Free agency

[Total Tiger]

:rofl :rofl What else was he going to say given he was one of the chief architects. Spoken like a typical lawyer.

Bingo. He was always going to be supportive.

 

[Azza]

& again, exactly WHICH of the two am I twisting on?

Both. You haven't convincingly explained either.

Given I have family and friends who live there, spent 2001-2004 living there myself, i'd say I have a fairly strong handle on what Sydney is like mate

Never said you didn't.

 

[Total Tiger]

There's obviously been growing pressure for free agency Baloo, with the Judd deal capping it off. The AFL role is interesting in the light of it's approval of his VISY job in this context.

This is a major concern with all of this. The AFL have to stamp this out if they want free agency. No employment from sponsors or companies linked to directors of clubs, and no investment in those companies either (ie. the Casey property deals). If they don't do that, they might as well do away with the salary cap because this rort will underpin free agency.

 

[collector]

Both. You haven't convincingly explained either.

You are kidding right? Particularly on the membership issue.


For starters, memberships in the format they exist in the AFL, didn't not exist until 4 years ago. Secondly, you cannot possibly tell me that 25 years of the AFL pushing them hard into the hearts and minds of people doesn't have an impact on the numbers. The RL clubs will eventually raise their numbers, their levels will be restricted to the suburban grounds, but they will (and are each year) rise.

RL clubs as you know have long relied on the pokie grants to survive, so saw no need to push season tickets in any strong way. Now that the Leagues clubs are bleeding money, they are looking to other revenue sources, including one that the AFL has been wildly successful with - Memberships.

The AFL is 20 years ahead of them, it's as simple as that.


With the crowds - Well what do you want? The Sydney Swans crowd numbers in Sydney dwarf EVERY RL club in the city. Are you going to tell me that on the basis of crowd numbers, Aussie Rules is more popular in Sydney than Rugby League?

For you to sit there and claim crowd numbers PROVE a games popularity, you will not back away from that and will claim that Aussie Rules is more popular in Sydney than RL.

Using crowds as an indicator of popularity of a furphy, it is solely an indicator of the sport having a strong attendance culture.

Never said you didn't.

But you are alluding to me spending 16 of my 29 years living in Sydney, im split shifts to speak meaning you have a better handle on Sydney than me. That's crap.

 

[TigerMasochist]

... because Hill chose to take legal action, which no-one in the AFL has done. Why?

Are you forgetting Silvio Foschini, Azza?
He was allowed to walk from Sydney to the Saints purely because everyone knew that he would bring the system down if he challenged in court.

 

[collector]

Bingo. He was always going to be supportive.

& yet he was honest about his part in the process and goes on to detail some of the steps Richmond are putting in place to ensure we can take advantage.


What more do you want?

 

[TigerMasochist]

I don't give a sh!t how sympathetic you are to my argument. You are fortunate enough to support a professional club that has rebuilt itself over the past few years extremely well and is very well run with record membership, sponsorship and will be playing finals more years than not. Your club will be attracting players under free agency, mine will lose them. You may lose one or 2 players to massive dollars on offer at Adolf's new love children clubs but it won't have a huge effect on you. Yep, I might think it was good if I was a Hawthorn supporter as well.

Simple way to solve this issue is to ensure our club is as professionally run as the best run clubs in the comp. For years this has been one of our biggest killers.
As per Benny Gales comments added to this thread by Baloo, we at least appear to be on the front foot and setting up systems to take full advantage of the free agency system.
If we get our financial, recruiting, coaching, management and development systems running to best practice then there is nothing to stop us utilising whatever policies the AFL sets in place to climb towards the success everyone wants.
Chucking the dummy out of the crib and firing up a raging tanty will just see us in a hot shitty tangle the same as we've been for the last thirty years.

 

[Azza]

Are you forgetting Silvio Foschini, Azza?
He was allowed to walk from Sydney to the Saints purely because everyone knew that he would bring the system down if he challenged in court.

It was actually before my time, TM. But having looked it up, I don't think it alters the case too much given the circumstances. I don't think failure to remain loyal to South after what went down is evidence for the strength or otherwise of the club system.

 

[Total Tiger]

It was actually before my time, TM. But having looked it up, I don't think it alters the case too much given the circumstances. I don't think failure to remain loyal to South after what went down is evidence for the strength or otherwise of the club system.

The Silvio Foschini case has nothing to do with this. The system we have now is completely different.

 

[Azza]

You are kidding right? Particularly on the membership issue.

For starters, memberships in the format they exist in the AFL, didn't not exist until 4 years ago. Secondly, you cannot possibly tell me that 25 years of the AFL pushing them hard into the hearts and minds of people doesn't have an impact on the numbers. The RL clubs will eventually raise their numbers, their levels will be restricted to the suburban grounds, but they will (and are each year) rise.

RL clubs as you know have long relied on the pokie grants to survive, so saw no need to push season tickets in any strong way. Now that the Leagues clubs are bleeding money, they are looking to other revenue sources, including one that the AFL has been wildly successful with - Memberships.

The AFL is 20 years ahead of them, it's as simple as that.


With the crowds - Well what do you want? The Sydney Swans crowd numbers in Sydney dwarf EVERY RL club in the city. Are you going to tell me that on the basis of crowd numbers, Aussie Rules is more popular in Sydney than Rugby League?

For you to sit there and claim crowd numbers PROVE a games popularity, you will not back away from that and will claim that Aussie Rules is more popular in Sydney than RL.

Using crowds as an indicator of popularity of a furphy, it is solely an indicator of the sport having a strong attendance culture.

Did the AFL/VFL club culture drive development of the membership systems or vice versa?

You're the one who has to explain the attendance and membership differences because they're contrary to your argument (and my experience). So far, I find you far from convincing. 25 years of membership pushing! What nonsense. I used to visit a friend in Melbourne in the 70's and was amazed by the attitude to footy back then. The culture was so alien it was like going to the moon.

There've been financially strapped league clubs forever - if there were so many passionate members as you say why didn't they adopt the VFL memberships systems long ago?

Honestly, your arguments just seem twisted to me. You really can't get away from the fact that TAKEN TOGETHER the membership and crowd figures support the AFL having a stronger club culture.

[/quote]

But you are alluding to me spending 16 of my 29 years living in Sydney, im split shifts to speak meaning you have a better handle on Sydney than me. That's crap.

O for godsakes, it was a throw-away line. But if you really want to go down that path, yes I reckon growing up and spending all my primary school, secondary school, and university years in Sydney gives me a better handle on the place.

 

[TigerMasochist]

I can't for the life of me figure out why not just supporters but club officials claim ownership of players for forever and demand to be compensated if a player decides to leave after his contract has expired.

There's been thousands of players walked in and back out the door of every footy club in existence. Some are champions, some duds and a fair few in between. As far as I'm concerned I support the club and then the players while they wear our colours.

Clubs are happy enough to terminate players if they don't think they are good enough, play up to often, or the club thinks it can get a better replacement yet scream blue murder if a player want's the opportunity to play elsewhere for whatever reason.
As for compensation for the development done by clubs. Perhaps reasonable if a junior player has only been in residence for a couple of years, but don't try and tell me that players like Yablett or Hodge or J.Brown and N.Riewoldt haven't more than adequately rewarded their club in the time they've played for whatever development work the club has put into them.
The same goes for any more moderately talented player who might want a change after eight seasons. Whatever work was put into making him a player will have been returned by him playing to his best capabilities for whatever moderate financial reward he receives during that time. It's extremely unlikely that a player aged 25/26 after eight years in the system is suddenly going to become a star player at another club.

 

[Azza]

I can't for the life of me figure out why not just supporters but club officials claim ownership of players for forever and demand to be compensated if a player decides to leave after his contract has expired.

There's been thousands of players walked in and back out the door of every footy club in existence. Some are champions, some duds and a fair few in between. As far as I'm concerned I support the club and then the players while they wear our colours.

Clubs are happy enough to terminate players if they don't think they are good enough, play up to often, or the club thinks it can get a better replacement yet scream blue murder if a player want's the opportunity to play elsewhere for whatever reason.
As for compensation for the development done by clubs. Perhaps reasonable if a junior player has only been in residence for a couple of years, but don't try and tell me that players like Yablett or Hodge or J.Brown and N.Riewoldt haven't more than adequately rewarded their club in the time they've played for whatever development work the club has put into them.
The same goes for any more moderately talented player who might want a change after eight seasons. Whatever work was put into making him a player will have been returned by him playing to his best capabilities for whatever moderate financial reward he receives during that time. It's extremely unlikely that a player aged 25/26 after eight years in the system is suddenly going to become a star player at another club.

I'm torn either way. I reckon too much inter-club player mobility undermines the family feeling of a club which I reckon is a pretty special side of AFL. On the other hand it certainly seems weird to get compensation after a contract is over, and the way things have been managed up to now are very clunky. In theory at least I reckon the new system is a pretty good compromise. As a not very fashionable club, I just hope we don't end-up getting burnt.

 

[Ridley]

Simple way to solve this issue is to ensure our club is as professionally run as the best run clubs in the comp. For years this has been one of our biggest killers.
As per Benny Gales comments added to this thread by Baloo, we at least appear to be on the front foot and setting up systems to take full advantage of the free agency system.
If we get our financial, recruiting, coaching, management and development systems running to best practice then there is nothing to stop us utilising whatever policies the AFL sets in place to climb towards the success everyone wants.
Chucking the dummy out of the crib and firing up a raging tanty will just see us in a hot sh!tty tangle the same as we've been for the last thirty years.

You are correct of course TM. However, professional and RFC have been mutually exclusive terms for longer than I care to remember. Time will tell if Gale and co can get it right. They have a huge task and are starting a long way behind compared to most other clubs. FFS, our new facilities at Punt Road have been coming for years. Why the hell has it taken so long? The Blues and Roos released thier plans well after us and they are done abd dusted already. The things Gale mentioned in his statement are only catching us up to the rest of the competition, if that.

 

[Tambling Man]

I don't give a stuff about the players, they have it pretty good as it is. If they want to earn more money they can play NFL or Round ball, if they want to change clubs they can go in the draft. I reckon they have life pretty good and the AFLPA should be grateful that there is enough member support to allow such generous wages.

That being said, I don't think limited Free Agency is a particularly bad thing, especially if the Salary cap can be effectively policed. Simply put, it allows another means of rising up the ladder other than concessions, father son drafting or rorting priority draft picks.

IF I had any faith at all in the clubs administration I would think that free agency would be exactly what Richmond need to climb back up the ladder. GWS and GC17 are getting the lions share of draft picks for the next four years, so, poaching talent from those clubs with TPP pressure is probably the most efficient way for us to rise up the ladder again. Bring it on, how much worse can it get??

 

[MB78]

It has happened now AFL won't change their stance. And with any change there is something to be feared. But its it up to our club to to stand up and show that we can become a force again. If we can do this we will keep our players and be a chance to win a flag. If we can't we will be like we have for the past 28 years. So for mine nothing has changed.

 

[MB78]

Suggest you take a drive over the murray.

The answer to this question is RL

Well given RL has a larger fan base, I guess I'd have to answer RL here

RL has the larger fan base? So the fact that our game has more crowds, more sponsorship, more revenue per club and more importantly player participation levels by Australians counts for nothing?

 

[Total Tiger]

I can't for the life of me figure out why not just supporters but club officials claim ownership of players for forever and demand to be compensated if a player decides to leave after his contract has expired.

There's been thousands of players walked in and back out the door of every footy club in existence. Some are champions, some duds and a fair few in between. As far as I'm concerned I support the club and then the players while they wear our colours.

Clubs are happy enough to terminate players if they don't think they are good enough, play up to often, or the club thinks it can get a better replacement yet scream blue murder if a player want's the opportunity to play elsewhere for whatever reason.
As for compensation for the development done by clubs. Perhaps reasonable if a junior player has only been in residence for a couple of years, but don't try and tell me that players like Yablett or Hodge or J.Brown and N.Riewoldt haven't more than adequately rewarded their club in the time they've played for whatever development work the club has put into them.
The same goes for any more moderately talented player who might want a change after eight seasons. Whatever work was put into making him a player will have been returned by him playing to his best capabilities for whatever moderate financial reward he receives during that time. It's extremely unlikely that a player aged 25/26 after eight years in the system is suddenly going to become a star player at another club.

As someone not happy about free agency, even I have to admit that that is a fair point.

I guess I just hope that the AFL industry as a whole, from the admin and clubs through to the players and managers, don't screw up a perfectly well functioning competition for the sake of an extra buck on top of what is a very handsome salary. I don't want our competition to become like the NRL.

 

[Ridley]

RL has the larger fan base? So the fact that our game has more crowds, more sponsorship, more revenue per club and more importantly player participation levels by Australians counts for nothing?

Oh geez mate don't get him started :hihi :hihi

Apparently all of what you posted is irrelevant.

 

[Tiger74]

Oh geez mate don't get him started :hihi :hihi

Apparently all of what you posted is irrelevant.

my fav so far is this:

Has nothing to do with the sport being more popular than others, it's simply by and large, attendance at the event has been historically encouraged

so apparently I don't attend matches because I like the sport, but because I've been "encouraged" to
"
I'm no fan of Demetriou, but even I don't think he's running press gangs to boost AFL attendences  :hihi

 

[BBC]

Well I reckon we can't do worse under the free agency system than we have under the draft/trade system of the last 20 years ;D