Don,t Fly the Flag

[Massive Tiger]

As usual I am grossly under-qualified to comment here. I don't completely agree that there ought not be an "us" and a "them". I don't see why we can't have an Aboriginal nation? With representatives in the Parliament and a symbol on our flag?

Wouldn't a separate nation mean a separate government? I am not sure this would be a step forwards and could be quite divisive.

It's pretty hypothetical anyway. However, the notion of representatives and leadership is an interesting issue facing black Australia.

 

[Baloo]

Wouldn't a separate nation mean a separate government? I am not sure this would be a step forwards and could be quite divisive.

Separate nations and one government seems to work in the UK, I think. I never really understood how that setup works tbh

 

[poppa x]

It can't be an "us versus them" argument, because it's impossible to define who "us and them" are.
For instance, consider the "us" side of the debate. I assume it's meant to be non aboriginal people. So "us" means, traditional bronzed Aussies, Greeks, Italians, Asians, Africans, etc. How can "us" speak with one voice? The answer of course is we can't. Perhaps Canberra can speak for "us", but that will always come down to two parties arguing the other is wrong.
Now look at the "them" side of the equation. I suggest the Aboriginal spokespeople are not the same people as the Aboriginal Elders or the same people as the Aboriginals living in the remote communities. The "them" people are likely those who for whatever reason don't have a voice in the debate. And even if they are a silent majority, they still don't represent people like Ernie Dingo, Cathy Freeman et al.

It's all very sad and I don't have an answer.

 

[Azza]

It's all very sad and I don't have an answer.

I think everyone agrees on that point.

For me the devil is in the detail. The problems of tribal aborigines who have English as a second language (if that) and who are pretty-well isolated from mainstream Australia are very different from those of urban aborigines whose aboriginality has become one of identification with entrenched, race-based poverty. The barriers from integrating are much tougher in the first group (see When warriors lie down to die - http://www.ards.com.au/ww_exec.htm), and I'd hope that the constitutional amendment allowing for laws promoting the advancement of aborigines is aimed that group.

From what little I know of pre-contact aboriginal cultures, I'd hate to see all vestiges get drowned in a tidal wave of bland global monocultural consumerism. At the same time, of course they can't be kept alive in isolation. It'd be great to see an integration, similar to NZ, where the original cultures evolve into something that traditional peoples can continue to identify with, but are viable in interaction with the rest of the world. Maybe the constitutional amendment is needed to shield that development?

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Nice posts Poppa & Azza.

 

[evo]

…well the indigenous Australians have fallen, infact they’re down for the count. Now what? Treat them like every other Australian, fine!
Exactly what privileges exclusive to aborigines are blocking their development, evo?

I didn't say anything about privledges. My suggestion is to stop considering Aborigines as a 'them'. In fact I've said it about 5 times.

It is not the priveledges, or lack thereof that i see as the problem, it is the fact that people treat them as an 'other'.

Wow this is too easy!

Of course it is easy to knock down straw men.

Is it also possible that you may be so far removed from the action that your theory is not necessarily appropriate at ground level? ;D
Ever see a tradie on the telephone to an engineer……

Seems to me the 'tradies' have had about 30 years to address the problem and the problem is still much the same. Maybe it's time to call in the engineers, or at least unwind the previous engineering?

 

[glantone]

I didn't say anything about privledges. My suggestion is to stop considering Aborigines as a 'them'. In fact I've said it about 5 times.

It is not the priveledges, or lack thereof that i see as the problem, it is the fact that people treat them as an 'other'.

Of course it is easy to knock down straw men.

Seems to me the 'tradies' have had about 30 years to address the problem and the problem is still much the same. Maybe it's time to call in the engineers, or at least unwind the previous engineering?

Most Australians don’t even interact with their neighbours nether lone aborigines so when you say that people treat aborigines as ‘other’ how does that actually manifest itself?

If a community, any community at all is suffering in someway isn’t it reasonable to look at what factors - historic, cultural, foreskin - may be contributing to the problem and then make a tailored response to address those issues with all contributing factors in mind?
Single mums for example are a section of society who are regular Australians but they face particular issues which perhaps the guys & girls from the strippers union do not. They (them) require a specific response quite different to that of the ASU yet all are just Australians. Isn’t that how Australian society treats all Australians anyway whether they be an individual, an ethnic group or some crazy arsed full mooners society? Kind of horses for courses and all that.

How would considering aborigines not as ‘them’ but just as regular Australians manifest itself any differently when addressing the problems they face from what is happening now?


The thing with tradies is they don't write the plans, they just follow them. The plans, as every engineer and architect will argue black and blue are always correct until that is they take the time to visit the job site. Then the penny drops ......

 

[evo]

Most Australians don’t even interact with their neighbours nether lone aborigines so when you say that people treat aborigines as ‘other’ how does that actually manifest itself?

If every time you filled in a government form there was a question are you an Australian OR are you an Aboriginal/ Torres Strait Islander would that make you feel you were part of said 'community' or would you perhaps sense you defined in another way? I think the later.

How would considering aborigines not as ‘them’ but just as regular Australians manifest itself any differently when addressing the problems they face from what is happening now?

I hoped I'd already answered that when I cited the discussions about Simone De beauvoir philosophy about a dozen posts back: in a somewhat similar waythat we now view women ( and more importantly how they view themselves) when compared to how we/they used to.

To reiterate:

Cheshire Calhoun proposed a deconstruction of the word "woman" from a subordinate association and to reconstruct it by proving women do not need to be rationalized by male dominance[/u].[11] This would contribute to the idea of the Other and minimize the hierarchal connotation this word implies.

 

[tigersnake]

You wan get into some real theory check Foucault's writing on colonisation.

 

[glantone]

If every time you filled in a government form there was a question are you an Australian OR are you an Aboriginal/ Torres Strait Islander would that make you feel you were part of said 'community' or would you perhaps sense you defined in another way? I think the later.


I hoped I'd already answered that when I cited the discussions about Simone De beauvoir philosophy about a dozen posts back: in a somewhat similar waythat we now view women ( and more importantly how they view themselves) when compared to how we/they used to.

To reiterate:

As an indigenous australian I imagine I'd feel polarized and discriminated against if I was asked ‘are you an Australian or are you an aborigine/Torres Strait Islander’, as a non indigenous Australian I’d feel ashamed. As a human rights lawyer I’d be questioning the legality of such a question. Is that what government forms really ask?
I thought it was more along the lines of ‘Are you of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander origin?’(full stop) – not quite the same thing.

But I take your point, it never occurred to me that the question ‘Are you of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander origin?’ could be so polarizing and/or offensive to indigenous Australians. I'd really like to hear from someone who is an indigenous aussie on this issue. I thought it was there to more efficiently meet the needs and services of indigenous people which may differ from those of non indigenous people. Wow, interesting line of thought.

When I think of women and considering that I am not a woman, I rightly or wrongly understand them to be very different from men. That in no way equates to a ‘subordinate association’ or negative attitude towards THEM - prejudice is something which must be imported into the equation by each individual – if anything, I recognize and celebrate our differences. I don’t see how recognizing indigenous Australians as being indigenous and perhaps their requiring indigenoscentric (sorry) attention necessarily equates to a ‘subordinate association.’ Best ask our indigenous cousins what they think I guess.

 

[evo]

When I think of women and considering that I am not a woman, I rightly or wrongly understand them to be very different from men. That in no way equates to a ‘subordinate association’ or negative attitude towards THEM - prejudice is something which must be imported into the equation by each individual – if anything, I recognize and celebrate our differences. I don’t see how recognizing indigenous Australians as being indigenous and perhaps their requiring indigenoscentric (sorry) attention necessarily equates to a ‘subordinate association.’ Best ask our indigenous cousins what they think I guess.

I suppose you'd would have to read 'Sex and Character' to really understand where I'm coming from with all this Other palava. I can't really do it justice in a few brief posts. First wave Feminsim by her and satre was really insightful I reckon, more recent stuff not so much.

 

[glantone]

........If we need a new date for Australia Day, I'm fine with letting Aboriginals choose it and to have input into what the day officially symbolises, as long as it will assist them to move on to more productive things than protesting past injustices that can never be fully rectified.

LeeTo Raines To Roach GOAL! agree with that - reckon having indigenous thinkers sit down with non indig thinkers to nut out what Australia day should officially symbolize and a more appropriate date seems like a great way to prepare for a successful national sausage sizzle.
Surely we can come up with a better reason than the forced internment of mainly the entire cast of Oliver against their will by (for many) a foreign government to a foreign land, with little concern for their welfare and even less for the indigenous population.

Bigcat, thanks for the Noel Pearson ref. I’ll check him out. The best change always comes from within, doesn’t it.


evo, well, when I read these books I’ll get back to you then….. hope they have plenty of pictures.

 

[poppa x]

Melbourne Cup Day would symbolise everything our nation stands for.
Sport, booze, betting and a day off work.

 

[Tigers of Old]

 

[TigerForce]

Melbourne Cup Day would symbolise everything our nation stands for.
Sport, booze, betting and a day off work.

The lazy country. The land of doubts and *smile* pain. ;D

 

[Rosy]

...
You're really fixated on the Canberra protest. Why? You're right it was counterproductive. But as I said, I have some understanding of the perspective of the people involved for reasons I've already stated. As for the tent embassy, like it or not, having a busted-arse camp in the middle of a nice shiny city serves the purpose of reminding people that all is not well. Things are different outback. It makes some people think 'what is going on here?' who would otherwise be oblivious to the situation.

I've been told from someone close to the action that the Elders in the camp read the riot act to those who participated in the protest and flag burning. They were told in no uncertain terms that's not the kind of thing they are trying to achieve and further indiscretions would see them banished.

 

[smasha]

I still believe intellectual racism is a bigger problem than racism.

But it's still funny getting out a map of the World and see how many countries hate the country beside them.

If we got rid of all the hatred between countries,there would be something else to replace it .
;D

 

[Azza]

I still believe intellectual racism is a bigger problem than racism.

But it's still funny getting out a map of the World and see how many countries hate the country beside them.

If we got rid of all the hatred between countries,there would be something else to replace it .
;D

What do you mean by intellectual racism Smasha?

 

[Massive Tiger]

I still believe intellectual racism is a bigger problem than racism.

But it's still funny getting out a map of the World and see how many countries hate the country beside them.

If we got rid of all the hatred between countries,there would be something else to replace it .
;D

Peace perhaps?

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/gallipoli-anniversary-could-divide-australia-federal-government-warned/story-fn7x8me2-1226309694960

This country is slowly being fragmented by multiculturalism. By the time it becomes a generic morass and there is nothing left to unite us, we'll be ripe for invasion.