't have a serious, implicit belief drilled into every player on our list. Ben Cousins can and is providing just that.

Good work Rockstar. :clap

i don't care how good the player is and let's please not over emphasise the influence he is having on the other players. it's indicative of how desperate for instant success and how short sighted our supporters are.

Bizarre post. How is concentrating on the development of our players (something so many on here bemoan we don't do enough of) and developing a strong leadership group get viewed as short sighted? I respect your different opinion but I don't get how you see us as short sighted when everything

You are carrying on like people are saying Ben should be retained because of his foot talent and ability to inflence games and maybe get us a few extra wins in a season. No one has said that.

Over emphasise the influence he has? No i would think there are more people guilty of under emphasising it, since the things being mentioned positively about his influence are documented facts and said by umpteen people at the club IN DETAIL in many cases. (March, Rawlings, Campbell, Cotch, Lids, Jackson, Newman, need I go on?) Whereas the people under emphasising are really stating it on no fact or record, but mere opinion.

Everyone wants to talk about how long do we have to not master the draft for and play games online about how to get the most/earliest picks.

I'd like to talk about our lack of leadership for numerous past incarnations of the club at an elite level. Our poor culture and need to concentrate on development as much as recruitment in the future. We have someone at the club for the first time in years who can really help us with this and some want to toss him out for that earth shatteringly important extra second round draft pick.

I think we can work on everything this year evenly and systematically and not get too over excited about draft picks at the cost of other things as well.

 

[TigerForce]

Bizarre post. How is concentrating on the development of our players (something so many on here bemoan we don't do enough of) and developing a strong leadership group get viewed as short sighted? I respect your different opinion but I don't get how you see us as short sighted when everything

You are carrying on like people are saying Ben should be retained because of his foot talent and ability to inflence games and maybe get us a few extra wins in a season. No one has said that.

Over emphasise the influence he has? No i would think there are more people guilty of under emphasising it, since the things being mentioned positively about his influence are documented facts and said by umpteen people at the club IN DETAIL in many cases. (March, Rawlings, Campbell, Cotch, Lids, Jackson, Newman, need I go on?) Whereas the people under emphasising are really stating it on no fact or record, but mere opinion.

Everyone wants to talk about how long do we have to not master the draft for and play games online about how to get the most/earliest picks.

I'd like to talk about our lack of leadership for numerous past incarnations of the club at an elite level. Our poor culture and need to concentrate on development as much as recruitment in the future. We have someone at the club for the first time in years who can really help us with this and some want to toss him out for that earth shatteringly important extra second round draft pick.

I think we can work on everything this year evenly and systematically and not get too over excited about draft picks at the cost of other things as well.

Well said DD.

Cuz is just an informal coach who cost us nothing. If a 2nd round pick was offered, we can negotiate to give away other players equal to the value of Cuz...all depending on what other clubs need (e.g. 3 or 4 above average & average players = Cuz).

 

[Tiger74]

Trade Richo, Brown or Bowden then. Same age as Cuz but less value when it comes to leadership and skills.

This 2nd round pick is starting to sound more important than a priority pick........maybe he's the messiah....

Reason Richo, Brown, and Bowden don't have their name on this thread is they have no trade value. Richo is too old for a new club to seriously consider (and has said he will retire once done at RFC), and Brown and Bowden are done.

Cousins has trade value, these three don't

 

[momentai]

Over 89% against trading Cuz..... the figures speak for themselves.

And I didnt even vote :nopity

 

[Disco08]

Over 89% against trading Cuz..... the figures speak for themselves.

What do they say?

As I've said elsewhere you don't need to look too hard to find instances where a majority was severely wrong in retrospect. The 2005 (?) RFC board elections are a good, recent and close to home example.

 

[TigerForce]

Reason Richo, Brown, and Bowden don't have their name on this thread is they have no trade value. Richo is too old for a new club to seriously consider (and has said he will retire once done at RFC), and Brown and Bowden are done.

Cousins has trade value, these three don't

I'm quite sure the football world knows that Richo would be a huge want at a few clubs even though he's 35 next year.

Same with Brown.

 

[Rosy]

I'm quite sure the football world knows that Richo would be a huge want at a few clubs even though he's 35 next year.

Which few clubs do "the football world" know want Richo at 35 and how do they know it?