Cricket

[Mr Brightside]

I'm a little confused. Is Lyon good or not?

To quote Redford “ cmon on JB Dumbo “ imho he’s very good but not great , just like the Aussies have been over the last decade , I’d say it’s been just an average decade compared to other eras .

Reckon yesterday summed up Lyons career pretty well , bowled a stack of balls , holding up an end , getting Just the one batters wicket and then making the figures look better with a couple of bunnies at the end , , very good role player

 

[TigerMasochist]

Every time I hear "bowled Gary", Lyon's place in the pecking order of great spinners gets taken down a peg or two

Reckon you'd have poor " Gary " ranked below Tuffers by now then tigerman. Bit unjustified.

Might not be an absolute champion bowler when compared to some of the greats of time, but " Gary " has more than earn't his keep at the elite level for a bloody long time. Bloody big rock you build an elite attack around.

 

[TrialByVideo]

Whilst I see Lyon as a good bowler at test level, I think his record is hugely flattering and in terms of his place in history, very much undeserved.

To be third on the list of test wicket takers with 400 wickets is far above his station in my opinion and is more a reflection of the times than anything else.

I see him as being quite similar to Brett Lee, right place, right time and offering something the selectors couldn't find in any other player at that time. That is enough to play lots of cricket and build a record that looks impressive on paper but when you go through the nuances of it, doesn't quite stack up to the very best or even the best.

Yeah. .... it's sort of like he's had this faux aura created by teammates/media/fans with all the goat crap and the Garry/Gazza rubbish, which he's obviously embraced to the point where I reckon he even believes it.

 

[Mr Brightside]

I know the English have sent out some very poor teams , however this bunch has to be close to their worst dosent it ?

BTW are there no good batting coaches out there as commentators are forever saying the batsman’s technique is poor

 

[spook]

You don't take 400 Test wickets by accident. Lyon is arguably the best off-spinner Australia has ever had, and plays more than half his cricket in conditions that destroy off-spinners. Go have a look at Murali's, Ashwin's and Swann's records in Australia. It's ugly.

 

[TigerForce]

Happy Birthday Punter. 47?? Can't believe it's already 10 years ago since he retired.

 

[spook]

Mr Cricket explaining why and how Lyon is a gun. He bowled superbly yesterday from what I saw.

 

[MD Jazz]

Mr Cricket explaining why and how Lyon is a gun. He bowled superbly yesterday from what I saw.

Yeh you have to acknowledge his ability. Warney is a fan, and I heard him say how much more dangerous Lyon is when he bowls outside off stump. I've always thought he bowled too straight.

 

[Mr Brightside]

You don't take 400 Test wickets by accident. Lyon is arguably the best off-spinner Australia has ever had, and plays more than half his cricket in conditions that destroy off-spinners. Go have a look at Murali's, Ashwin's and Swann's records in Australia. It's ugly.

Theres little doubt his one of our finest off spinners , makes you think what is the actual value of that type of bowler when they average around 33 and 1 in every 3 wickets they take is a tail ended ( yes I understand thier role ) . I’m not a critic or fan , he’s the best weve got in that role , it’s just the GOAT thing is crazy to think he’s the best at his craft in the game when you compare him to Murli, av 22, McGrath 21 , Warne 25, etc etc .

Actually not sure why he’s such a polarising figure , us mugs seem to think he’s good , experts rate him higher

 

[spook]

I think there's also a big element of the way Australian batsman play off spin in the records down here. Apart from in India on real tunrers, almost all off-spinners tends to have worse records against Australia at home and away than other countries.

SK Warne reckons he would take Tim May ahead of Lyon so that's good enough for me. I've also heard older guys suggest Ashley Mallett and Bruce Yardley were better but I don't recall enough about them to say.

Lyon is better than Yardley was. I didn't see Mallet. Warnie's a loyal bloke. May was a very good bowler.

Australia is a very tough place to bowl finger spin. That's why you can count our very good ones on one hand.

Lol Buttler. One in, one out.

 

[taztiger4]

I think there's also a big element of the way Australian batsman play off spin in the records down here. Apart from in India on real tunrers, almost all off-spinners tends to have worse records against Australia at home and away than other countries.

SK Warne reckons he would take Tim May ahead of Lyon so that's good enough for me. I've also heard older guys suggest Ashley Mallett and Bruce Yardley were better but I don't recall enough about them to say.

Warney reckons Starc is a dud

 

[spook]

Theres little doubt his one of our finest off spinners , makes you think what is the actual value of that type of bowler when they average around 33 and 1 in every 3 wickets they take is a tail ended ( yes I understand thier role ) . I’m not a critic or fan , he’s the best weve got in that role , it’s just the GOAT thing is crazy to think he’s the best at his craft in the game when you compare him to Murli, av 22, McGrath 21 , Warne 25, etc etc .

Actually not sure why he’s such a polarising figure , us mugs seem to think he’s good , experts rate him higher

One in every three wickets is a tailender. Taking a wicket every 33 runs on hard flat pitches with a soft ball against set batsmen is a very important role in Australia. Shane Warne's come once a century.

Murali averaged 75 in Australia.

Ashwin averages 42 in Australia.

Swann averaged 53 in Australia.

Vettori averaged 45 in Australia.

Tim May averaged 40 in Australia, 34 overall.

Mallett averaged 33 in Australia.

Yardley averaged 32 in Australia. Had two very good years.

Australia has always been a graveyard for finger spinners.

 

[Mr Brightside]

One in every three wickets is a tailender. Taking a wicket every 33 runs on hard flat pitches with a soft ball against set batsmen is a very important role in Australia. Shane Warne's come once a century.

Murali averaged 75 in Australia.

Ashwin averages 42 in Australia.

Swann averaged 53 in Australia.

Vettori averaged 45 in Australia.

Tim May averaged 40 in Australia, 34 overall.

Mallett averaged 33 in Australia.

Yardley averaged 32 in Australia. Had two very good years.

Australia has always been a graveyard for finger spinners.

Don’t let facts get in the way of your story spook

It’s a bit harder for Lyon, however great bowlers take a Lot of wickets in the top order , taking a lot of tailenders wickets certainly helps the average .

Im now convinced there a waste of a spot in the 11

 

[spook]

Don’t let facts get in the way of your story spook

It’s a bit harder for Lyon, however great bowlers take a Lot of wickets in the top order , taking a lot of tailenders wickets certainly helps the average .

Im now convinced there a waste of a spot in the 11

Spinners have always cleaned up the tail. In fact, good bowlers always have.

The best and easiest way to take a lot of top order wickets is to be a fast bowler with a new ball.

You need to stop complaining that Lyon is not Shane Warne and appreciate him for what he is.

Not playing a spinner is usually a dumb move.

At the risk of inserting more facts into the conversation,

Wickets Taken by Batting Order

Nathan Lyon
Top Order (1-3)
103 (25.4%)

Middle Order(4-7)
170 (41.9%)

Tail (8-11)
133 (32.8%)


Shane Warne
Top Order (1-3)
163 (23.0%)

Middle Order(4-7)
282 (39.8%)

Tail (8-11)
263 (37.1%)

The defence rests.

Dunno about a dud but i think Starc is in the same sort of camp as Lyon/Brett Lee in terms of record.

I see he went past Dizzy Gillespie on the all time wickets list this game. Personally I'd take Dizzy before him even if I was choosing for today.

Dizzy was a champion.

McGrath-Gillespie is up there with Lillee-Thomson and Lindwall-Miller.

 

[mrposhman]

Robinson's dismissal yesterday to Lyon (umpires call on impact) compared to Smiths today for the same thing just showing a bit of the luck just not falling for England, but gets me to 1 thing I don't really understand, what its the purpose of the ball in an LBW call having to impact in line? If its going to hit the stumps why does it actually matter where exactly it hit the batsman????

I know its the rules, so not sooking about this decision, it is what it is, just not sure I really get the purpose of why this is included in the decision.

 

[Mr Brightside]

Spinners have always cleaned up the tail. In fact, good bowlers always have.

The best and easiest way to take a lot of top order wickets is to be a fast bowler with a new ball.

You need to stop complaining that Lyon is not Shane Warne and appreciate him for what he is.

Not playing a spinner is usually a dumb move.

At the risk of inserting more facts into the conversation,

Wickets Taken by Batting Order

Nathan Lyon
Top Order (1-3)
103 (25.4%)

Middle Order(4-7)
170 (41.9%)

Tail (8-11)
133 (32.8%)


Shane Warne
Top Order (1-3)
163 (23.0%)

Middle Order(4-7)
282 (39.8%)

Tail (8-11)
263 (37.1%)

The defence rests.


Dizzy was a champion.

McGrath-Gillespie is up there with Lillee-Thomson and Lindwall-Miller.

I think McGrath -Gillespie is our best combo

On Lyon , with all the facts and opinions of knowledgeable cricketers like yourself spook , I still see Lyon as very good in his role, however not in the elite category that a “ goat” should be , however that maybe more on the limitations an offie has compared to a leggy or quick

 

[Mr Brightside]

Which does skew those stats you shared a little. I'd imagine Warne got much less of a look at the 1-3 bats than Lyon, over the entire run of their careers. Only recently Lyon has had a really good quality pace attack.

Comparing Lyon to Warne is like comparing Nicklaus to Woods

 

[spook]

Which does skew those stats you shared a little. I'd imagine Warne got much less of a look at the 1-3 bats than Lyon, over the entire run of their careers. Only recently Lyon has had a really good quality pace attack.

There's no comparison between Warne and anyone, I was just showing that Lyon has taken his fair share of top order wickets and hasn't filled up on tailenders.

Having said that, Warne played twice as many Tests as Gillespie, was in the team five years earlier, and there were a couple of years there when he and May played with only two pacemen. 1993 Ashes tour of England springs to mind - after McDermott got hurt Mark Waugh opened the bowling in one Test. It was a very dry English summer with spinning pitches, not the green seamers they produce against us these days.

 

[Mr Brightside]

There's no comparison between Warne and anyone, I was just showing that Lyon has taken his fair share of top order wickets and hasn't filled up on tailenders.

Having said that, Warne played twice as many Tests as Gillespie, was in the team five years earlier, and there were a couple of years there when he and May played with only two pacemen. 1993 Ashes tour of England springs to mind - after McDermott got hurt Mark Waugh opened the bowling in one Test. It was a very dry English summer with spinning pitches, not the green seamers they produce against us these days.

Geez you look young for 78

 

[spook]

This breakdown of wickets by batting positions is good stuff.

McGrath:
Top Order (1-3)
225 (40.0%)

Middle Order(4-7)
196 (34.8%)

Tail (8-11)
142 (25.2%)

Lillee:
Top Order (1-3)
128 (36.1%)

Middle Order(4-7)
130 (36.6%)

Tail (8-11)
97 (27.3%)

Gillespie:
Top Order (1-3)
97 (37.5%)

Middle Order(4-7)
100 (38.6%)

Tail (8-11)
62 (23.9%)

McDermott:
Top Order (1-3)
106 (36.4%)

Middle Order(4-7)
114 (39.2%)

Tail (8-11)
71 (24.4%)

May:
Top Order (1-3)
21 (28.0%)

Middle Order(4-7)
37 (49.3%)

Tail (8-11)
17 (22.7%)

Yardley:
Top Order (1-3)
28 (22.2%)

Middle Order(4-7)
61 (48.4%)

Tail (8-11)
37 (29.4%)

Mallett:
Top Order (1-3)
22 (16.7%)

Middle Order(4-7)
61 (46.2%)

Tail (8-11)
49 (37.1%) (Chappelli was renowned for getting Mallett and/or Jenner to clean up the tail.)

Murali:
Top Order (1-3)
202 (25.3%)

Middle Order(4-7)
338 (42.3%)

Tail (8-11)
260 (32.5%)

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