Free agency

[Ridley]

All wide reaching statements, with absoloutely zero evidence to support such claims.

I asked you to provide EVIDENCE Aussie Rules is more popular than RL

Like you haven't made any wide reaching statements : Where is your EVIDENCE that RL is more popular? Total population? So what? Many, many of those people, particularly in the vast immigrant areas of GWS have zero interest in RL.

I give you crowd figures, membership numbers, and TV ratings. You choose to ignore it, that's your ignorant problem.

 

[Azza]

Look at the historical data, don't just go down the road of someone else in this thread of parroting media propganda.


No, it has everything to do with the fact that the AFL is light years ahead in their promotion/encouragement of people to become clubs members.

The NRL has been doing it for 3-4 years...


LMAO

Where do you people get this sh!t?


Terry Hill was forced to have the High Court of Australia intervene in order to secure a release from the club that drafted him and join the club of his choice.


Free Agency exists in RL thanks to that High Court ruling.

Geez you're an abusive little bugger aren't you?

You don't think the fact that a player was prepared to take legal action nearly 20 years ago to break out of the club system indicates that there's less respect for club culture? Compare that to the attitude of the AFLPA.

And before you get too excited, I grew-up in Sydney, so I actually do know what I'm talking about when it comes to attitudes to NRL clubs. Kids at school who openly supported a club were in the minority, tended to form their own clique in winter and were considered to be a bit eccentric.

BTW- what makes you think I don't support the intro of Free Agency into the AFL?

 

[collector]

Like you haven't made any wide reaching statements : Where is your EVIDENCE that RL is more popular? Total population? So what? Many, many of those people, particularly in the vast immigrant areas of GWS have zero interest in RL.

For starters, you made the claims. It's not up to me to prove you wrong, it's up to you to prove you aren't simply regurgitating the crap Mike Sheahan writes.

I give you crowd figures, membership numbers, and TV ratings. You choose to ignore it, that's your ignorant problem.

Crowd figures - Have agreed they are great, however they are great as I stated in comparison to much much more popular sports worldwide. It is simply an indication of an attendance culture, not the popularity of the game. Something Victorians never quite seem to understand.

Membership numbers - Have already mentioned this in response to Azza. The AFL have been pushing memberships for 25+ years. The NRL 3-4. It is simply unreasonable to expect the NRL clubs to be level. Many have similar numbers now to what Richmond had 20 years ago...

TV ratings - TV ratings are up to the individual to believe what sources you trust. Many can go to great lengths to prove Aussie Rules has more people watching, many can go to great lengths to prove Rugby League has more people watching. The gap either way, isn't as large as you'd like to think it is.

Look at the rspective GF ratings for instance. They are generally quite close to each other.

 

[Ridley]

For starters, you made the claims. It's not up to me to prove you wrong, it's up to you to prove you aren't simply regurgitating the crap Mike Sheahan writes.

What claims were those that I made?

 

[Baloo]

Gale's thoughts on Free Agency

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6301/newsid/89856/default.aspx

 

[collector]

Geez you're an abusive little bugger aren't you?

I'm fairly certain I didn't abuse you in any way ...

You don't think the fact that a player was prepared to take legal action nearly 20 years ago to break out of the club system indicates that there's less respect for club culture? Compare that to the attitude of the AFLPA.

You claimed that free agency exists due to a weak club culture. A claim that is factually incorrect. Free Agency exists thanks to Terry Hill.

And before you get too excited, I grew-up in Sydney, so I actually do know what I'm talking about when it comes to attitudes to NRL clubs. Kids at school who openly supported a club were in the minority, tended to form their own clique in winter and were considered to be a bit eccentric.

So did I, in the Sth & the West. Everyone supports a team... Most just don't publicise it. Hence the massive bandwagon effects that go on when teams make GF's. Happens to every club in the city.

BTW- what makes you think I don't support the intro of Free Agency into the AFL?

Never said you didn't. Just challenging your claim that Free Agency exists in the present day for any other reason than Terry Hill.

 

[Ridley]

No, what I said was Canterbury went from wooden spoon to second in a season. Factually correct. That they bombed out in the prelim final, is largely irrelevant.


What I want you to admit, is that Free Agency has NOT resulted in large scale dominance by the richer clubs over the entire competition. Or provide evidence to show that it has. This is your basic claim. Prove it.


Melbourne have played in 4 Grand Finals in a row, for two premierships. Sure. Firstly, they are not one of the richer clubs, secondly, they certainly have not done it by poaching the stars of other clubs. It's virtually the other way around, they raise stars, then watch them walk to other clubs .... & continue to make GF's year in, year out due to the wonderful coaching systems they have in place down here. The prove the exact opposite of what you'd like to claim.

Of course I can't prove it. It hasn't happened yet. It's my opinion. And RL and AFL are totally different games with different support base. AFL is tribal, RL is apathetic.

As to the success of free agency in RL; how are North Sydney doing these days? What about Newtown? How about Balmain and Western Suburbs? What about Illawarra? I bet South Sydney were happy to fold for a year and then come back just as crap as they were before the fold. What about the Gold Coast? How many goes have they had at it now?

 

[collector]

What claims were those that I made?

#a - Aussie Rules is more popular
#b - Free Agency has been bad for Rugby League


Baloo - I'm very impressed by what Brendan has to say and is exactly what I want to see. The club realising that it has a lot of work to do in order to make the club a place players want to be at.

 

[Ridley]

So did I, in the Sth & the West. Everyone supports a team... Most just don't publicise it. Hence the massive bandwagon effects that go on when teams make GF's. Happens to every club in the city.

So we know where the RL bias comes from.......................

Nice dodging of the question before.

 

[collector]

As to the success of free agency in RL; how are North Sydney doing these days? What about Newtown? How about Balmain and Western Suburbs? What about Illawarra? I bet South Sydney were happy to fold for a year and then come back just as crap as they were before the fold. What about the Gold Coast? How many goes have they had at it now?

North Sydney - Kicked out of the comp after rain waters delayed the construction of their new stadium, kicked out of the comp due to News Ltd's intervention in the game.

Balmain & Wests - Forced to merge due to News Ltd's intervention in the game.

South Sydney - Back in the comp after being kicked out due to News Ltd's intervention in the game.

Gold Coast - Yep, poorly managed basketcases, who played out of a terrible location (Tweed Heads) and once they moved to Cararra, were profitable when kicked out of the comp due to News Ltd's intervention in the game.


None of the above, of course has anything to do with Free Agency.

Newtown went broke due to a changing inner city demographic and smallish supporter base, gee, reminds me of Fitzroy & Sth Melbourne

 

[collector]

So we know where the RL bias comes from.......................

Have lived in Melbourne since I was twelve, am in my 13th year of Richmond membership, also hold a Western Bulldogs membership...

Nice dodging of the question before.

Am struggling to keep up, we are responding to each other as the other is posting.

What question did I dodge?

 

[Ridley]

Baloo - I'm very impressed by what Brendan has to say and is exactly what I want to see. The club realising that it has a lot of work to do in order to make the club a place players want to be at.

:rofl :rofl What else was he going to say given he was one of the chief architects. Spoken like a typical lawyer.

Let's see how much weight his silver tongued words carry. The only way the RFC can be a place where players want to be is if it is successful. I don't think even you can argue we are light years away from that.

 

[Ridley]

Have lived in Melbourne since I was twelve, am in my 13th year of Richmond membership, also hold a Western Bulldogs membership...

Am struggling to keep up, we are responding to each other as the other is posting.

What question did I dodge?

Me too :hihi

The question about if you lived in NSW or QLD. You did answer it but conveniently left out the part about spending the early years in NSW. You know the context of the question was to ascertain any bias.

Anyway, we'll never agree on these issues. So be it.

 

[Azza]

You claimed that free agency exists due to a weak club culture. A claim that is factually incorrect. Free Agency exists thanks to Terry Hill.

... because Hill chose to take legal action, which no-one in the AFL has done. Why?

So did I, in the Sth & the West.

Well then, our views have the same validity. Except mine are backed by the numbers, while you have to twist and turn to explain away the numbers.

 

[collector]

Well then, our views have the same validity. Except mine are backed by the numbers, while you have to twist and turn to explain away the numbers.

Which numbers would they be? The crowd numbers?

Average AFL crowds, are actually quite comparable to the EPL. Go on, tell me that Aussie Rules is as popular in it's homeland as the EPL is


Membership numbers - Well I don't think my argument is a case of twisting and turning? The AFL has pushed memberships quite hard for many many years, RL has only just cottoned on to this potential earnings base in very recent memory. Go back twenty years and compare Richmond's numbers to many of the Sydney RL clubs. They are comparable.


As for Hill - The AFLPA has been in place for a lot longer than the RLPA with alot more teeth. The AFLPA has always taken the view that taking down the draft system would not be a positive for the game and in turn it's members.

Terry took the game to the High Court as an individual, long before any decent RLPA was in place.

 

[Azza]

Twist away mate. ;D

And by the way, considering I actually grew-up in Sydney, while you left while you were still a sprog, I think I can claim to have a better handle on it's sporting vibe.

 

[Baloo]

... because Hill chose to take legal action, which no-one in the AFL has done. Why?

...because Demestos stepped in to make sure Judd got to where he wanted to go. At there time there was a whisper that the AFL was involved behind the scenes to make sure there was no legal action.

 

[collector]

Me too :hihi

The question about if you lived in NSW or QLD. You did answer it but conveniently left out the part about spending the early years in NSW. You know the context of the question was to ascertain any bias.

Ahh fair enough. Honestly it wasn't deliberate. I will make no secret I am a RL fan, but equally an Aussie Rules fan.

A Richmond premiership would mean much, much more to me than my RL teams when they won theirs.

Anyway, we'll never agree on these issues. So be it.

Can agree to that I just think you need to wait and see the impact. It's not entirely unrestricted free agency, the result will be less movements than people think.

As for Benny, well yeah of course he is going to be in support of it given the work he has done (Though in fairness he does talk about his own involvement) but you have to admit, he is certainly making the right noises.

From my own POV, I am confident enough in Damien, that by the time the system comes into effect, he will have the systems in place that will have us as a club players want to play at.

 

[collector]

Twist away mate. ;D

& again, exactly WHICH of the two am I twisting on?

And by the way, considering I actually grew-up in Sydney, while you left while you were still a sprog, I think I can claim to have a better handle on it's sporting vibe.

Given I have family and friends who live there, spent 2001-2004 living there myself, i'd say I have a fairly strong handle on what Sydney is like mate

 

[Azza]

...because Demestos stepped in to make sure Judd got to where he wanted to go. At there time there was a whisper that the AFL was involved behind the scenes to make sure there was no legal action.

There's obviously been growing pressure for free agency Baloo, with the Judd deal capping it off. The AFL role is interesting in the light of it's approval of his VISY job in this context.

The NRL club system has always been weaker than the AFL system. Whatever the immediate causes, the changes to the League club line-ups show they lacked the resilience (political or financial) of the AFL clubs. I don't think it's at all an accident that a player decided to challenge the clubs regarding free agency in NSW long before this came to head in AFL.