Rucking Hell

[davesexton]

What about Jonathon Giles....? He was GWS's ruckman in their first couple of seasons, and then went to Essendon. Not sure if he is serving a 12 month ban or has just disappeared, but he's not that old and would be pretty cheap to come by. Actually he's at WCE now, but he's got a few in front of him there with Nic Nat, Lycett and their plethora of talls there. He was born in '88 so is only 28 this season.

Also think just have a look at other team's lists and see if there is a youngish ruckman who is starved for opportunity. Thing with rucks, they need so much time to develop so picking one as an 18 y/o is a long term investment, only a Nic Nat, or perhaps years ago a Steven King really started to play off the bat at that age.

If the club is able to suss out a ruckman in their early 20's..say 23 who has had 4-5 years in the system somewhere he could be a candidate to be a breakout. Alas to get a big name big dollars might need to be spent.

 

[T-Shirt Tommy]

Jarrod Witts? Good lord no.

 

[tigersnake]

No and no.

This happens everytime someone names possible rucks, someone bags them. (I thought Zack Smith was done for example, and saying no to Clarke). Looks like we'll have to bite the bullett and try and poach a decent ruckman, except for Gawn, Goldstein,Jacobs and NikNat, they all have deficiencies.

 

[Scoop]

This happens everytime someone names possible rucks, someone bags them. (I thought Zack Smith was done for example, and saying no to Clarke). Looks like we'll have to bite the bullett and try and poach a decent ruckman, except for Gawn, Goldstein,Jacobs and NikNat, they all have deficiencies.

And this is the situation we are in. We aint gunna get Polly Farmer. And we are desperate. We need a stop gap till 2020 and then have one a young on the books. Look at Max Gawn, took him six years to even look like a footballer.

 

[seven]

What about Jonathon Giles....? He was GWS's ruckman in their first couple of seasons, and then went to Essendon. Not sure if he is serving a 12 month ban or has just disappeared, but he's not that old and would be pretty cheap to come by. Actually he's at WCE now, but he's got a few in front of him there with Nic Nat, Lycett and their plethora of talls there. He was born in '88 so is only 28 this season.

Also think just have a look at other team's lists and see if there is a youngish ruckman who is starved for opportunity. Thing with rucks, they need so much time to develop so picking one as an 18 y/o is a long term investment, only a Nic Nat, or perhaps years ago a Steven King really started to play off the bat at that age.

If the club is able to suss out a ruckman in their early 20's..say 23 who has had 4-5 years in the system somewhere he could be a candidate to be a breakout. Alas to get a big name big dollars might need to be spent.

He had he's one good year / break out year at GWS and then left.
I reckon he would have been handy, killed his own career by going to Essendon

 

[IanG]

He had he's one good year / break out year at GWS and then left.
I reckon he would have been handy, killed his own career by going to Essendon

Remember Esssendon chose no ruckmen in preference to Giles at 1 point.

 

[toby64]

I love the title of this thread.

 

[Dyer'ere]

I reckon Collingwood has done almost everything right with their ruck stocks. But has still critically failed to date because none of the individual players ahs amounted to much yet.

A young dinosaur in Witts. (Be careful not to write him off at this stage - the good ones look this unco at this age.)

A young neat skills cruiserweight in Brodie Grundy. He's better than Tyrone at every facet of the game except - aerial presence. Whoa.

But they're young. They can make it. (The cost of playing them is immeasurable. They can both have bad days the same day.)

And they have Darcy Moore and Corey Gault as young forward/rucks. (You don't suppose they'd ever play only Moore/Gault as a ruck team, do you? Vickery/Griffiths anyone? Suicide.)

They also have an experimental rookie rucks in Mason Cox, Lachlan Keefe and Darrean Wyatt.

They probably have too many spots allocated to rucks. And in choosing exclusively to develop their own they have hurt themselves in real terms - win/loss ratios. I am certain that if Collingwood had recruited say a Shane Mumford they would have won more games than they have with Witts and/or Grundy. But it didn't really effect their premiership prospects. They remained at nil.

So the Pies have taken big risks here. Still no rewards - Witts and Grundy are not there yet. Nor the others.

And you know what? There's still a chance that none of them will be much good. How bad would that be? It would be a *smile* disaster.

But if they've got their recruiting and development right they will not only have a longterm ruck duo they will have some to trade. They can turn Cox, Gault, Keefe, Wyatt into draft choices. Much better draft choices than they cost. (That's what Carlton did - brilliantly hanging on to Kreuzer.)

This is a kind of draft choice investment fund. Venture capital based.

Collingwood are doing it one way - the draft and develop way. It's risky but the rewards are high.

BTW there's another clever thing that Collingwood can do. They can hedge on their investments. This is insider trading but it's perfectly legal. Collingwood can take a position on any of those rucks right now. Having seen close up how they are developing. Knowing the injury and athleticism profile of each. They can put one or two on the market at year's end. And press on with the best.

Trade the player they know for a fact to be the lesser of Witts and Grundy. And get a hatful of draft currency. They'll get #5 os something for either of them. It's huge currency.

This is the ruck academy model. Collingwood has begun to work it. If they have the prescience they'll push it even further from here.

 

[Scoop]

Said as much six years ago Jack.

I have been calling on this strategy for years. It is as close as a sure thing in drafting as you can get.If you follow that model you cover off your rucks and give your self a chance to get a extra pick inside 50 every three years. Staggering we haven't done this. Needs to start this year. We need to take possibly 2 rucks (depending on who we keep and who we flick) in the ND and one in the rookie.

There is no excuse at all for not having young developing rucks coming through your list. It's mismanagement of the highest order.

 

[Baloo]

More than happy to invest one rookie pick a year on a young ruck prospect. Not sure why we don't.

 

[tigersnake]

Good post Dyer'ere. Agree. Another good point you make is that everything can be done well, and you can still fail. Most people forget that.

You can be lucky. Melbourne didn't know Gawn would make it, they thought 'this kids big, he has a go, we'll take a punt'. Just like all clubs do, with the odd exception, when they draft a teenage ruckman. Sometimes it delivers in spades, most times it doesn't.

 

[seven]

Remember Esssendon chose no ruckmen in preference to Giles at 1 point.

Well, I wonder if its attitude then?
Can kick goals, think he bagged 4 against StKilda

 

[Dyer'ere]

Said as much six years ago Jack.

There is no excuse at all for not having young developing rucks coming through your list. It's mismanagement of the highest order.

Oh, yeah, we remember! :hihi Even though I like this model, SCOOP, I think we should use the other one I like. (More later.) On balance.

More than happy to invest one rookie pick a year on a young ruck prospect. Not sure why we don't.

That's the thing, Baloo. They can cost a bit more now. NB Witts. Would in past drafts have gone as a rookie (as all champion ruckmen did) but was taken at #67 in the ND instead.

Mind you, brother, it is awfully *smile* plain that our spotters are ruck useless. So it wouldn't matter what path we chose. (I suppose any other would have been better.)

Good post Dyer'ere. Agree. Another good point you make is that everything can be done well, and you can still fail. Most people forget that.

You can be lucky. Melbourne didn't know Gawn would make it, they thought 'this kids big, he has a go, we'll take a punt'. Just like all clubs do, with the odd exception, when they draft a teenage ruckman. Sometimes it delivers in spades, most times it doesn't.

It's even higher risk than the usual drafting, snake. Some do appear the be better at it than others. But yeah, they are probably lucky. (No irony.)

 

[tigersnake]

Remember Collingwood didn't have a decent ruckman between Thompson and Monkhorst. What was that? 15 years? Then you get a situation like Brisbane with Keating, McDonald, and Charman.

 

[dimmauchump]

Remember Collingwood didn't have a decent ruckman between Thompson and Monkhorst. What was that? 15 years? Then you get a situation like Brisbane with Keating, McDonald, and Charman.

Unlike us though, Collingwood tried to address the situation. We have done nothing. Pinned all our hopes on an undersized injury riddled Plodder.

 

[jb03]

Remember Collingwood didn't have a decent ruckman between Thompson and Monkhorst. What was that? 15 years? Then you get a situation like Brisbane with Keating, McDonald, and Charman.

Cloke was pretty good for them

 

[toby64]

Remember Collingwood didn't have a decent ruckman between Thompson and Monkhorst. What was that? 15 years? Then you get a situation like Brisbane with Keating, McDonald, and Charman.

Wes Fellowes.

 

[Dyer'ere]

The other model could be ascribed to Sydney. Or to Hawthorn. (Or to Richmond at times. But people get a bit more het up about us. ;D) It's the ruck parasite model.

You draft the odd ruck cheaply. And do your best. Perhaps believing that the game is primarily one of luck. But demonstrably believing that the cost of ruck development is too high.

(I am a disciple of the ruck parasite school. No draft currency ever to be spent on young rucks but it's ok to trade for experienced or draft them low. And absolutely no focus on drafting them. You take a bright prospect only at the cheapest price.)

Look at Sydney's succession of recent rucks - Everitt to Jolly. To Seaby and Mumford to Pyke to Sinclair. That is how you do it.

Mike Pyke cost them an international rookie spot. Previously Shane Mumford had cost Sydney #28 and netted them #35 in a fire sale. Seaby bombed but he cost them Aamon Buchanan and a six place downgrade on pick #22 to #28. Right school. Wrong execution. They spent on Peter Everitt but cleaned up on Darren Jolly. Ruck parasites. Let the other clubs do all the work and then pick em off. (Yes, they do a lot of other of parasiting too but with rucks they just don't invest.)

Current stocks-

Callum Sinclair cost them a player. A Lewis Jetta is worth some kind of pick between 20 and 25. Not worth quibbling about. You will pay this for an experienced AFL class ruck if you need one. (cf Shaun Hampson.)

Elite forward/ruck Kurt Tippett cost them a PSD pick but even at a hypothetical first rounder he would have been a steal.

Toby Nankervis is a cruiserweight taken #35 in the 2013 ND. That is early. Very early. And a departure from true ruck parasitism. (How's it working out for them?) Reeks of desperation. (Mumford blah blah.) They betrayed the school they perfected.

Sam Naismith was rookie-drafted. And Tom 'Polly' Derrickx was a delisted free agent. 19yo Kyle Galloway is rookie-listed.

Leaving aside the very profitable Tippett debacle Sydney's ruck parasitism is pronounced and effective.

This is our model. But we can't execute. Our commitment to developing Vickery and Griffiths, and our perseverance with Ivan has crucified us. We should have Mumford. He was a standout. If not him Stefan Martin. There were others.

Ivan and Hamspon were poor choices in the scheme of things. But the plan is the right one IMO.

Next - the shape of things to come.

 

[FitenFitenWin]

There has been some different recent thinking about rucks and their place in the scheme of things. And I'm sure that this influences the way you recruit them.

Not that long ago the primarily (not pure) tap ruckman was derided as a dinosaur eg when NicNat was first drafted - many astute observers thought that this was a wasted high draft pick. If they couldn't make a significant contribution around the ground they weren't worth investing in. Better to get a large forward and develop some ruck skills into them. I believe this has influenced our drafting of rucks. Hence, Vickery, Griffiths, McBean and MacKenzie. Pity it hasn't worked.

At the same time we traded / recruited Maric and Hampson. To fill the need for specialised rucks ie more ruck than forward.

Not a bad approach to ruck procurement - it's just that we haven't chosen very well. No one would be complaining if any two of that list turned out to be decent rucks.

Anyway - that's all about history and process. Doesn't help us much now.

 

[jacosh]

Maybe get chol forward with jAck and reinvent ty v as a ruckman

TY came through jnrs as a ruckman, i remember watching him take on and beat Nic Nat in the final that year. Was happy we drafted him but thought we were going to use him as a ruck eventually.