Luke McGuane

[Brodders17]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Just point to me to that exact sentence please? Geez. :

The fact that we rely on Jackson and McGuane types sees us in the rebuild we are trying to phase these types out.

It's a pity that some think Mcguane and Jackson (and others) are good players but then lament our spot on the ladder.

How they don't see that one leads to the other is beyond me. Enough of this anyway.

sorry if i misunderstand, but im sure you are saying McGuane and Jackson lead to us being on the bottom of the ladder.
i dont see any mention of other reasons, and any room for other reasons.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

sorry if i misunderstand, but im sure you are saying McGuane and Jackson lead to us being on the bottom of the ladder.
i dont see any mention of other reasons, and any room for other reasons.

I think the (and others) part alludes to the fact we have other players that are simply not as good as their opposition counterparts. We have a poor list, which our results do now and have previously reflected. We apparently have also had poor coaching, poor development and poor recruiting. Hopefully those days are over, however when McGuane, Jackson, King, Rance, Hislop, Polak, Polo & White are not regular senior players (or hopefully not listed players) it will mean we have replaced them with better options and we will have a corresponding rise up the ladder.

They all have bravery, guts, determination, loyalty etc and all appear great guys, unfortunately they all lack the good consistent skills.

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

 

[Scoop]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

I think the (and others) part alludes to the fact we have other players that are simply not as good as their opposition counterparts. We have a poor list, which our results do now and have previously reflected. We apparently have also had poor coaching, poor development and poor recruiting. Hopefully those days are over, however when McGuane, Jackson, King, Rance, Hislop, Polak, Polo & White are not regular senior players (or hopefully not listed players) it will mean we have replaced them with better options and we will have a corresponding rise up the ladder.

They all have bravery, guts, determination, loyalty etc and all appear great guys, unfortunately they all lack the good consistent skills.

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

Thank you BCL, spot on.

 

[TOT70]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

I think the (and others) part alludes to the fact we have other players that are simply not as good as their opposition counterparts. We have a poor list, which our results do now and have previously reflected. We apparently have also had poor coaching, poor development and poor recruiting. Hopefully those days are over, however when McGuane, Jackson, King, Rance, Hislop, Polak, Polo & White are not regular senior players (or hopefully not listed players) it will mean we have replaced them with better options and we will have a corresponding rise up the ladder.

They all have bravery, guts, determination, loyalty etc and all appear great guys, unfortunately they all lack the good consistent skills.

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

Maybe it is not individuals that are letting us down at all? Maybe it is that for the last 4 years or so, we have had very few players represent the club who have been between the ages of 24-28 and playing in their prime years? We have tended to play a lot of kids for a couple of seasons before ditching them, and, until this season, our fortunes depended on the ability of Nathan Brown, Richo, Simmonds in particular to stay fit and healthy. The rest of the team has been perennially made up of babies and a few old farts.

Interesting that the Bulldogs wooden-spoon team of 2003 and their current team contain a large core group of Hahn, Gia, Murphy, Gilbee, Lake, Hargrave, Boyd and Cross who are common to both eras. Who would have thought Lake and Hargrave, in particular, would develop the way they have, given their first couple of seasons? I know I didn't.

Yes, they have added gun players like Cooney and Griffin, yes a couple of also-rans dropped out, yes, some senior champions retired but, by and large, they have waited patiently for this core group to mature.

Maybe we need to stop chopping and changing, putting 40-70 games into players before dumping them and actually stick with some players longer term? We might actually end up with a team of men for a change.

 

[Leysy Days]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

I think the (and others) part alludes to the fact we have other players that are simply not as good as their opposition counterparts. We have a poor list, which our results do now and have previously reflected. We apparently have also had poor coaching, poor development and poor recruiting. Hopefully those days are over, however when McGuane, Jackson, King, Rance, Hislop, Polak, Polo & White are not regular senior players (or hopefully not listed players) it will mean we have replaced them with better options and we will have a corresponding rise up the ladder.

They all have bravery, guts, determination, loyalty etc and all appear great guys, unfortunately they all lack the good consistent skills.

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

Well put Big Cat.

 

[Scoop]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Maybe we need to stop chopping and changing, putting 40-70 games into players before dumping them and actually stick with some players longer term? We might actually end up with a team of men for a change.

Agree with that but they have to the right skill set to begin with.

Martin, Girffiths, Astbury, Jerome Webberley, Troy Taylor, even Dea look like types that will improve rapidly after 40-70 games.

This years draft crop looks like one we could build off. Not all will make it but I think we could get the start of a solid core from this group. If we get two or three crops like that, things will improve.

Keep picking the right skill set to begin with and get the games in them.

 

[Col.E.Kurtz]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

Actually I would argue that many of those guys you just mentioned have in one way or another contributed to us being a bad team. For example can you imagine how much better a player Lids would be if he had Luke's uncompromising approach to football and hatred of being beaten?

I certainly wouldn't absolve the low skills players for blame either btw. Us being such a bad team has been a team effort where many can take credit.

I have absolutely no problem with a guy like McGuane holding down CHB during a rebuilding phase and until someone better puts their hands up to replace him. To (mis)quote one of my favourite PREers, "bad disposal is not contagious to your team mates, but being a squib is".

 

[Barnzy]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Agree with that but they have to the right skill set to begin with.

Martin, Girffiths, Astbury, Jerome Webberley, Troy Taylor, even Dea look like types that will improve rapidly after 40-70 games.

This years draft crop looks like one we could build off. Not all will make it but I think we could get the start of a solid core from this group. If we get two or three crops like that, things will improve.

Keep picking the right skill set to begin with and get the games in them.

Totally agree. Our very own coach has stated a number of times you can't improve a kick much once they get to the club. That's why these type of players who are naturally poor kicks (Jackson, McGuane's, etc) must be weeded out if we want to improve our skill level as it's been our achillies heel for years and still is.

 

[Brodders17]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

perhaps some think that having a ruckman who competes might move us up the ladder.
some of us think that having a midfield with multiple options, including some very good players might move us up the ladder.
maybe having 22 guys out there tackling, harrassing and putting pressure on the opposition might move us up the ladder.
maybe having a functional forward line with multiple options might move us up the forward.

 

[Leysy Days]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Maybe it is not individuals that are letting us down at all? Maybe it is that for the last 4 years or so, we have had very few players represent the club who have been between the ages of 24-28 and playing in their prime years? We have tended to play a lot of kids for a couple of seasons before ditching them, and, until this season, our fortunes depended on the ability of Nathan Brown, Richo, Simmonds in particular to stay fit and healthy. The rest of the team has been perennially made up of babies and a few old farts.

Interesting that the Bulldogs wooden-spoon team of 2003 and their current team contain a large core group of Hahn, Gia, Murphy, Gilbee, Lake, Hargrave, Boyd and Cross who are common to both eras. Who would have thought Lake and Hargrave, in particular, would develop the way they have, given their first couple of seasons? I know I didn't.

Yes, they have added gun players like Cooney and Griffin, yes a couple of also-rans dropped out, yes, some senior champions retired but, by and large, they have waited patiently for this core group to mature.

Maybe we need to stop chopping and changing, putting 40-70 games into players before dumping them and actually stick with some players longer term? We might actually end up with a team of men for a change.

By that reckoning it would have been preferable to keep Raines, Pattison, Shulze, Hughes etc to keep that core age they are close to like Lids, Tambling, Foley, Thursfield, Riewoldt, Polo etc this year instead of taking our chances in the draft...not for leysy.

Experience does help win games, but as Scoop said they have to have the requisite skillset & talent as a base to warrant keeping.

Age certainly isnt enough ILO.

 

[TOT70]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

By that reckoning it would have been preferable to keep Raines, Pattison, Shulze, Hughes etc to keep that core age they are close to like Lids, Tambling, Foley, Thursfield, Riewoldt, Polo etc this year instead of taking our chances in the draft...not for leysy.

Experience does help win games, but as Scoop said they have to have the requisite skillset & talent as a base to warrant keeping.

Age certainly isnt enough ILO.

Some players are worth persevering with, despite their weaknesses. O'Hailpin is a good example. So is Rodan. So is Jackson. Raines, I would have tried to hang onto, on balance, the others you mention are victims of natural attrition.

One of the things I have liked about our recruiting over the last couple of years is that some attempt has been made to keep up the numbers in the Deledio/Tambling/McGuane/Reiwoldt group and, as players have fallen by the wayside, others of similar age have been picked up, such as Morton, Thomson, Hislop, Webberley, Roberts and Nason. They haven't all been success stories but at least management seems conscious of the need to try to develop a largish core group over the next few seasons.

If we have to wait for Martin/Griffiths/etc to mature before we can go anywhere, we will be down the bottom for another 5-7 years. Surely, we are already sick enough of scraping our bums against the ground? The McGuanes of this world bring enough to the table to provide some stability while we wait.

 

[Barnzy]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Raines, I would have tried to hang onto

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

If McGuane is such a dud yet has been picked in every game for a year and a half by 3 coaches then what does that make those that aren't getting a game in front of him?

Again when someone comes along better who can force him out of the side well and good but until then this thread was purely designed as recognition of a player who makes the most of his abilities and gives his utmost for the Y&B.

I dare anyone here to criticise him for that.

 

[Rosy]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

If they don't lack the skills (because they surely have the effort) why are our results so bad? Is it Deledio, Foley, Reiwoldt, Cousins, Newman, Cotchin etc letting us down?

Surely you're not seriously alluding to, and scoop and leysey agreeing, Daniel Jackson being more responsible for our poor results this year than Nathan Foley who, sadly, has only played 4 games? Ben Cousins has hardly been a world beater and had a slow start after a disappointing pre-season effort. He's certainly cost a few goals with his disposal. Dan's overall efforts for the team have been every bit as good, a lot better imo, most weeks this season.

Luke spends nearly all of the game on the ground each week. He doesn't have many goals kicked on him as he negates key forwards. He's in the top few in the league for 1%ers. It's comparing apples to pumpkins to compare Luke to those other players when he has a very different role to play.

Ridiculous to hang our results on one or two players who give their all week in week out.

 

[lukeanddad]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Hopefully those days are over, however when McGuane, Jackson, King, Rance, Hislop, Polak, Polo & White are not regular senior players (or hopefully not listed players) it will mean we have replaced them with better options and we will have a corresponding rise up the ladder.

They all have bravery, guts, determination, loyalty etc and all appear great guys, unfortunately they all lack the good consistent skills.

Of the group you have listed, one boy is 20, so let's give him another 12 months before we can him (surely, he is preferable to Fiora, Tivendale?). As for the others, Jackson and McGuane are miles ahead of King, Polo & White. It is just wrong to lump them together. These guys take the best mid and best KPF every week and are JUST entering the golden years of their career. Give them a break; they have more going for them than just courage and determination.

 

[tigertim]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

If McGuane is such a dud yet has been picked in every game for a year and a half by 3 coaches then what does that make those that aren't getting a game in front of him?

Again when someone comes along better who can force him out of the side well and good but until then this thread was purely designed as recognition of a player who makes the most of his abilities and gives his utmost for the Y&B.

I dare anyone here to criticise him for that.

Certainly not ToO, I dont think anyone can critisize him giving his utmost to the y&b. Just like no-one can critisize Tucky, or Lids or Dusty or Nason etc for giving their utmost either.
But it's more than just giving your utmost.

 

[lukeanddad]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Certainly not ToO, I dont think anyone can critisize him giving his utmost to the y&b. Just like no-one can critisize Tucky, or Lids or Dusty or Nason etc for giving their utmost either.
But it's more than just giving your utmost.

.. and again, you missed the point that ToO was making.

I'm sure he can express this himself, but as ToO has said, this is NOT a thread about Luke's ability. I understand that others have established threads to tackle that issue with some vigour.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Surely you're not seriously alluding to, and scoop and leysey agreeing, Daniel Jackson being more responsible for our poor results this year than Nathan Foley who, sadly, has only played 4 games? Ben Cousins has hardly been a world beater and had a slow start after a disappointing pre-season effort. He's certainly cost a few goals with his disposal. Dan's overall efforts for the team have been every bit as good, a lot better imo, most weeks this season.

Luke spends nearly all of the game on the ground each week. He doesn't have many goals kicked on him as he negates key forwards. He's in the top few in the league for 1%ers. It's comparing apples to pumpkins to compare Luke to those other players when he has a very different role to play.

Ridiculous to hang our results on one or two players who give their all week in week out.

Ridiculous is stating I have hung it on one or two players. And I'm not just talking about this years results. If you hadn't noticed we were poor last year. And a few before that. I named 8 regular senior players who I think will not help us have sustained success now or in the next 5 years. I could add a few others as well. Thomson appears to be a typical Richmond trier with no outstanding ability other than effort. Thursfield appears to be treading water as a footballer - I've always been a big fan of his but maybe he is not suited to the modern game where not many survive as pure negators. (unless they are good at it like a Presti). Nahas - he needs to improve his accuracy, cannot be a 50% goalkicker as a small forward. Edwards - whilst I'm a fan the jury is still out where his best position is (small forward/midfield for me). Moore appeasrs to have recaptured some of his 2008 form so hopefully can become the 3rd tall, rebounder we need. Farmer - jury out but I'm not too optimistic about him. But, like the others he shows plenty of guts.

Again you harp on the effort, where has anyone decried the effort of these guys. Despite the romantic notions it's about more than just giving your best. We need to create a culture of excellence, and that's in all areas not just effort.

Finally, are you seriously comparing Jackson to Foley? When fit, Foley is an A grade midfielder. Jackson is not, not now not ever. But he tries hard and speaks well so we better keep him hey?

 

[evo]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

If McGuane is such a dud yet has been picked in every game for a year and a half by 3 coaches then what does that make those that aren't getting a game in front of him?

Young

 

[Brodders17]

Re: Luke McGuane = Guts

Thursfield appears to be treading water as a footballer - I've always been a big fan of his but maybe he is not suited to the modern game where not many survive as pure negators. (unless they are good at it like a Presti).

Ross Lyon seems to think otherwise.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/lyons-three-defensive-disciples/story-e6frf9jf-1225874207638