Don,t Fly the Flag

[tigersnake]

It is time to move on from concepts of winners and losers. Seriously, is there anyone in modern Australia who doesn't now know that the Aborigines were wronged systematically? It's been a regular topic of political conversation and media for at least 3 decades. I fail to see how another 3 decades of emphasising the divide is going to help. Look at how, say the Italians and Greeks have been assimilated into our culture in those same 3 decades. These days when you meet someone of greek decent you just think another Australian, right? I certainly do. Why deny Aborigines that?

Without getting too technical, by continually reminding Aborigines that they are the 'losers' in the whole deal rather than treating them as just another Australian you ingrain in the culture a slave morality that is every bit as damaging to the collective psyche than many of the past wrongs.

The vast majority of people know black people were wronged in some way, but most of those don't really comprehend the extent of it or the effects. Big difference.

Italians and greeks, irrelevant analogy. I overestimated you eve.

People don't seem to be able to grasp the basic economic and cultural effects. I've tried to argue and provide some examples, but I've failed dismally. Ive tried to make people understand how black workers were basically had their wages ripped off until the late 1960s, nurses, stockmen, maids. I tried to give the example of the Boxer Elly Bennett and explain how that if he had been allowed to keep his earnings, he would have fed and educated 8 kids, who would have all fed and educated their kids. Multiply that one case across all black workers across Australia. Also consider the cultural effects, our pops and dads taught us that you work hard and build a better life, black peoples dads and pops would stand as an example that if you work hard and you get ripped off and treated like *smile*.

 

[Tigers of Old]

In wider society though, I don't see a lot of progress on the part of non-Aboriginal commitment to understanding, seems to have stagnated for years. But I remain optimistic.

Not sure that some Aboriginals should hold their breath unfortunately.
There's been the 'sorry' call and indigenous Australians are given many government instigated advantages ahead of other races but I asked you a serious question because tbh I'm not exactly sure if they know what they are looking for from us.

The face of Australia is changing & we're not all anglo's with white skin any more. In fact the "Australia' that once was is having trouble hanging onto it's own culture as the melting pot grows. We're soon going to be a lot more asian than european.

There are a lot of new migrants to this country who are fighting their own hardships who probably have very little understanding of why the Aboriginals are still facing the problems that they are and many of them probably don't care a great deal either.

What will Aboriginals be saying when we have a Prime minister of Asian descent? It will happen at some point.

I feel for what the Aboriginals went through many years ago and do my best to understand their current struggles but times they are a changing and Aboriginals also will need to change with it and try their best to move on. Just as we all do.

 

[tigersnake]

You may read it as even Snake but that's not the case however it can't all be one way traffic either.

People tend to help those who help themselves, no matter what race they are.

I am very interested in how you would you solve the perceived problems that many Aborginals have with whites or Aussies or whatever we are?
What exactly would you like to see from 'Australians' (whatever that is these days) in order to fix the divide?

I thought I answered that olden. When white people are willing to make genuine effort to understand black history and culture, society, I believe we'll all be able to feel good about working together to fix things. Its all about understanding.

 

[evo]

People don't seem to be able to grasp the basic economic and cultural effects. I've tried to argue and provide some examples, but I've failed dismally. Ive tried to make people understand how black workers were basically had their wages ripped off until the late 1960s, nurses, stockmen, maids. I tried to give the example of the Boxer Elly Bennett and explain how that if he had been allowed to keep his earnings, he would have fed and educated 8 kids, who would have all fed and educated their kids. Multiply that one case across all black workers across Australia. Also consider the cultural effects, our pops and dads taught us that you work hard and build a better life, black peoples dads and pops would stand as an example that if you work hard and you get ripped off and treated like sh!t.

I love how you appear to think that you are the only one cognisant of this stuff.

 

[tigersnake]

I don't think I'm the only one. Theres been some really good posts on PRE on black issues in the past, Hop and antman from memory, and massive tiger is on the right track. But it wears you down a bit when people don't seem to digest evidence and argument because they don't seem to want to.

 

[Tigers of Old]

When white people are willing to make genuine effort to understand black history and culture, society, I believe we'll all be able to feel good about working together to fix things. Its all about understanding.

How would you like to see to see the above achieved exactly?

Ideally as I see it, strong, intelligent leadership within the Aboriginal community making people aware of these issues would go some way towards that.

Instead of pointing the finger, educate.

 

[tigersnake]

I love how you appear to think that you are the only one cognisant of this stuff.

Putting aside what you think of my tone, what do you think of the content? same old same old?

 

[evo]

I can't really add to what I said: it's time to move on.

By all means provide better facilities in the bush such as healthcare and education, but apart from that start treating them exactly as you'd treat all other Australians - stop thinking of them as them. That's pretty much what they actually do at footy clubs these days - Tambling didn't run less laps than Edwards at training - he was just another Richmond player who rose or fell on his merits. Extend that philosophy to the rest of society.

 

[mld]

It is time to move on from concepts of winners and losers. Seriously, is there anyone in modern Australia who doesn't now know that the Aborigines were wronged systematically? It's been a regular topic of political conversation and media for at least 3 decades. I fail to see how another 3 decades of emphasising the divide is going to help. Look at how, say the Italians and Greeks have been assimilated into our culture in those same 3 decades. These days when you meet someone of greek decent you just think another Australian, right? I certainly do. Why deny Aborigines that?

Without getting too technical, by continually reminding Aborigines that they are the 'losers' in the whole deal rather than treating them as just another Australian you ingrain in the culture a slave morality that is every bit as damaging to the collective psyche than many of the past wrongs.

I reckon this is quite reasonable, actually.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

As I've said repeatedly, we'll be able to move on together once the majority of non-indigenous Australians a) understand the situation and b) give a sh!t.

At the moment a lot of people don't understand and don't give a sh!t, but I believe they would give a sh!t if they understood. And a lot of people give a sh!t but don't understand.

You're right, I've listened and listened but I just don't comprehend what it is that indigenous people are waiting to receive/hear. It seems as though they are incapable of living in the present, or refuse to do so. And that's not to say it isn't tragic.

 

[Joe Lynn Turnip]

You're right, I've listened and listened but I just don't comprehend what it is that indigenous people are waiting to receive/hear. It seems as though they are incapable of living in the present, or refuse to do so. And that's not to say it isn't tragic.

Ironically what lot of them seem to want is basically another form of apartheid. Their own sovereignty with seperate laws.

 

[Rosy]

You're right, I've listened and listened but I just don't comprehend what it is that indigenous people are waiting to receive/hear. It seems as though they are incapable of living in the present, or refuse to do so. And that's not to say it isn't tragic.

Agree.

I feel there's a lot of past tense focus in tigersnake's comments. Also generalisation of "they" as a separate united group all thinking the same way which is far from the case. I'm not sure how others understanding the past will change the future for those who don't make an effort from within.

It's well and good to use examples/excuses of aboriginal sports champions who were ripped off many years ago but there are plenty of examples of similar situations now where ALL Australians have equal opportunity and pay.

I don't see how everyone understanding a horrible past history is necessary to allow others to move forward. I'm sure the majority would be informed, and abhor, what has happened. Nobody can change the past though. A lot of effort needs to come from within.

There have been outstanding aboriginals leading the way. People like Neville Bonner, Cathy Freeman, Evonne Goolagong, Mandawuy Yunupingu, Archie Roach and many less famous happy and successful aboriginals, do far more for the cause than a rabble on the steps or Parliament House.

There was a lot of emotion when Rudd made his sorry speech. Has it changed anything or is there a belief that non-indigenous people will never understand because they had a more privileged upbringing which is the feeling I get from some comments on this thread?

 

[tigersnake]

I agree rosy, Aboriginal people are not a homogenous group, but this is a discussion on an internet footy forum, not an academic conference, you have to make generalisations to make a point, and I've made a lot of them. But I could back up all the points I've made in huge detail if required. And I agree Cathy Freeman and Evonne are amazing examples, as is any black AFL footy player, but to suggest they can do it so anyone can do it, its not wrong, theres just much more to the picture.

I've been saying all along, I would love to move on as much as anyone, more than most people I'd say, and I'm personally focussed on the future, but for me it boils down to this very simple premise:

We'll all be able to move forward together and in good faith when non-Aboriginal Australians truly understand the history and culture of Aboriginal Australians.


Thats it. Thats what I believe, and its based on 20 years of experience working with and for Aboriginal people off and on. And also a lot of time teaching black kids. And its also based on a lot of reading. That statement is not aimed at any individuals. Its a general statement. History matters, it matters to individual people and also cultures. People don't agree, we live in a free country.

It sound simple, but its easier said than done. A lot of people, probably most people, just don't have much or any experience with aboriginal people. Meeting and spending quality time does wonders. I've seen the biggest rednecks of all time do a 180 in a week. But thats hard to do, on a pure logistic level.

I reckon understanding is all thats required. I've been a stuck record, don't think I can say anymore really.

 

[Rosy]

And I agree Cathy Freeman and Evonne are amazing examples, as is any black AFL footy player, but to suggest they can do it so anyone can do it, its not wrong, theres just much more to the picture.

I wouldn't suggest anyone can achieve what those two examples have, whether aboriginal or not. Every Australian has the opportunity to try though. I used the examples because you're focussing on how hard some were done by in the past. Nobody denies that but for balance it's worth mentioning opportunities and treatment of people are very different now. You might think it's more relevant to dwell on the past but I think it's more important to work for the future.

We'll all be able to move forward together and in good faith when non-Aboriginal Australians truly understand the history and culture of Aboriginal Australians.

Did you respond to glantone's question about indigenous people protesting against domestic violence, child abuse, substance abuse etc perpetrated by indigenous australians? How can us truly understanding their history and culture help them treat each other with care and respect?

I've had a fair bit to do with Aboriginal people as family, as friends, and as people I've met working in outback Australia.

Nobody feel sadder about the past than I do. I happen to think it needs a combined effort from all sides to make a better future. We're a long way down that road but have a very long way to go.

 

[evo]

Thats it. Thats what I believe, and its based on 20 years of experience working with and for Aboriginal people off and on. And also a lot of time teaching black kids.

It is possible that, while you would probably be good at providing micro solutions to the problems faced by Aboriginals, you may be a bit too close to see macro solutions.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

We'll all be able to move forward together and in good faith when non-Aboriginal Australians truly understand the history and culture of Aboriginal Australians.

I know that's as simple as you can make it, but I'm still struggling. How will this help Aboriginals to deal with the practicalities of e.g. attending school regularly enough to obtain a decent education, and holding down a 9 to 5 job? These requirements won't change.

Isn't Aboriginal history now a compulsory part of every school curriculum? I respect your experience in this area, but suspect any effort we make will come to nought without Aboriginals also embracing the realities of the present.

Do Aboriginals today long for acceptance? What do they aspire to achieve? What basics do they consider necessary for happiness? (Or are there no simple answers?)

 

[Ian4]

The face of Australia is changing & we're not all anglo's with white skin any more. In fact the "Australia' that once was is having trouble hanging onto it's own culture as the melting pot grows. We're soon going to be a lot more asian than european.

by the turn of the next century the image of the bronzed aussie will be well and truly gone and i think your typical australian will look distinctly asian.

 

[glantone]

I can't really add to what I said: it's time to move on.

By all means provide better facilities in the bush such as healthcare and education, but apart from that start treating them exactly as you'd treat all other Australians - stop thinking of them as them. That's pretty much what they actually do at footy clubs these days - Tambling didn't run less laps than Edwards at training - he was just another Richmond player who rose or fell on his merits. Extend that philosophy to the rest of society.

…well the indigenous Australians have fallen, infact they’re down for the count. Now what? Treat them like every other Australian, fine!
Exactly what privileges exclusive to aborigines are blocking their development, evo?
Wow this is too easy!

 

[glantone]

It is possible that, while you would probably be good at providing micro solutions to the problems faced by Aboriginals, you may be a bit too close to see macro solutions.

Is it also possible that you may be so far removed from the action that your theory is not necessarily appropriate at ground level? ;D
Ever see a tradie on the telephone to an engineer……

 

[KnightersRevenge]

As usual I am grossly under-qualified to comment here. I don't completely agree that there ought not be an "us" and a "them". I don't see why we can't have an Aboriginal nation? With representatives in the Parliament and a symbol on our flag?