Trading Cousins? - Poll.

[Liverpool]

Indeed. I rest my case in regard to people's claims about what his lasting legacy to the club will be. Any claims such as changing our culture etc are only hypothetical, as the Weagles situation you refer since Ben left shows. There is no FACT to them at all at this stage. It's something only time will tell.

Rest what case?

Many of those young kids at the Eagles were not even there when Cousins was...remember...Cousins was out for a year.

And as for the FACTS....well, the facts I have seen (such as what Lids has said) and what Cotchin has said also seems to me that they are being influenced and recognising, from Cousins, what they need to do to become elite players themselves.

There is no "time will tell"...they are taking note NOW.

 

[btoz_01]

Unbelievable 22 pages and still going about trading Cuz.
We got rid of Wally and are in the process of going forward as we look to appoint a new coach.
What do we do? Instead of being happy that we are winning games and playing team footy for once.
We come on here and talk about trading a player (Cuz) who showing us what we need to do to become winners and we want to trade him?
olice: Unbelieveable.

 

[Streak]

I would think that is the case with just about any thread on PRE.

I'd reckon any post DD.

 

[Streak]

:cutelaugh

21 pages? Geezus all I did is ask a question, you'd think I just traded him today.

I'm impressed, next thing we know you'll be chief football scribe for the Hun.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Many of those young kids at the Eagles were not even there when Cousins was...remember...Cousins was out for a year.

As I said earlier, I cannot believe how many people keep using this WCE comparison as to questioning his influence.

West Coast lost Cousins and Judd and had aging midfielders, so much so from memory they had about 1 midfielder on their usually well used rookie list in 2007 when Cousins left (keep in mind they on average have more rookies than melbourne clubs).

The guys who were there with Cousins, Priddis, Rosa, Selwood, etc have developed into WCE's contributors now and players like Kerr, Stenglein, Fletcher, Embley, Braun, R Jones, etc have either retired/delisted, been injured/gotten old and inconsistent etc and the club has bought in a lot more midfielders both on their list and on their rookie list in recognition of this.

I don't know any side who could loose 2 gun midfielders and not feel the effects, imagine Geelong without Ablett and Bartel. Still a potent midfield on paper as WCE was, but when you take into account tagging, defensive tactics, injuries and form complications the reality is far different.

Butler was injury ravaged and barely played a game if one, Masten, Cockie, Swift, McGinnity and company all came along after Cousins.

WCE, who recruit well have managed their list poorly. That is why they are paying a price. Cousins and Judd is a MASSIVE loss to any club, Cousins was in his second year of a 3 year contract when sacked. Loosing those two put a lot of pressure on Kerr (who has demons of his own), other veterans and raw kids cutting their teeth.

West Coast got caught with their pants down developing their midfield and are paying for it. The main midfielders who played with Cousins are going great guns in my opinion (considering what they were recruited as).

 

[Liverpool]

As I said earlier, I cannot believe how many people keep using this WCE comparison as to questioning his influence.
West Coast lost Cousins and Judd and had aging midfielders, so much so from memory they had about 1 midfielder on their usually well used rookie list in 2007 when Cousins left (keep in mind they on average have more rookies than melbourne clubs).
The guys who were there with Cousins, Priddis, Rosa, Selwood, etc have developed into WCE's contributors now and players like Kerr, Stenglein, Fletcher, Embley, Braun, R Jones, etc have either retired/delisted, been injured/gotten old and inconsistent etc and the club has bought in a lot more midfielders both on their list and on their rookie list in recognition of this.
I don't know any side who could loose 2 gun midfielders and not feel the effects, imagine Geelong without Ablett and Bartel. Still a potent midfield on paper as WCE was, but when you take into account tagging, defensive tactics, injuries and form complications the reality is far different.
Butler was injury ravaged and barely played a game if one, Masten, Cockie, Swift, McGinnity and company all came along after Cousins.
WCE, who recruit well have managed their list poorly. That is why they are paying a price. Cousins and Judd is a MASSIVE loss to any club, Cousins was in his second year of a 3 year contract when sacked. Loosing those two put a lot of pressure on Kerr (who has demons of his own), other veterans and raw kids cutting their teeth.
West Coast got caught with their pants down developing their midfield and are paying for it. The main midfielders who played with Cousins are going great guns in my opinion (considering what they were recruited as).

Totally agree with you mate.

 

[Streak]

As I said earlier, I cannot believe how many people keep using this WCE comparison as to questioning his influence.

West Coast lost Cousins and Judd and had aging midfielders, so much so from memory they had about 1 midfielder on their usually well used rookie list in 2007 when Cousins left (keep in mind they on average have more rookies than melbourne clubs).

The guys who were there with Cousins, Priddis, Rosa, Selwood, etc have developed into WCE's contributors now and players like Kerr, Stenglein, Fletcher, Embley, Braun, R Jones, etc have either retired/delisted, been injured/gotten old and inconsistent etc and the club has bought in a lot more midfielders both on their list and on their rookie list in recognition of this.

I don't know any side who could loose 2 gun midfielders and not feel the effects, imagine Geelong without Ablett and Bartel. Still a potent midfield on paper as WCE was, but when you take into account tagging, defensive tactics, injuries and form complications the reality is far different.

Butler was injury ravaged and barely played a game if one, Masten, Cockie, Swift, McGinnity and company all came along after Cousins.

WCE, who recruit well have managed their list poorly. That is why they are paying a price. Cousins and Judd is a MASSIVE loss to any club, Cousins was in his second year of a 3 year contract when sacked. Loosing those two put a lot of pressure on Kerr (who has demons of his own), other veterans and raw kids cutting their teeth.

West Coast got caught with their pants down developing their midfield and are paying for it. The main midfielders who played with Cousins are going great guns in my opinion (considering what they were recruited as).

Good on you DD. I was starting to question whether I had missed something really obvious here. Either that or my sanity was ebbing.

 

[Rosy]

Many of those young kids at the Eagles were not even there when Cousins was...remember...Cousins was out for a year.

You raised the point that the Weagles are worse since Ben left. The comments I was referring to were about Ben being around now changing our culture etc for the next few years. I wouldn't have a clue what Ben's lasting legacy. I was only discussing claims that have been made about it.

 

[Tygrys]

I'd trade Cousins in a heartbeat if any club was stupid enough to offer a second round pick. But what club would even consider it for a player that will be 32 next year and has his history of injury? Like it or lump it he's a tiger until the end of his career, whenever that maybe...

 

[Liverpool]

You raised the point that the Weagles are worse since Ben left. The comments I was referring to were about Ben being around now changing our culture etc for the next few years. I wouldn't have a clue what Ben's lasting legacy. I was only discussing claims that have been made about it.

Thier position on the ladder is worse, yes.
But thats because the likes of Cousins and Judd left....and the fact that many of the kids there at the Eagles now were not there when Cousins was, so they have not been influenced by him (or Judd for that matter).

The fact that Lids and Cotch have both intimated publicly that they have learnt or been influenced so far by Cuz, especially on gameday says a lot to me...and I think that has been shown in their actions over the last couple of weeks, especially against the Bombers.

Also, as Cuz becomes more comfortable with the club and his team-mates...then he'll become more vocal and confident amongst them...which I think we were starting to see evidence of during the break in the game last week.

And surely these are already having a legacy on our current batch of players....which will indeed change the culture.

I think thats why we have 89% or so of respondents so keen on keeping Cuz and not trading him.

Short term pain in not getting some unknown kid as a 2nd round pick for the long term culture of the club changing.

 

[Freezer]

I'd trade Cousins in a heartbeat if any club was stupid enough to offer a second round pick. But what club would even consider it for a player that will be 32 next year and has his history of injury? Like it or lump it he's a tiger until the end of his career, whenever that maybe...

 

[Tygrys]

Sign him up for two more years and watch all the young talent shine.
Cuz can improve this team as much as Juddy at Carlton.
Champions are a rare breed at Tigerland.
While i'm here 3 more wins and Jade's got the job.

Cousins is almost at the end of his career and Judd is in his prime...a laughable comparison (and what club in their right minds would sign up anyone that will be 32 next year to a two year contract?). Almost as silly as saying Rawlings only needs three more wins (which will include matches against tanking opposition in Melbourne and West Coast) to secure the top job. Hell on that basis we should have given Wallet a two or three year extension at the end of 2008 after all the matches he won during the second half of last year. Again simply ridiculous.

 

[AstuteTiger]

If another club offered up a 2nd round draft pick for Ben Cousins at years end would you take it?

A big no, its not only that ben is a gun player, he has many attributes which will do wonders for our mids and the whole team for that matter. Blocking for your team mate or sheparding is something wallet didnt instill in our players, i can honestly say ive started to see players handball and then put on a block, judd and cousins thats something that ive seen them do many times...

Gut running, guys like lids, cotch, tambling etc wouldnt learn this attribute from our previous midfield/captain in johnson or any midfield group that we've have...The positive that Cuz instills in this group is his traits as a footballer, when he departs punt road perhaps in 2 or so yrs we hope lids, cotch, bling, collins etc have instilled all the traits that Cuz has left them IE: gut running, blocking, sheparding, 1% etc...so when the next badge of kids come to richmond they will have lids, bling, cotchin etc to set the example which was left to them by cousins...Its what i would call like breeding and it passes on and on by generation of players coming through....You just cant underestimate what effect he's recruitment will have long term on this group and beyond, as well as his known midfield traits he has an astute footy brain which he can educate our young group as im sure he has been doing all season and i think he will leave a legacy more so in the areas where we have lacked, like leadership, extreme work ethic, 1%ers, gut running, blocking, sheparding and most of all a winning mentality into our team as a whole...

That 3 qtr time talk to the players V Ess that is a leader, for a guy who's been at the club for 6+ months he stepped up to the plate and thats what leaders do...

 

[jb03]

Wow what a thread. Looks like the solution is to trade him for a second rounder, hope he goes off the rails and is delisted and then appoint him as an assistant coach. Everybody wins!

 

[rocketman]

Lets trade him AND Richo for more kids and languish on the bottom for many more years because the kids have no experienced players in the team to support them. This talk of offloading everyone over 30 assumes we will be guaranteed to pick up superstars as trades or in the draft.... ridiculous. I think the last few premiership teams had a few guy over 30 in their sides.

 

[Disco08]

On a similar note, Disco, you seem to keep referring to a doubt that Ben can offer much more. I don't quite get that. Ben has been at the club a very short time, I'm not sure how you believe he cannot impart a hell of a lot. I don't know many athletes or students who absorb everything the first time they see it or within a year. Human nature, things take time and Cousins has a wealth of things to impart that come out over time. Far more than just inspiring them to work harder on the field.

How do you know how long it takes to impart one's full wealth of Aussie Rules knowledge? It's a sport, not Micro-seismology. So while he may not be able to impart it all in one year, I reckon it's pretty clear that he can impart a fair bit of it. How can you be so certain that what's left to teach is so much more valuable than a second round pick? Can you quantify the value at all? Would you turn down Cousins for Rich just like Livers for example?

 

[Tigers of Old]

I don't want to sound too negative, but where's this difference Cousins is supposedly making? Aren't we just as crap as we've ever been for the last 10 years?

Ladder wise absolutely Disco. Anything else is totally unquantifiable as to it's immediate or longer term impact.

However the key difference that I see between then and now is that we now have a sprinkling on genuinely talented youngsters at the bottom end of our list.
That's what has me excited above everything else.
I want us to add to that core of that youth by utilising the draft.

However now that we have missed out on the priority picks, in order to do that we have to give up something of genuine value to other clubs.
Who's that going to be? Jay Schulz? :duhman

History shows that RFC players rarely attract draft picks. It's going to be harder than ever before GC17.

Enter BC a champion player closer to the end than the beginning but still with plenty to offer to a challenging side.

Encouragingly after the reaction to the suggestion of trading Cuz in this thread, I now have little doubt he would attract attention from a team such as Scumwood, if CC's brave enough to put Ben on the table. Unlikely given the same wave of public support seen here influenced his recruitment in the first place.

It's massively against the odds that Cousins will be there when this talented group of RFC kids are in their prime and are threatening for a hopeful premiership. Ben or no Ben we are quite likely in for a whole world of pain over the next season or two and supporters will have to be patient.
Going by this thread I wonder if they are?

Sure it is unlikely that we'll pick up a player as good as Cousins is/has been in the draft but there's a good chance we'll get a quality one with a 2nd round selection. However if we miss the opportunity to add another talented young player to our list, then we'll still be where we are in another season or so when Ben soon departs.
We need to ad to the quality of our cattle by pumping out calves and developing them now so they will be ready for when we're a genuine challenger.

I've enjoyed watching Cuz play well for us and have never doubted his abilities as a footballer but I can't help but feel he's ultimately yet another band aid solution to where our list is currently at.

Anyways as I have said the people have spoken, so it's pretty likely he'll be re-signed shortly.
In that case I'll continue to enjoy watching him play in the Y&B for a short while yet whatever happens.

 

[Tigerbob]

How do you know how long it takes to impart one's full wealth of Aussie Rules knowledge? It's a sport, not Micro-seismology. So while he may not be able to impart it all in one year, I reckon it's pretty clear that he can impart a fair bit of it. How can you be so certain that what's left to teach is so much more valuable than a second round pick? Can you quantify the value at all? Would you turn down Cousins for Rich just like Livers for example?

Because the longer it is taught the more it will become a habit. What he has to teach is way more valuable than another second round pick.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Because the longer it is taught the more it will become a habit. What he has to teach is way more valuable than another second round pick.

How long is a piece of string bobby? 1 year or 5 years?
Surely he's already taught them plenty this season.

 

[Tigerbob]

How long is a piece of string bobby? 1 year or 5 years?
Surely he's already taught them plenty this season.

No doubt, but your point of how long is a piece of string is apt for the argument against your point also.

No one knows, so why would you give up on something we know is great, for something that most probably, wont come close?

The saying earlier in this thread was perfect, "It's like giving $1000 to a homeless man, and getting a lotto ticket in return". Although Ben Cousins has done a lot more already than the worth of $1,000 in that saying.

We don't get a chance at Richmond to get many legends through that big black and yellow door at Punt Road, we finally have one, and we want to get rid of him? As I said, I understand where your coming from, just not the logic.