CC on his last legs?

[Barnzy]

I can see both sides.

But its no point drafting all kids in each and every draft if we can't develop them.

And Development we haven't been successful with - I would go to say its the poorest thing amongst some poor things we do at this club.

You do make a good point. Doesn't matter if we recruit talented youth if we can't develop them into AFL players. Am bored at work and I was going over some Phantom drafts from 08, 07, 06, 05, etc on BF. One thing that stuck out to me like a beacon was a) Wow, we really love sliders. Rance (rated a first-rounder by most), Connors (rated a top 12 pick on their draft), Gourdis (rated a first-rounder, even up to top 5, Edwards (rated a top 12 pick in their draft).

But most of all it just showed me that if you can't develop elite juniors then you're in for some real troubles. Who's to say a player like Franklin would've developed into a 100+ goalkicker at Richmond? Maybe Tambling would already be a superstar if he went to Hawthorn? If G.Ablett was at Richmond would he have developed from that flashy forward into a genuine elite midfielder? Thankfully we have taken steps to rectify this recently with coaching staff personal and $$$.

 

[craig]

CC doing a good job pfffffft

Some very incompetant and inept short sighted decisions.

Big question marks over this bloke especially if the rumored contract extension to Polak is true.

 

[Tigers_06]

You do make a good point. Doesn't matter if we recruit talented youth if we can't develop them into AFL players. Am bored at work and I was going over some Phantom drafts from 08, 07, 06, 05, etc on BF. One thing that stuck out to me like a beacon was a) Wow, we really love sliders. Rance (rated a first-rounder by most), Connors (rated a top 12 pick on their draft), Gourdis (rated a first-rounder, even up to top 5, Edwards (rated a top 12 pick in their draft).

But most of all it just showed me that if you can't develop elite juniors then you're in for some real troubles. Who's to say a player like Franklin would've developed into a 100+ goalkicker at Richmond? Maybe Tambling would already be a superstar if he went to Hawthorn? If G.Ablett was at Richmond would he have developed from that flashy forward into a genuine elite midfielder? Thankfully we have taken steps to rectify this recently with coaching staff personal and $$$.

Is this your way of saying having a go at CC was wrong? ;D

 

[Barnzy]

Is this your way of saying having a go at CC was wrong? ;D

Not at all because they go hand in hand with each other. Recruitment and development. CC still has question marks over him as Craig says.

 

[the claw]

Are you wanting to discuss something sensibly or do you just want to bag?

You made a point about CC drafting only 2 18 year-olds last year, I pointed out that it was actually 4 and that they already had another. My point is that an 18 year-old is an 18 year-old until he turns 19. When and how he got on the list is irrelevant.

this is wrong. is it not better to take kids early in the nd than later in the rookie draft etc.

why was it right to use just 2 picks last yr in an uncompromised draft but one yr later use as many as 9 in the nd and turn over 12 14 players.

it was clear to most we had to turn over the list yet we chose not to.

it is a valid question and it was camerons job to get list management right. it was a terrible blunder by the rfc and it does have dire consequeces.

i dont want to come across as bagging cameron but sheesh his record is poor. do we put our head in the sand and pretend we got it right or just be honest.

pardon if wrong but we had just 5 players this yr 20 or under not including rookies.to me this is critical if 2 fail you have a hole in your list again, to me its a hole already anyway.
this yr we had 17 22 or under i would hazard a guess and say this is significantly behind most clubs in numbers.

common sense says last yr was the latest to leave it to clean out it did not happen. is it not unreasonable to question the wisdom of this.

 

[mb64]

CC doing a good job pfffffft

Some very incompetant and inept short sighted decisions.

Big question marks over this bloke especially if the rumored contract extension to Polak is true.

On the mark as per usual Craig

 

[Scoop]

this is wrong. is it not better to take kids early in the nd than later in the rookie draft etc.

why was it right to use just 2 picks last yr in an uncompromised draft but one yr later use as many as 9 in the nd and turn over 12 14 players.

it was clear to most we had to turn over the list yet we chose not to.

it is a valid question and it was camerons job to get list management right. it was a terrible blunder by the rfc and it does have dire consequeces.

i dont want to come across as bagging cameron but sheesh his record is poor. do we put our head in the sand and pretend we got it right or just be honest.

pardon if wrong but we had just 5 players this yr 20 or under not including rookies.to me this is critical if 2 fail you have a hole in your list again, to me its a hole already anyway.
this yr we had 17 22 or under i would hazard a guess and say this is significantly behind most clubs in numbers.

common sense says last yr was the latest to leave it to clean out it did not happen. is it not unreasonable to question the wisdom of this.

Spot on.

 

[Tigers_06]

Not at all because they go hand in hand with each other. Recruitment and development. CC still has question marks over him as Craig says.

Agree that he has some question marks over him, just believe it is wrong to lay the blame for the amount of picks or players taken solely at his feet. As I said he can only act on what the senior coach tells him. Otherwise you have a list manager telling the head coach here is your playing list, you work out a gameplan to suit it.

this is wrong. is it not better to take kids early in the nd than later in the rookie draft etc.

why was it right to use just 2 picks last yr in an uncompromised draft but one yr later use as many as 9 in the nd and turn over 12 14 players.

it was clear to most we had to turn over the list yet we chose not to.

it is a valid question and it was camerons job to get list management right. it was a terrible blunder by the rfc and it does have dire consequeces.

i dont want to come across as bagging cameron but sheesh his record is poor. do we put our head in the sand and pretend we got it right or just be honest.

pardon if wrong but we had just 5 players this yr 20 or under not including rookies.to me this is critical if 2 fail you have a hole in your list again, to me its a hole already anyway.
this yr we had 17 22 or under i would hazard a guess and say this is significantly behind most clubs in numbers.

common sense says last yr was the latest to leave it to clean out it did not happen. is it not unreasonable to question the wisdom of this.

As mentioned Claw, its not solely CCs fault that we only took so many picks. If the head coach tells him that he wants to keep 34 players on the list what can he do?

 

[Disco08]

Am I right in suggesting that "list management" refers to contracts and the like and not so much list structure as such? Wouldn't the coach be making the decisions on his player's futures?

 

[Tigers_06]

Am I right in suggesting that "list management" refers to contracts and the like and not so much list structure as such? Wouldn't the coach be making the decisions on his player's futures?

Thats the way I understand it. The head coach does his assessment of the playing list and suggests that these players can be moved on, these players can be kept and these ones can be used for trades. Last year TW thought we were locked and loaded so delisted and traded accordingly. This year Hardwick believes we're stuffed and need a rebuild as such he is delisting and trading accordingly. The way I look at it, all CC is basically there to do is to ensure that we meet the salary cap minimum and don't exceed the maximum from year to year.

 

[Mr Brightside]

Blood pressure is up a little an diet not exactly perfect, however wouldnt say Im on my last legs ;D

 

[Smoking Aces]

this is wrong. is it not better to take kids early in the nd than later in the rookie draft etc.

why was it right to use just 2 picks last yr in an uncompromised draft but one yr later use as many as 9 in the nd and turn over 12 14 players.

it was clear to most we had to turn over the list yet we chose not to.

it is a valid question and it was camerons job to get list management right. it was a terrible blunder by the rfc and it does have dire consequeces.

i dont want to come across as bagging cameron but sheesh his record is poor. do we put our head in the sand and pretend we got it right or just be honest.

pardon if wrong but we had just 5 players this yr 20 or under not including rookies.to me this is critical if 2 fail you have a hole in your list again, to me its a hole already anyway.
this yr we had 17 22 or under i would hazard a guess and say this is significantly behind most clubs in numbers.

common sense says last yr was the latest to leave it to clean out it did not happen. is it not unreasonable to question the wisdom of this.

I think we are all under estimating the say one T. Wallace had in our list management.

 

[TOT70]

this is wrong. is it not better to take kids early in the nd than later in the rookie draft etc.

why was it right to use just 2 picks last yr in an uncompromised draft but one yr later use as many as 9 in the nd and turn over 12 14 players.

it was clear to most we had to turn over the list yet we chose not to.

it is a valid question and it was camerons job to get list management right. it was a terrible blunder by the rfc and it does have dire consequeces.

i dont want to come across as bagging cameron but sheesh his record is poor. do we put our head in the sand and pretend we got it right or just be honest.

pardon if wrong but we had just 5 players this yr 20 or under not including rookies.to me this is critical if 2 fail you have a hole in your list again, to me its a hole already anyway.
this yr we had 17 22 or under i would hazard a guess and say this is significantly behind most clubs in numbers.

common sense says last yr was the latest to leave it to clean out it did not happen. is it not unreasonable to question the wisdom of this.

You can't be suggesting that this bit is wrong: "My point is that an 18 year-old is an 18 year-old until he turns 19", so you must be referring to the point about what does it matter how someone gets on the list.

What does it matter?

Does it matter than Foley, Rutten, Cox, Drummond and Sandilands were rookies and that others were taken in the National Draft? They are all taking up one place each on an AFL list. That is a point that I keep making, drafting is inexact because many players find their way onto AFL lists as 18 year-olds but are generally not ready for the rigours of the game until they are 21-22, notwithstanding a few notable exceptions like Judd and J Selwood.

Yes, we know that choosing earlier gives a better chance, etc, etc.

We have had this discussion before. Most teams have exercised similar numbers of choices over a rolling five or seven year period. At various stages they make decisions about whether they are happy with what they have in the short-term or whether they are going back to the well again. RFC didn't go back to the well last year, for whatever reason and they have changed that strategy this year.

Who is to say that one draft is better or worse than another? The 2002 draft was pilloried for years but it has now produced more good footballers than the more highly touted 2003 draft.

 

[Disco08]

Blood pressure is up a little an diet not exactly perfect, however wouldnt say Im on my last legs ;D

You were actually my main concern when I saw this thread, what with all the Zingers and Sausage McMuffins. ;D

 

[the claw]

true or not i dont know and would take anything wallace says atm with a grain of salt, but wallace has regularly said he had little to do with list management and recruiting. ithink there is some truth in this as most clubs operate along these lines.

any way its irrelevant cc has a job to do did he do it and did he do it well. clearly not the buck stops with him. none of this wallace made me do it *smile* washes with me. if he let wallace sway him tough the buck still stops at his door.

 

[TOT70]

You were actually my main concern when I saw this thread, what with all the Zingers and Sausage McMuffins. ;D

I thought it meant CCTiger had run out of KFC chicken drumsticks.

Disaster!

 

[Mr Magic]

CC's on his last legs is he?.......poor bugger.........hope he gets better soon!

We need him fit in 5 weeks time so we can go into the draft with a team that is 'cherry ripe' to pick some guys that are going to 'stick fat' with the team.

 

[Tiger74]

I always knew those Popcorn Chicken Kebabs would be the end of CC :-\

 

[GoodOne]

So in your opinion we should just keep recycling then like we've done in the past for all those glorious results?

Recycling is a necessity. The problem isnt recycling per say, its who we have been recycling. In the past most of our recycling has been for players in their mid-20s, often higher with the belief that we only need to top up. Some of this perceived need has been because of the poor list management that created a gaping hole in a a large age group. However, in recent years think we have vastly improved our recycling policy. Sure a couple of doubts but on the whole we have started targetting younger players 20yo or thereabouts. These are YOUNG players who have potential to improve. Morton, Thompson, Hislop, Nahas as opposed to Biddiscombe, Fleming, Houlihan, Holland, Hudson, Kingsley, Nicholls, Bowden, Sziller and the rest.

 

[Barnzy]

Recycling is a necessity. The problem isnt recycling per say, its who we have been recycling. In the past most of our recycling has been for players in their mid-20s, often higher with the belief that we only need to top up. Some of this perceived need has been because of the poor list management that created a gaping hole in a a large age group. However, in recent years think we have vastly improved our recycling policy. Sure a couple of doubts but on the whole we have started targetting younger players 20yo or thereabouts. These are YOUNG players who have potential to improve. Morton, Thompson, Hislop, Nahas as opposed to Biddiscombe, Fleming, Houlihan, Holland, Hudson, Kingsley, Nicholls, Bowden, Sziller and the rest.

Nahas was drafted from the VFL and you left out McMahon. Thomson and Hislop have done next to nothing as we speak and so far proven why their clubs let them go so easily/delisted them. Morton has really only been our trading success story, maybe the Simmonds deal was good but it doesn't really help us now since he's past it. I disagree with you though, trading isn't a necessity at all - see Adelaide. You just have to make the most of your picks in the draft and pick the best avaliable young talent. Picking up other clubs discards is not a great way to advance your list in our situation IMO and it's one of the main reasons we're in this mess as you say. Think it's best for us to stay right away from trading for players unless it's a very, very good deal for us.