Trading Cousins? - Poll. | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Trading Cousins? - Poll.

Would you trade Cousins for a 2nd round draft pick?


  • Total voters
    303
  • Poll closed .
Tigerbob said:
We don't get a chance at Richmond to get many legends through that big black and yellow door at Punt Road, we finally have one, and we want to get rid of him? As I said, I understand where your coming from, just not the logic.

This is where I fundamentally disagree and reckon most are simply starstruck by what Ben was rather than what he offers going forward.

98% of his legendary achievements were for another club altogether.

He is NOT a Richmond legend, at 31 nor will he be.

I'm hoping we find Richmond's next Ben Cousins through the draft and the most likely way for that to happen is by gaining valuable draft picks.
 
Liverpool said:
Short term pain in not getting some unknown kid as a 2nd round pick for the long term culture of the club changing.

Totally agree, no point in recruiting kids if we are not addressing our culture at the same time. EVERYONE I believe wants to recruit to maximum efficiency, I am sure we ALL would liek a extra second round. However we need to also change our culture and development of kids however at the same time which the club seems to really be focussing on now which is great.
 
Dyer Disciple said:
Totally agree, no point in recruiting kids if we are not addressing our culture at the same time. EVERYONE I believe wants to recruit to maximum efficiency, I am sure we ALL would liek a extra second round. However we need to also change our culture and development of kids however at the same time which the club seems to really be focussing on now which is great.

I am aware that you're not a big fan of Jade's to take over as senior coach and that's fine but he seems to have had as much impact on the playing group this year as anyone since he took over as coach, so all I am asking is where do you draw the line on the importance of influence?
 
Tigers of Old said:
This is where I fundamentally disagree and reckon most are simply starstruck by what Ben was rather than what he offers going forward.

98% of his legendary achievements were for another club altogether.

He is NOT a Richmond legend, at 31 nor will he be.

I'm hoping we find Richmond's next Ben Cousins through the draft and the most likely way for that to happen is by gaining valuable draft picks.

See you are seeing Ben Cousins in Black and White. He is doing more than what you see on the ground.

When you realise this, and see it at the club first hand, you will see he is not a legend just because of his playing ability. His starstruck phase is over and work has commenced.
 
Tigerbob said:
See you are seeing Ben Cousins in Black and White.

Are Collingwood still interested? ;D ;)

Whilst Ben's no doubt had some influence such as Sugar before him (perhaps to a lesser degree) I still think what you say is totally unquantifiable and IMO not enough to say he's an untradeable player if someone was prepared to pay.
 
Tigers of Old said:
Are Collingwood still interested? ;D ;)

Whilst Ben's no doubt had some influence such as Sugar before him (perhaps to a lesser degree) I still think what you say is totally unquantifiable and IMO not enough to say he's an untradeable player if someone was prepared to pay.

Philosophies changed with Sugar, like they have with everyone else trying to change the culture of the players the past 30 years.

In 6 months philosophies have changed but more importantly actions have commenced with Ben Cousins.

It is priceless what he is doing. Hence why he is a once in a generation player. Much more than what's on the field.
 
Tigerbob said:
Philosophies changed with Sugar, like they have with everyone else trying to change the culture of the players the past 30 years.

In 6 months philosophies have changed but more importantly actions have commenced with Ben Cousins.

It is priceless what he is doing. Hence why he is a once in a generation player. Much more than what's on the field.

Why were we still crap when Wallace was in charge if this influence was so great?

Why has Deledio struggled by his own admission until 3 weeks ago before Rawlings threatened to drop him?

I take on board some of what you say bobby but I still think you are exaggerating the impact Cuz has had.

I guess we'll agree to disagree as you say and leave it at that.

Ultimately if he stays on I'll support him but if we got a satisfactory return for draft picks, at this stage of his career and based on where we are at, then I would be fine with that also.
 
Disco08 said:
How do you know how long it takes to impart one's full wealth of Aussie Rules knowledge? It's a sport, not Micro-seismology. So while he may not be able to impart it all in one year, I reckon it's pretty clear that he can impart a fair bit of it. How can you be so certain that what's left to teach is so much more valuable than a second round pick? Can you quantify the value at all? Would you turn down Cousins for Rich just like Livers for example?

Could not disagree more strongly mate. Forgive me if I get the wrong impression but the way you said that, it read to me as "it's just a sport". If we were talking about surburban footy I would agree with you. However we are not.

Before I elaborate allow me to point out, footy tactics wise, should be relatively simple. A lot of buzz words and nonsense gets uttered these days to make it more complicated than what it is, HOWEVER, the simplicity of football does not translate to the athletes development, preparation and individual performance
itself.

There is nothing simple about elite althletes. We are not talking about their average intelligence, we are talking about the wealth of discipline, behavioural management, knowledge, experience and science they need in todays sports environment.

I know from experience firsthand myself, athletes and human nature as a extension to that, don't learn all they can learn from someone (or even the majority of it) within a year of exposure to them. There is a lot more to it than teaching them a few tricks, techniques, setting example etc....

For example, Benny would assist in the following areas (talking solely from a example/teaching/leader influence, not his playing contribution or marketing blah blah);

- His presence/aura supports subconciously in the back of the kids mind what you aspire to profile/success/reputation wise (personal demons n/a here)

- His constant example on the training track drives kids to want to be better and gives them a measuring stick to elite preparation

- We don't have many players who can give first hand, detailed accounts of inside opposition clubs/big games/games. (I've heard Ben tell tales to players of other famous players training habits/freak abilities and I am sure he has told them many more along the lines of freak players playing injured or through grief etc in big games, these stories a) build camradrie b) make the right athletes hungry c) gives them more examples of how to be successful or want to be a part of successful atmopsheres)

- His gut running on the day constantly reverbrates through players heads. The more he plays (he has only played what 8 games? the more players get to see of him do it). Players aren't robots. They don't take in information 100% everytime they see it, on average they generally absorb things through constant reinforcement. This takes time. Polo might have had a bad patch with relationship or a ill family member and not be 100% focussed on his awareness/efforts, later down the track when he is, Cousins is still there demanding more of everyone, showing that while he is under a microscope internally and externally he is still performing 100% everytime he gets out there. That makes a strong impression on players and takes time to sink in and mean something more than the easy comment "Gee, he runs and works hard". Players can have long periods of being self absorbed, weeks, months, a season or years. Some you can recover with someone like Ben always there in their moments of self honestly/clarity.

- Ben is a fitness freak. He is a walking encylopedia of conditioning, fitness and recovery tips. He is not a instructor though and nor is it his job to systematically impart that knowledge to kids. Therefore he is more like a sponge that takes time to slowly squeeze the water out of him. The more he is around the more chances there are he spots something, has a conversation, etc etc where he can impart his experience/knowledge to a kid. Cotchin over trained in the pre-season, Cousins wasn't that tight with them at that point. You can bet he will be next pre-season, it's highly unlikely it would happen again if it was someone training with Cousins (as i bet Cotch will) due to the fact Cousins can say. "Look ease up mate, trust me, you have to learn what your body can handle and you can over train as much as under train" or he can say "Look if you really want to train, do some flexibility instead, you are running too much". Cousins is a fitness freak but he made mistakes early in his career, same as Cotch did.

- Cousins has inside experience/knowledge tactically on players/teams that not many of our players has. That often used quote from Jackson about what annoys you the most might be a edited version of something i heard. Before the West Coast game Jackson went up to Cousins and asked what annoys Kerr the most and he told him what he hates. Cousins wouldn't just have that info on old teammates, he has a wealth of experience firsthand or from discussions on other players strengths/weaknesses.

- There is the obvious technique, tactics, running patterns/strategies etc that many might refer to in saying surely he can teach that or the bulk of it already but it's not just about the players there either. It's also about the kids we draft this year, let our Jackson's concentrate more on their own game and development predominantly and statesman (may i use that term? :hihi) like Cousins impart knowledge and mentor green kids more on the training track/field.

- Cousins is a walking example of leadership. He is a throwback to the old side of football that still has a place (Rawlings also believes this) where players respond to emotion. That can't be fabricated for a year window to impart on kids, it can only be used selectively/sparingly not as a weekly session. You have someone who excels at that around the club all the time, every tough situation, every game where you are being challenged, every personal hurdle, is like unto a titanic problem of it's own when you are facing it at the time. Cousins has a elite rep for being able to demand the best of people, challenge them, inspire them with words. You can't have exposure for that long enough when you are young developing side, you certainly want them exposed to that longer than a year. It teaches the Cotchins and Jacksons and Lids how to go from setting great examples to being great leaders of men if they want to or have a natural inclination to do so.

Football clubs are dynamic places full of cliques, egos, self esteem problems and mental demons. It takes time to sort through all that and make a real lasting impact as a leader/teacher/mentor. You can have a sudden and immediate impact, sure. However if it is not reinforced over time and ingrained into habit it all fizzles to nothing and is sadly wasted opportunities. That reinforcement takes longer than a year, especially when it is from someone like Cousins who has had a host of unique circumstances that has dluted the impact he has been able to make.

That's why his impact is already becoming profound and people around the club raving about it. He is starting to blossom and find his niche in the club. He is starting to get over his self esteem issues and come out of his shell (he was gun shy around the club despite his profile/ego/rep) and more importantly it takes time to build personal trust and friendships and with them comes a more openess to ideas, learning and getting access to his experience. I hazard a guess Ben didn't want to throw his weight around too much early in the club also or be seen as a know it all and kept to himself partly for this also. he felt he had to proove to the club he belonged there and was committed and got his head down. Now he has proven that committment and earned respect from possible doubters or felt comfortable in his mind, he will contribute a lot more to the club.

I think it is incredibly simplistic to say he can impart most of what he offers in the year he is there and I think it is grossly wrong. I don't think anyone with a wealth of knowledge can do that let alone someone who came to the club in the circumstances he did.
 
Tigers of Old said:
I am aware that you're not a big fan of Jade's to take over as senior coach and that's fine but he seems to have had as much impact on the playing group this year as anyone since he took over as coach, so all I am asking is where do you draw the line on the importance of influence?

I think you have a slight wrong impression. Jade continues to increasingly impress me in some aspects and I have said he is doing a great job as a caretaker.

I just want us to focus on our process, not appoint him merely on what he shows in half a season of games under vastly different circumstances to what the circumstances will be long term and in a season proper with a "clean slate".

I also don't want Jade to be given the job because (talking hypothetically) he is a board favorite and is fast tracked or a charade is put up around him.

WHOEVER gets our job i want it to be due to a 100% process with integrity that says THAT is the best person, regardless of factors outside of selection criteria for our job.

If Jade is the man, he will have to be kept on for the same reasons I am advocating Cousins now.
 
Oldie, why don't you just admit that you hate Cuz or in fact a 'drug addict' at our club especially at an age of 31?

You were virtually the only poster on here who was totally against having him recruited and I remember this clearly since the the 2008 draft.

If you want to open up a thread like this, why didn't you do this when Nathan Brown was still worth some value for another club?

I don't want to be rude to non-Melburnians or non-Victorians, but if you want to CLEARLY see what Cuz does with the players during training and during game day (on-field and off-field) get down to Melbourne and have a look.

FFS, even our current coach and players have PUBLICLY STATED what value he has brought to the club.

None of this was mentioned when N G Brown or any other recycled player joined us.

This is nothing but a hidden agenda of yours.
 
Tigers of Old said:
Why were we still crap when Wallace was in charge if this influence was so great?

Why has Deledio struggled by his own admission until 3 weeks ago before Cousins dropped him?

I take on board some of what you say bobby but I still think you are exaggerating the impact Cuz has had.

I guess we'll agree to disagree as you say and leave it at that.

Ultimately if he stays on I'll support him but if we got a satisfactory return for draft picks, at this stage of his career and based on where we are at, then I would be fine with that also.

I can see how you would believe I am overrating his impact.

I believe you have to see first hand to appreciate the affect Ben is having. It is hard looking from the outside to really gauge the impact. Speaking first hand to players and officials, looking everything you get to appreciate it. We have had nothing like it in the modern era. Will be very hard to see it again.

I think I agreed to disagree 14 pages ago :hihi but some stuff that comes out from people needs to be put straight. We all have the right to an opinion, but there is a massive difference from looking and seeing only black and white than getting around the club and actually seeing the full story.

If we traded Ben Cousins against his wishes (different if he chooses to go) than I would be really pissed off. Lucky for me, I know it won't happen, well told that anyway, never can say never, but I am confident speaking to teh right people, his influence is appreciated and he will not be let go in a hurry.
 
Dyer Disciple said:
I think you have a slight wrong impression. Jade continues to increasingly impress me in some aspects and I have said he is doing a great job as a caretaker.

Tigerbob said:
If we traded Ben Cousins against his wishes (different if he chooses to go) than I would be really p!ssed off. Lucky for me, I know it won't happen, well told that anyway, never can say never, but I am confident speaking to teh right people, his influence is appreciated and he will not be let go in a hurry.

Fair enough DD & Tbob, I respect your opinions on this.
 
The question should be:
Would you trade Cuz for a 2nd pick from a top 4 club [pick 33ish] in which due to the Concessions given to the Gc club[u/17,s] in real terms is approx pick 50? ;D
 
TigerForce said:
If you want to open up a thread like this, why didn't you do this when Nathan Brown was still worth some value for another club?

Does Brown still have 2nd pick value because if any club is prepared to give one up, I will trade him in a heartbeat too. ;)

He is only 5 months older than Cousins BTW and he majority of posters here want him to retire but that's another issue. I don't think he has currency now hence I won't start the thread.

Main reason I haven't called to trade Brown earlier TF is that I pretty well gave Terry Wallace the benefit of the doubt that we were building towards something in his 5th season. The infamous 5 year plan.

It's become pretty apparent over the past two years that we are miles from it and this years failure has pointed to another virtual rebuild, hence my strong feelings towards all those over 30.
Richo. Brown, Simmonds and Bowden have also drawn criticism from me at times this season. It's absolutely crazy that a battling side had so many veterans and Cuz's recruitment simply added to the pile. His recruitment was largely about Terry's last throw of the dice to get us into he eight, far less so about what he'd bring to us development wise. It's been a bonus as was the financial windfall but the major reason was to transcend out win/loss record into a finals birth in 2009.

I was never comfortable at the beginning of the year with so many plus 30 footballers and was against adding Cousins not only because of his previous chequered history(as you kindly pointed out) but also because of the age imbalance of our list.

That's why my feelings are that those that are extremely unlikely to be part of an RFC premiership should now be moved on now and we should be looking to strengthen the bottom of the list. Cousins falls into the bracket of trade rather than delisting. Let's ge something whilst we still can that might make us a better side over the next 10 years when we will hopefully be in a genuine position to challenge.
 
Tigers of Old said:
Richo. Brown, Simmonds and Bowden have also drawn criticism from me at times this season. It's absolutely crazy that a battling side had so many veterans and Cuz's recruitment simply added to the pile. His recruitment was largely about Terry's last throw of the dice to get us into he eight, far less so about what he'd bring to us development wise. It's been a bonus as was the financial windfall but the major reason was to transcend out win/loss record into a finals birth in 2009.
It's very obvious that our PLAYERS have PUBLICLY STATED huge compliments about what Cuz provides which helps their development and have NEVER PUBLICLY STATED those words when Brown, Simmo joined us and even about Richo or Bowden or any other player in our team especially captain Newman & Johnson. In fact their compliments on Johnno's captaincy and leadership were just typical cliches.

Why take this away from our boys now??


Tigers of Old said:
I was never comfortable at the beginning of the year with so many plus 30 footballers and was against adding Cousins not only because of his previous chequered history(as you kindly pointed out) but also because of the age imbalance of our list.

That's why my feelings are that those that are extremely unlikely to be part of an RFC premiership should now be moved on now and we should be looking to strengthen the bottom of the list. Cousins falls into the bracket of trade rather than delisting. Let's ge something whilst we still can that might make us a better side over the next 10 years when we will hopefully be in a genuine position to challenge.

Thanks for admitting it then.

Cuz is with our boys whether on-field or off-field through injury (or possibly retirement and decides to remain with us) to make us a better side over the next 10 years as you say. Any 'whatever' round draft pick is all speculation.

Use what we have now and look at draft picks LATER when we have DEVELOPED a core of talented kids as WE HAVE NOW!!!

Stuff the finals. Cuz's not interested in finals otherwise when he was rejected by the Pies and Saints he would've not accepted our offer as everybody in the football world knows that we're nowhere near a finals team as much as the Pies and Saints are.

We have him as an extra coach so let's use him and think about EXTRA draft picks in another way.
 
WesternTiger said:
No and for the same reason as I stated earlier - he is the only senior player who shows any on field leadership and it will be more important in 2010 wth such a young team. And to think 8 months ago I was totally against getting this guy!
Spot on WesternTiger, well said.
 
Tigers of Old said:
That's why my feelings are that those that are extremely unlikely to be part of an RFC premiership should now be moved on now and we should be looking to strengthen the bottom of the list. Cousins falls into the bracket of trade rather than delisting. Let's ge something whilst we still can that might make us a better side over the next 10 years when we will hopefully be in a genuine position to challenge.

I'm back on the page with you there mate. Totaly agree about moving people on not part of our premiership. Of our twilighters I think the only people who can go around again and contribute strongly are Richo, Cousins and to a lesser extent Bowden. However in light of agreeing with you I think Bowden has to be retired (I don't believe he would play on elsewhere). Brown & Simmonds are well and truly past their expiry dates.

Bowden has offered everything he can to the club as an experienced player on and off the field. So time to come to a end for the reason you stated.

Cousins can offer a lot more and when we are in a genuine position to challenge I honestly believe we will be in a stronger place with a Cousins influenced/mentored leadership group than one second round pick player who may or may not be the best thing since slice bread. I'll take a great work ethic/culture and strong leadership group anyday over one extra good player. I have the utmost confidence that Cousins can greatly assist with the former.
 
Tigers of Old said:
If you can think of other ways to get more high draft picks to the club I am all for it.

How about putting an idea forward.

Change our name to Gold Coast ;D

Seriously, we should be looking at gauging the interest of clubs for most of our players
If the deal is good (picks wise) then pull the trigger
even if it is a small upgrade of a pick

We should aim to upgrade our 2nd rounder to a 1st, 3rd to a 2nd, 4th to a third
and somehow get and extra 2nd rounder

A lot of this prolly aint gonna happen but we need to aim high

picks picks picks dot com dot au (repeat x10) ;D