Possible fine for Dusty

[mld]

I think the take home message is that brown people don't know what constitutes tradition, and it is up to us white folk to tell them.

 

[Rosy]

Thanks Sin. It seems that this could be considered an aggressive dance taking into account the comments you posted regarding one tribe fighting another and the fact Adam Goodes said it was a was dance that was meant to be threatening and he was angry. It's interesting to read what you were told. Some indigenous people have supported Adam's actions and some have condoned them. I'm interested to know the reasoning behind specific claims PREnders have made in regards to traditions and poorly understood cultures.

 

[Rosy]

I think the take home message is that brown people don't know what constitutes tradition, and it is up to us white folk to tell them.

Disagree. I'm sure most "brown people" would uknow but they haven't really explained it. Some of "us white folk" have made some generalised claims but haven't been able to back them up when asked.

 

[Sintiger]

Thanks Sin. It seems that this could be considered an aggressive dance taking into account the comments you posted regarding one tribe fighting another and the fact Adam Goodes said it was a was dance that was meant to be threatening and he was angry. It's interesting to read what you were told. Some indigenous people have supported Adam's actions and some have condoned them. I'm interested to know the reasoning behind specific claims PREnders have made in regards to traditions and poorly understood cultures.

i think Adam Goodes said at the time the dance was one made up for an underage indigenous group or team. Based on what I have been told the context of the spear throwing would have been whatever was it's purpose in that dance . I have no idea what that was.

 

[tigersnake]

Ok maybe I missed it. What did the so called "experts" say? What qualifies them as "experts"? How was it traditional? "Blow by blow" or a "breakdown" isn't necessary. I never for one second suggested I expected that. How was it traditional? How was it a poorly understood cultural symbol? Links will do.

You completely dodged my earlier question rosy. What is traditional? My brother and dad and I have a traditional final round north melbourne game barbie starting this friday.

At what point does something become a good or legit tradition V a bad or fraudulent tradition? And who is the arbiter of that?

Besides, you aren't adding anything to the discussion either, you keep saying exactly the same thing and asking the same question.

Its been answered to within an inch of its life on the Goodes thread. How many pages? Nobody can add anything. If you aren't satisfied or don't understand the responses, you never will, and for whatever reason, there is obviously nothing anyone can do or say to change that.

 

[Brodders17]

So if the fans didn't like it and went nuts about it how can it be a thing to be condoned by the AFL? It required security to become involved.

can i clarify, did security become involved cos Goodes performed a traditional dance, or because people yelled racist abuse at him?
my memory, which may be incorrect, tells me security intervened and ejected a west coast fan who yelled racial abuse.

 

[IanG]

Rosy I am not intending to get into the discussion and have no desire to be involved in this exchange but I did post the below. I don't know if the indigenous person I asked is an expert but she does do " call to country" ceremonies around Melbourne.

Many traditional aboriginal dances have spear throwing in them. Usually they are about catching food by hunting, spearing a goanna or a kangaroo. Aboriginal dances are adapted and change but they usually have traditional actions in them of which a spear throwing action is one. It can be part of an aggressive dance if that is the context of the situation like one tribe fighting another but normally these dances are not about that.

If an aboriginal person or group makes up a new dance that doesn't necessarily make it non-traditional because it will most probably include traditional moves and actions.

This is not my opinion btw, I asked an indigenous Australian about it and this is the answer she gave me.

And I posted a link to another in the actual Goodes thread it can be found in there.

Ditto. I don't know why people are so up in arms about requests for clarification. Better to answer the very simple questions, based on claims made on PRE, than make it personal or throw in red herrings.

No offence but I don't see how my response was personal.

 

[Tails]

This isn't about my perspective of Goodes (or Jetta or Dusty) though Knighters. It's about specific actions and the way the AFL has dealt with them.

You said Dusty's was a well known negative symbol. Fair enough. It was done with a smile just the same rather than to threaten the crowd.

You said the war dance was a poorly understood cultural symbol. That's what I don't get. Same with the claims it was a traditional thing.

Remembering this is in the context of an AFL game where imo everyone should be subject to the same rules I'd love to know what the tradition and the poorly understood cultural symbol are.

It seems a cop out to me to say agree to disagree. I don't know what I'm supposed to be disagreeing with. I'm not saying it wasn't a poorly misunderstood cultural symbol. I'm asking how it was that. It seems the lack of willingness to elaborate indicates they were just terms that sound good but can't be applied to this situation.

rosy let me clear it up so you understand, aboriginal tribes often came together, much like a commonwealth games but on a quarterly basis not every four years. During these gatherings not only sporting type events where competition was involved occurred but information sharing, medicine, spiritual and marriage ceremonies took place. One of these competitions involved war dances or shows of strength but violence was strictly forbidden at this time. These occurrences were particularly important when Europeans arrived as there was much debate about what course to take in respect to them. Also aboriginal law or payback was also sorted out at this time and all disputes were organised in an orderly fashion. Does this help??

 

[Tails]

How about answering the question than telling someone to watch a god-knows how long documentary or read a dozen books? You are certainly coming across with an air of superiority.

just inform yourself, you will be enriched and won't be sorry, trust me
I was born in Melbourne and my parents moved to Hervey Bay, I couldn't escape it, it's not superiority I just became enlightened.

 

[Rosy]

.....
I'm happy to be redirected to a previous post that completely answers her questions if I am mistaken.

Same Chimpa. But I doubt it's going to happen.

 

[Rosy]

You completely dodged my earlier question rosy. What is traditional? My brother and dad and I have a traditional final round north melbourne game barbie starting this friday.

......

To me traditional is something passed down or habitual. In regards to the "dance" in question I don't see either applying. Picking bits and pieces and cobbling them together isn't tradition to me. A bit of a waltz crossed with the evening three step and a bit of jazz thrown in wouldn't be considered traditional to me. I've not aware of what Goodes and Jetta did having any precedent. It was done as a negative not as a celebration. My understanding is it was something some kids used as a celebration after a win. If it was done in anger mid-game I'm not aware of it. Not sure how starting something this week is traditional. Missing your point there sorry.

........
At what point does something become a good or legit tradition V a bad or fraudulent tradition? And who is the arbiter of that?

.....

I don't know. That's why I am asking for clarification from those who claim the recent actions were traditional. I haven't mentioned good or legit or bad or fraudulent traditions so yet again the point of your question is lost on me.

........
Its been answered to within an inch of its life on the Goodes thread. How many pages? Nobody can add anything.
........

My questions haven't been answered. I'm happy for you to show me where they have. They are specific questions in relation to specific claims. Pages are irrelevant. People can add something. Simple answers would be a good start.

..... If you aren't satisfied or don't understand the responses, you never will, and for whatever reason, there is obviously nothing anyone can do or say to change that.

I don't have the answers to understand. It's a bit rich of you to judge me like that. I am genuinely interested to know the answers and see it from others' points of view. I'm not sure why you've taken it to heart considering you didn't make the claims. Feel free to answer for those who did though cos I am not aware of their answers.

P.S. I'd have a lot less posts on the topic if people stopped quoting and addressing me. Makes me wonder why you bothered really. :hihi

 

[Brodders17]

To me traditional is something passed down or habitual. In regards to the "dance" in question I don't see either applying. Picking bits and pieces and cobbling them together isn't tradition to me. A bit of a waltz crossed with the evening three step and a bit of jazz thrown in wouldn't be considered traditional to me.

could i suggest it is more like how a waltz is not a scripted dance, it is a dance made from certain moves put together.
the dance Goodes did was a dance made from traditional symbolic gestures. the dance itself has not been done for a long time, but all the moves in it are moves that have been performed as parts of dances for a long long time.

 

[Rosy]

rosy let me clear it up so you understand, aboriginal tribes often came together, much like a commonwealth games but on a quarterly basis not every four years. During these gatherings not only sporting type events where competition was involved occurred but information sharing, medicine, spiritual and marriage ceremonies took place. One of these competitions involved war dances or shows of strength but violence was strictly forbidden at this time. These occurrences were particularly important when Europeans arrived as there was much debate about what course to take in respect to them. Also aboriginal law or payback was also sorted out at this time and all disputes were organised in an orderly fashion. Does this help??

I'm aware of that Tails. I don't see the relevance of it happening mid-game on an AFL field though. Do you think Goodes effort was a "show of strength"? Many have claimed it was a celebration which is a different thing.

......
One of these competitions involved war dances or shows of strength but violence was strictly forbidden at this time. These occurrences were particularly important when Europeans arrived as there was much debate about what course to take in respect to them
.....

That's interesting. Is it relevant to what Goodes did? A show of strength towards Europeans, or in this case non indigenous opposition fans? Why do you think he didn't do it to the opposition team rather than the supporters?

 

[Rosy]

could i suggest it is more like how a waltz is not a scripted dance, it is a dance made from certain moves put together.
the dance Goodes did was a dance made from traditional symbolic gestures. the dance itself has not been done for a long time, but all the moves in it are moves that have been performed as parts of dances for a long long time.

Can you provide a link for an explanation of how the dance was made and what the traditional symbolic gestures of all the moves were or is that just personal opinion? Maybe that would make Goodes' intentions clearer for all. Reading Dallas Scott's blog it's clear not all Indigenous people agreed with the dance being traditional.

 

[tigersnake]

To me traditional is something passed down or habitual. In regards to the "dance" in question I don't see either applying. Picking bits and pieces and cobbling them together isn't tradition to me.

That's fine for you. You said 'to me', and 'I'. That's what you reckon is valid for your traditions, no worries. This isn't your tradition. Also, picking bits and pieces are what a heap of traditions actually are. They come from somewhere, they don't just materialize out of thin air.

Makes me wonder why you bothered really. :hihi

Fair enough, me too.

Am I the only one who thinks its weird having a philosophical discussion on the concept of tradition on the thread about Dusty giving the up yours to some feral Collingwood supporters?

 

[Rosy]

That's fine for you. You said 'to me', and 'I'. That's what you reckon is valid for your traditions, no worries. This isn't your tradition. Also, picking bits and pieces are what a heap of traditions actually are. They come from somewhere, they don't just materialize out of thin air.

Fair enough, me too.

I'm not taking it as my tradition in any way. Of course it's not, silly comment. I take it you can't explain the tradition of what Goodes did and it's relevance on a football field. Fair enough but saying it is so doesn't make it so. I'm not claiming it's not traditional but I don't think it is. I'd just like those making the claims to tell me how it is....if they can.

 

[Brodders17]

Can you provide a link for an explanation of how the dance was made and what the traditional symbolic gestures of all the moves were or is that just personal opinion?

personal opinion based on what i saw of Goodes's dance and what i know about traditional Aboriginal dance.

 

[Chimptastic]

Ultimately, if Goodes and Jetta made a few minor adjustments to their war dance, it would have been so much more inclusive and uniting.

These changes are:

- Direct it at the opposition team
- Direct it at all members of the opposition team, regardless of race (don't exclude Indigenous players)
- Raise awareness of the historical significance of the dance before doing it (too late now) and explain that it's a patchwork of traditional behaviours merged into an all-new dance

Everyone would have understood and embraced the dance in that case and it could have become a classic in the future of Australian Sport (a new tradition).

But sadly, it will be remembered as divisive. Divisive among Indigenous and non-Indigenous people alike. It has not helped to unite Australia, yet some people are vehemently defending it with an air of self-righteousness. It's highly entertaining.

 

[Chimptastic]

That's fine for you. You said 'to me', and 'I'. That's what you reckon is valid for your traditions, no worries. This isn't your tradition. Also, picking bits and pieces are what a heap of traditions actually are. They come from somewhere, they don't just materialize out of thin air.

Yeah, bits and pieces are plucked from here and there. But you're missing something.

The definition of a "tradition" is for the action to be repeated over a significant period of time. That's what makes it a tradition.

Picture your family lunch on Christmas day. Say you usually have a home-cooked lunch. You decide to go to the park this year. Can you call it your "traditional Christmas lunch at the park"? Of course not, unless you're making a joke, in which case everybody would crack a smile at the lame dad joke.

Alterations of traditional behaviour take time before they become tradition in themselves.

In fact, Adam's spear dance was the 1st in the history of his culture to be directed at the opposition crowd.

How can the 1st of anything be considered a "tradition"?

Am I the only one who thinks its weird having a philosophical discussion on the concept of tradition on the thread about Dusty giving the up yours to some feral Collingwood supporters?

:hihi

 

[tigersnake]

Yeah, bits and pieces are plucked from here and there. But you're missing something.

The definition of a "tradition" is for the action to be repeated over a significant period of time. That's what makes it a tradition.

Picture your family lunch on Christmas day. Say you usually have a home-cooked lunch. You decide to go to the park this year. Can you call it your "traditional Christmas lunch at the park"? Of course not, unless you're making a joke, in which case everybody would crack a smile at the lame dad joke.

Alterations of traditional behaviour take time before they become tradition in themselves.

In fact, Adam's spear dance was the 1st in the history of his culture to be directed at the opposition crowd.

How can the 1st of anything be considered a "tradition"?

:hihi

Point 1: Traditions don't have to be old.

Point 2: Traditions change over time. They don't appear out of thin air, and they aren't set in concrete.

(I'm actually a 'traditionalist'. But that's my thing, I don't foist it on others. I think the flag should never touch the ground and so shouldn't be used as a cape/ bib/ picnic blanket at sporting events and music festivals.

I think if you march in the ANZAC day parade representing your deceased ancestors you should wear a collared shirt, pants, and leather shoes. (apparently its becoming traditional to wear thongs, board shorts and singlets here in queensland)).

Its clear the Goodes dance is traditional, with its roots in the old or fresh and new. If he'd done the Macarena or the chicken dance while imaginary spearing, maybe you could make an argument.