-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
CC on his last legs?
- Thread starter Barnzy
- Start date
SCOOP said:
You pick JON as your example and I can't argue with that - hes the single biggest drafting blunder we have made.
But i reckon for a lot of others its our development and culture of the club that has stopped them reaching their maximum potentials -
Heck thats from our best in LIDS all the way down to the Pattisons and Hughes.
SCOOP said:
Irregardless if they were wrong choices - we have still failed in Development - They were still highly rated juniors none the less.
As to Lids - He is a 2 time Best and fairest winner at RICHMOND. not much competition
Where would he sit at other clubs. He would be a better player as at now IMO if he was at another club thats for sure.
Ruthless Tiger said:
Simple, He overules the coach.
Disco08 said:
Ruthless Tiger said:
You guys are underselling the role of the list manager in football at most clubs. & most certainly ours.
The list manager heads up a list management committee. He also has the final say on all list management decisions. Whether they be should be how many players be kept on, & which one's whether that be for reasons, of age, type or class. How many draft picks we should take, & which age & type we look for.
Ask yourselves this, how can the coach be making decisions on how many players we keep. He doesn't have the knowledge of the quality of the draft & likely class of the picks we could get in to replace them. Francis Jackson knows this & reports it through to CC. Likewise the coach reports through to CC where his players stand on field which one's he doesn't see a future for or whoch players he may like to get in as a trade. He then makes what should be an informed impartial decision on whats best for the club going forward. In our case it should be for the long term & should have been last year as well. Which is argueable. In any case no-one else but CC has responsibility for any list decision.
Chris Pelchen was the first to have this role & power. He made the call last year that even though they were premiers the draft was deep & went with a lot of youth. With the information he's been given from his staff this year he obviously feels thats not the case so they targetted experienced players. Only time will tell if he is right.
Some other clubs have more power to the coach. i.e Collingwood (Though Hine now has a lot more say) Essendon with Sheedy (which hurt them later on), Paul Roos & Voss now.
But like us most clubs have an overarching list manager like Dodoro, Harrington, Pelchen, Fantasia that should see the bigger picture & be have more information to make a better long term decision. But with that comes responsibility & the blowtorch whether good or bad.
Leysy Days said:
Come on daisy, you know that it's not that simple at all.
For example Pelchen has been overruled a number of times by Clarkson but given the Hawks successes no one complains.
No doubt Bomber works closely with Balme just as Lyon does with Matthew Drain too.
Likewise Hardwick will be working with Cameron on many decisions once he gets more of a handle on the list needs and requirements.
Coach and list manager will work together on several decisions and both will ultimately live and die by their choices as part of the football department.
Cameron hasn't yet met the same fate as Wallet/Miller because relatively he's been there much less time.
I've been fairly pleased with the way CC has handled things so far since Wallet's departure this silly season, though there are still some pressing decisions to be made.
What I do find astounding regardless of his performance is that he was given a 5 year deal.
Appreciate the description Leysy. I'm actually of the opinion the way you've described it is the way it should be. Top notch organisations like the Red Sox operate in exactly this way. I'm just inclined to think AFL coaches tend to assert more influence, especially over players already on the list. I'd really love to see a definitve breakdown of where responsibility actually lies.
Tigers of Old said:
Yes it is. Clarkson does not overrule Pelchen. How can he, Clarkson can't overrule the person responsible for all draft selections.
Does he put forward a case to convince Pelchen of the potential benefits. Definately.
Dew is a perfect case in point. It was still Pelchen saying OK alright then I'll go with you on this one & reading out Dew's name. He could just as easily said no we are going with Zaharakis & it would have happened.
We can all imagine Wallace pleading the case & so-called benefits of trading for McMahon. Should Miller have told him sorry Terry you deluded fool we don't want a soft unskilled half back for that pick. Definately as well. Wallace didn't overrule Miller as you suggest, Miller wasn't strong enough to say NO. Ergo it his responsibility.
Tigers of Old said:
Of course they work together. Very closely. However, the list manager at a lot of clubs like us & Hawthorn now has the final say.
The list manager will accede to the coaches points on most things. But at the end of the day it is he, not the coach who is signing off on all contracts & he is never overruled at clubs like ours with this setup in place.
IMO when it comes to recycled players the decision should be soley on the coach,along with who should stay and go.CC and Co can have input but the final decision should be left with the coach.
Leysy Days said:
There are 3 things that you are overlooking:
1) At the end of 08 TW thought we were locked and loaded and as such he wouldn't have wanted to make too many changes to his list. He would have gone to list management meetings very confident that he has a list together that was about to launch into the finals. Remember TW is not some rookie coach, he was a bloke who thought he knew it all and Obviously this was wrong and TW paid the price for failing to deliver.
2) It is a list management committee, its not just one man but a group making the decisions. CC, FJ and TW as well as various others were on the committee and they all would have had input on the direction, but overall it is the senior coach who has final say afterall it is his gameplan, he needs to have the players who fit the gameplan. No point the list manager going out and cutting the list and giving the coach a list that doesn't fit that gameplan. CC might have wanted to make more changes but if he doesn't have the backing of the coach, then all he is going to do is cause friction. The thing with all those other list managers is they have a good relationship with their senior coach, they all seem to be on the same page. It is my belief, that overall, it is the senior coach that has the major say in the make up of the list.
3) Most of the players that we have ended up cutting this year were contracted last year. Even if CC wanted to cut more than TW wanted to his hands were pretty much tied. I don't think anyone we cut this year was only one a 1 year deal that was signed last year.
As I said Cameron hasn't done everything right, but I think to lay the blame solely at his feet for our current position is wrong. He was part of a group that stuffed up, it appears that everyone is now pulling in the same direction.
Leysy Days said:
How do you know that?
It has regularly been reported that Clarkson demanded Pelchen take Dew despite his reservations, rightly too.
So Pelchen signed the paperwork? Big deal. Can't see how that's much different to our club at all, except that the decision paid dividends.
SCOOP said:
For every bad Wallet decision there's a good example ala Dew elsewhere.
It's not the coach or the list manager solely responsible. Both live and die by these draft decisions hence they largely make these decisions on recycleds together.
Junior recruiting? That's another matter altogether and don't believe the coach should get involved in that at all.
So if DH says to CC,I believe i can get the best out of Luke Ball and he will be a perfect fit for my game plan,CC is going to knock him back?SCOOP said:
On what basis would CC say no?
If he says no then he hasn,t got the confidence in DH,s ability as a coach.
That is why the coach should always have the final say.
Tigers of Old said:
Direct quotes as per Emma Quayles book.
Gary Buckenara put the case forward for two players - Hugh Sandilands & Dan McKenna. - then excerpts -
After length discussion 20 seconds were left to make the call.
"After hearing all that do you still want Dewy? Pelchen asked Clarkson. Clarkson did.
"Ok then:. said Chris. "Lets go with him".
Pelchen drove the discussion & placed trust in his coach in this one. But at the end of the day it certainly wasn't demanded from him & it was certainly Pelchens making the final call to go side with his coach.
CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:
Tigers of Old said:
Thats just it. Whoever makes any trading calls needs to be across juniors to know what we are giving up in young talent to do any trade or take a recycled. Coaches aren't.
CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:
If he believes the draft pick used to get Ball would be of better use to us on a young talent.
After all, DH is not across the draft as CC is. He is better informed to weigh all of the pro's and cons for what we'd be giving up to make the final call. It certainly doesn't stop DH from putting across his views & having major input though. Just that he rightly doesn't give the final tick or cross.
What's most likely? A list manager saying to the coach "I've got you 'player A' whether you want him or not now find a role in your game plan for him", or the coach saying to the list manager "I need such and such kind of player would you mind finding who's available who could fit that role". No good a list manager selecting players who don't suit the coaches plans. I'd be very surprised if a list manager isn't largely guided by the senior coach and would have to bow down if the coach didn't want a certain player as part of his team.
Who would have had the most say, after the supporters of course, about Cousins becoming a Tiger? I'd hazard a guess that Terry would have had to give his approval and have a role in mind before signing him no matter how much CC wanted him at the club.
Leysy what, given your example, would happen if Clarkson really didn't want Dew in his team? Would (edit-/could) Pelchen have had the last say and insisted he be signed
Who would have had the most say, after the supporters of course, about Cousins becoming a Tiger? I'd hazard a guess that Terry would have had to give his approval and have a role in mind before signing him no matter how much CC wanted him at the club.
Leysy what, given your example, would happen if Clarkson really didn't want Dew in his team? Would (edit-/could) Pelchen have had the last say and insisted he be signed
Good thread this. Good points.
I am still with Leysy on this one. It is CC's job to be aware of what the best long term choice will be for the RFC when it comes down to list management.
"Thats just it. Whoever makes any trading calls needs to be across juniors to know what we are giving up in young talent to do any trade or take a recycled. Coaches aren't."
That sums up perfectly in my book.
I am still with Leysy on this one. It is CC's job to be aware of what the best long term choice will be for the RFC when it comes down to list management.
"Thats just it. Whoever makes any trading calls needs to be across juniors to know what we are giving up in young talent to do any trade or take a recycled. Coaches aren't."
That sums up perfectly in my book.
rosy23 said:
In your example yes Pelshen could bring in a player who the coach doesn't want in his team. But it would never happen. A list manager is not going to bring a player in who the coach doesn't believe in. It would be no help to anybody.
On Cousins, Wallace was keen. He would have pitched his worth to CC. Who by the looks of it did a lot of umming & ahhing said yes, no, maybe, then saw the hords of RFC supporters clammering for our saviour & then said. *smile* I better. ;D
Like i said the whole football dept will have input including more importantly FJ,s input which both CC and DH would be well aware of when it came to making a decision to go recyled or kid.SCOOP said:
Once its all on the plate in front of dH,He should have the final say.
