Don,t Fly the Flag

[evo]

They didn't steal our country.

You might be part of the problem you seek to address mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other

 

[evo]

Good posting.

Just an aside, I thought that indigenous Australians had no domesticated crops to plant? To this day the only native Australian plant (or animal for that matter) to be domesticated is the macadamia, AFAIK.

Sounds vaguely like Dimaond's argument in Guns, germs and steel.. Seemed a bit lame to me.

 

[evo]

No one has the right to burn a flag, and it should be illegal to do so.

Meh.


the only reason flag burning is effective is because you feel that way.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Sounds vaguely like Dimaond's argument in Guns, germs and steel.. Seemed a bit lame to me.

Exactly like Diamond's thesis. I used guarded language for a reason. Do you know more about it?

 

[tigersnake]

You might be part of the problem you seek to address mate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other

I know all about the concept. Whats your point?

As I've said repeatedly, we'll be able to move on together once the majority of non-indigenous Australians a) understand the situation and b) give a *smile*.

At the moment a lot of people don't understand and don't give a *smile*, but I believe they would give a *smile* if they understood. And a lot of people give a *smile* but don't understand.

 

[evo]

Exactly like Diamond's thesis. I used guarded language for a reason. Do you know more about it?

Not really. But I was in New Zealand's 'kumara country' the other day. Apparently the Maoris carried the kumara by boat, probably rowing from Tahiti to New Zealand. Now that's commitment to crop development! ;D

 

[evo]

I know all about the concept. Whats your point?

As I've said repeatedly, we'll be able to move on together once the majority of non-indigenous Australians a) understand the situation and b) give a sh!t.

I don't agree. I think we will move on together when people stop thinking it is situation of 'us' and 'them'.

 

[tigersnake]

I don't agree. I think we will move on together when people stop thinking it is situation of 'us' and 'them'.

We will all move on together when us starts to understand them. To suggest we can wave all the issues aside and pretend we're all starting off even is simplistic and naive.

 

[tigersnake]

Meh.


the only reason flag burning is effective is because you feel that way.

agree on that one

 

[Massive Tiger]

About the crops, i am pretty sure there was a native yam that was planted and harvested seasonally. Down near Portland the locals constructed 'eel traps' which were designed to attract eels then empty of water leaving the eels stranded. There is evidence of this at Lake Condah. near there are also some permanent dwellings.

 

[Massive Tiger]

Back to the flag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBCkm9-LvRg

RIP Bill Hicks

 

[Tigers of Old]

We will all move on together when us starts to understand them.

Works both ways doesn't it?

 

[tigersnake]

Works both ways doesn't it?

Suppose. I reckon blackfellas understand us just fine. The poor bastards are surrounded. Nothing like being surrounded and outnumbered by people from another culture to make you start to understand it.

But the brevity of your post implies its 2 evenly matched sides trying to get along, thats not the case.

 

[Massive Tiger]

They were made to understand at the point of a gun, by being hunted down and murdered, by being used as sexual slaves, by being poisoned and diseased, by being force fed the bible, by being pushed onto the useless land the whites didn't want.

And so on. Happened all over the world as the Euros explored and claimed and invaded and exploited the far flung parts of the globe.


So, we do we see this as a wrong that has to be righted, a case of progress so it's too bad, or do we just not care and forget all about it because it is in the past?

 

[evo]

We will all move on together when us starts to understand them. To suggest we can wave all the issues aside and pretend we're all starting off even is simplistic and naive.

Who said anything about being even? Besides, how does one promote this goal of being even when all they keep doing is reminding everyone of the divide? As I said in my first response, it seems to me to do the complete opposite.

In my view, the philosophy surrounding 'Other' was one of the great steps forward in humankind's thinking in the 20th Century. It heralded the early feminist movement, for example. i'd love to see people really get to understand what it is really about.



substitute woman for aboriginal, and non-aboriginal for man.....

De Beauvoir calls the Other the minority, the least favored one and often a woman, when compared to a man, "for a man represents both the positive and the neutral, as indicated by the common use of man to designate human beings in general; whereas woman represents only the negative, defined by limiting criteria, without reciprocity" (McCann, 33). Betty Friedan supported this thought when she interviewed women and the majority of them identified themselves in their role in the private sphere, rather than addressing their own personal achievements. They automatically identified as the Other without knowing. Although the Other may be influenced by a socially constructed society, one can argue that society has the power to change this creation (Haslanger).

In an effort to dismantle the notion of the Other, Cheshire Calhoun proposed a deconstruction of the word "woman" from a subordinate association and to reconstruct it by proving women do not need to be rationalized by male dominance.[11] This would contribute to the idea of the Other and minimize the hierarchal connotation this word implies.

 

[tigersnake]

Who said anything about being even? Besides, how does one promote this goal of being even when all they keep doing is reminding everyone of the divide? As I said in my first response, it seems to me to do the complete opposite.

In my view, the philosophy surrounding 'Other' was one of the great steps forward in humankind's thinking in the 20th Century. It heralded the early feminist movement, for example. i'd love to see people really get to understand what it is really about.



substitute woman for aboriginal, and non-aboriginal for man.....

Thats all fine re the other, its good theory and it makes sense to me, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. But my point stands. As for the line about 'they remind us all the time'. geez. Lot of issues to unravel there. For starters, indigenous issues for the most part are ignored. Every now and then some event sparks a short burst of media, a shocking report, a flag being burnt by some kids, you know how it goes. So 'all the time' is a stretch.

second, its easy to say 'hey we're all on the same side now let all get along' when you're on the winning side, when you're the one who has been doing the shafting. Its a bit different for black people to say that to people from a society that did all it could to destroy them for 180 years. But the amazing thing for me is, black people generally do extend the hand of friendship despite all that, and despite the ongoing tendency for non-indigenous people to believe the worst about black people. It never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Tigers of Old]

But the brevity of your post implies its 2 evenly matched sides trying to get along, thats not the case.

You may read it as even Snake but that's not the case however it can't all be one way traffic either.

People tend to help those who help themselves, no matter what race they are.

I am very interested in how you would you solve the perceived problems that many Aborginals have with whites or Aussies or whatever we are?
What exactly would you like to see from 'Australians' (whatever that is these days) in order to fix the divide?

 

[tigersnake]

They were made to understand at the point of a gun, by being hunted down and murdered, by being used as sexual slaves, by being poisoned and diseased, by being force fed the bible, by being pushed onto the useless land the whites didn't want.

And so on. Happened all over the world as the Euros explored and claimed and invaded and exploited the far flung parts of the globe.


So, we do we see this as a wrong that has to be righted, a case of progress so it's too bad, or do we just not care and forget all about it because it is in the past?

Yeah. Whats really counterproductive is the tendency for people to get defensive about it. Its understandable, but doesn't help anyone. Saying things like, well I'm not giving my house back, or but they don't want to go back to the desert and things like that. Its pretty simple to me, like I said, being willing to understand black people's situation, and lending a hand in good faith.

 

[tigersnake]

We have made some steps forward though in footy at least, dunno if anyone saw a piece on the Aboriginal player at Hawthorn? It was great, really impressive work from Hawthorn. A real commitment to understanding the different culture and perspective, but also a clear understanding that they want to the young fella perform, Hawthorn are not doing it out of the goodness of their harts. like you say ToO, helping himself, but with understanding and genuine concern from non-Aboriginal people around him.

In wider society though, I don't see a lot of progress on the part of non-Aboriginal commitment to understanding, seems to have stagnated for years. But I remain optimistic.

 

[evo]

second, its easy to say 'hey we're all on the same side now let all get along' when you're on the winning side, when you're the one who has been doing the shafting.

It is time to move on from concepts of winners and losers. Seriously, is there anyone in modern Australia who doesn't now know that the Aborigines were wronged systematically? It's been a regular topic of political conversation and media for at least 3 decades. I fail to see how another 3 decades of emphasising the divide is going to help. Look at how, say the Italians and Greeks have been assimilated into our culture in those same 3 decades. These days when you meet someone of greek decent you just think another Australian, right? I certainly do. Why deny Aborigines that?

Without getting too technical, by continually reminding Aborigines that they are the 'losers' in the whole deal rather than treating them as just another Australian you ingrain in the culture a slave morality that is every bit as damaging to the collective psyche than many of the past wrongs.