CC on his last legs?

[Disco08]

barnzys question is simple was useing just 2 nd picks acceptable delisting so few was that acceptable who he signed or didnt sign are a side issue what process did he go thru last with rebuilding the list in mind. there wasnt one it was made up as we went.

No one said we were rebuilding last year though. Obviously Wallet thought we were good things to make the 8 and I suspect so did most of the board given March's comments during the preseason. Cameron might be the list manager but I'll bet he's obligated to follow the direction set down by the board.

This year it's been made loud and clear we're starting another rebuild and so far it looks like every effort's been made to clear the list of as much deadwood as possible.

 

[the claw]

Never really been a fan of Craig Cameron. Sure, he probably does a better job than Greg Miller but there's been some massive mistakes over the past year or so that has hurt the club greatly. From the re-signings of duds like King and Schulz to the massive debacle that was last year's draft. We only took 2 18 year old's (Vickery & Post) in a draft that looks super strong with the top 10 looking like it will rival the 'super draft' and it ran very deep, all the way into the rookie draft in fact. This was even more staggering when everyone knew about the impending GC/WSYD rampage on the draft and the raping it will recieve in years to come. Young talent will be scarse so last year's draft had to be taken advantage of or you would suffer the consequences. Heck, even Freo saw the writing on the wall and cut like there was no tomorrow, picking up a bunch of great kids even right down to their last pick.

The questions have to be asked, why didn't CC see this and take the right path? Possibly, Wally might've wanted some more top ups (which he got) but we only took 2 18 year old's...staggers me. Surely CC must be on his last legs and if he stuffs this draft up I'm sure he will be out the door. In looking back people might say 'hindsight' but I don't buy that argument, if he was doing his job properly then he would've put 2 and 2 together and gone, right.....very strong draft + 2 new impending teams with their draft concessions = have to cut very hard and draft a few more kids than normal. Well, that's what I would've thought anyways. The '08 draft will hurt us for many, many years to come now. For me, it's right up there on the top of the list with other past mistakes, a complete catastrophe.

havent said it before barnzy but great post and yes the questions should be asked but it seems some think differently why ask questions even if they should be,

 

[the claw]

Forgive me for stating the obvious (It is obvious isn't it?) but TOT was pointing out that we still have plenty of teenagers on our list (counting Cotchin and Rance) and that he doesn't think drafting teenagers in the be-all and end-all that you make it out to be. The inclusion is entirely consistent with his argument and not a "stretch" as you claim.

do we compared to whom.

 

[the claw]

If Vickery and Post end up being very very good players, as I hope, CC will be a genius. Time will tell. Until then...Bin thread.

already hes a genius and for all the wrong reasons.

 

[the claw]

I agree this will happen, but on Barnzys side hes allowed his opinion, and theres another 100 blokes on this site like that.

only after a reasonable amount of time i dont know any who call for heads inside say two yrs most get 3 or 4yrs.
in fact its usually the long term underachievers that cop the calls to delist. just because a criticism is aimed at a player does it mean a call to delist but so many act as though it is.

 

[the claw]

No one said we were rebuilding last year though. Obviously Wallet thought we were good things to make the 8 and I suspect so did most of the board given March's comments during the preseason. Cameron might be the list manager but I'll bet he's obligated to follow the direction set down by the board.

This year it's been made loud and clear we're starting another rebuild and so far it looks like every effort's been made to clear the list of as much deadwood as possible.

ppppffffttttt making more excuses. it was camerons job to know what needed to be done but lets shift the blame to terry shall we after all hes no longer at the club.
where does the buck stop someone has to be responsible.

 

[the claw]

Agree, not going to sack someone for sake of sacking someone but if they're incompetent at their job they have to go. Last year's draft suggests CC isn't great but lets see if he's learned from his mistakes. As I said before, this draft will make or break him, let's hope he enters it with a new plan and direction.

rather reasonable i would have thought

 

[the claw]

RFC's problems have been caused by a lack of clear direction over a thirty year period. Too many coaches coming and going without seeing out their plans, too many adminstrators coming and going, too many boom recruits who lasted only a year or two, too many recycled players who did nothing, too many kids who did nothing, too many new directions with all the accompanying sackings, too many false starts, too much wasted money paying people out, too many factions jostling for power, too many people lost to the club. They are the goldfish of the AFL, losing all memory of the past every few years.

What it needs more than anything else is stability, a clear plan and the intestinal fortitude to stick to it. Sacking everyone in sight again won't help, especially if they require massive payouts to convince them to leave.

Just my opinion again.

thats a very good post and agree except on one point.

you have to sack people who dont do their jobs well keeping these people just to see out a contract just makes the problem worst.

 

[the claw]

Explain to me why Hislop was categorically a mistake at this point in time.

Cutting an extra 2 or 3 kids would have meant using picks 84, 85 and 86. Not usually the best place to find long term talent.

oh dear around and around it goes. is it all right to use late picks this yr. i dont see anyone complaining oh but thats right the club is planning it this yr. with so much talent gone from the draft before it even begins surely you cut deep last yr.

hmm did we not trade for a 22 yr old by giving up pick 42 did we need to go after a clone with our next pick.
already this has hurt us they wanted mcculloch and was hoping he would last to pick 70 they were certainly pissed when he went at 69 .

 

[the claw]

I will. Because he is a lemon. The excuses trotted out on his behalf are embarrasssing.

It is not just CC, Richmond has always failed to grasp the importance of the draft.

And while picks 84,85,86 in all probablity will not be good enough, at least we would be rolling the dice and having a shot. Sticking with a list that you know is not good enough but then fearing to roll the dice because one of the options is to actually get worse seems to be a common thought process among many including the RFC.

Do you stay middle of the road or gamble on winning a flag with a high risk probability of going backwards?

I would rather take the gamble.

here here well said agree except you are to quick to judge hislop maybe right but to quick.

 

[the claw]

You've missed my point. The point is at least we are picking up youngsters rather than 26yo's. They have far more chance of improving and providing for the long-term for when we are hopefully competitive again. I wasn't judging on how well Thomson and Hislop will go in the future, although I think Thomson will prove to be a great pickup. As far as I am concerned Nahas is a recycled player. Just because he wasnt an AFL player, he was a mature player when we recruited him and ignored by all AFL clubs. But yes we did only rookie him. I think trading is a necessity at times. I have no problems with trading for 20yo's as long as you are not trading your first couple of rounds and as long as you are picking up draft picks elsehwere maybe through a player trade or two. Adelaide, are not one generally for trading away picks but in 2007 they traded a pick 28 for Brad Symes and Brad Moran for Pick 37 , however they also traded two players for 2nd rounders that year. But speaking of Adelaide, whilst they have remained relatively competitive their last premiership was 11 tears ago.. Maybe you could argue that may have been different if they did at times strategically trade that extra experienced player or two in place of a youngster or two.

i would rephrase that and say at least we are taking younger recycleds we have not taken a lot of kids.

have to say TOT, you are somewhat changing the subject here, barnzys point is a valid one, we should really have made the call on the older players 2 years ago, when wallace reassessed his 5 year plan and indicated that our list wasn't good enough and we would need at least 7 years to challenge, when deledio got to a mature age. At that point, we should have traded for picks spent the next 2 years topping up via the national draft.

as to your points above, i disagree, how can you say we have had too many coaches coming and going, we have only had 2 coaches and there hasn't been that much change at board/president level in the last 10 years, and all players bar Richo were picked up under those two coaches.. So i struggle to see how bringing what we were doing in say the bartlett era has to do with our current situation. If anything, we went the other way and in order to appear to be seen as a stable club, kept people Frawley,Miller,Wallace on for two long, when we should have just called it and sacked them.. Who cares what kind of club we are seen as.. Stability, and a clear plan, and intestinal fortitude is only good if you have the right plan, and people executing it.. otherwise it is just lunacy and it doesn't help.

and thats just my opinion

well said.

 

[Tigerbob]

already hes a genius and for all the wrong reasons.

I'll step in now.

Who is calling him a genius? Geez mate, take a chill pill and relax a little.

You mention we can't start of with a clean slate? Why not? We have new direction and a new philosophy of where we want to get to and how. So why not just relax and see what takes place this trade, draft and delisting period before acting along with Barnzy as hyperventilating panic merchants.

My mates as you asked before seem to rate Craig Cameron very highly. Looking back on his time in Melbourne, did they not make a Grand Final and had numerous finals appearances in his time? They describe him as very organised and is extremely professional. Looking at Melbourne's recent history, getting them to a Grand Final is a solid effort I would have thought.

If you cannot see that the club has changed it's philosophies now that the salesman has left the club and the club is actually going in the direction that you and Barnzy are wanting then I do feel sorry for you. They will make some mistakes, all clubs do, but right now, they are telling us, openly that they want to utilise the draft and build a list that can develop at the Richmond Football Club.

So what's the problem? Forget about last season. What's happened, has happened. If they make the same mistake now, you can carry on like a panic merchant all you want. Until then, this carry on in threads is painful. So far since Damian Hardwick has taken control, what can you complain about?

 

[Tiger74]

agree with that 100% bobby.

a clean start means just that

I am sick of the navel gazing that goes on around here. We still *smile* about not drafting Pavlich and Franklin. ITS DONE. The people involved are gone, complaining and crying won't change it, so whats the point?

We have a new coach, new support team, and will be seeing a bunch of new faces in 2010. It is a new start.

As for those who are losing faith in Hardwick already.....do you want to wait until at least one training session has concluded before you get the noose out?

 

[the claw]

You need to read what I said their problem wasn't recruiting per se it was their list management and making sure the list was properly structured. He wasn't List Mgr there, a large part of the list mgt of Melbourne at the time would have been on Neale Daniher and he kept too many older players for too long just like us.

hmm general manager recruiting and list management that was his title at melb. sort of suggests he was in charge of both.

 

[the claw]

Re: Rookie plan puts Tiger Graham Polak at mercy of draft

You're the one who displays a lack of thinking and more especially barnzy, you both display a reflexive, unthinking negativety towards the club and anyone involved in it where nothing they do is right. IMHO CC is still up in the air in his combination of List Mgr and General Mgr for Football but I'm not going to label him a dud until there is evidence to do so. And despite what you both say there were positives from last years trade and draft period, the world isn't black and white.

this post is what i mean when i talk about people reading into things that arent there. what a reply. and how incorrect is it who called cc a dud anyone anyone at all.

all barnzy has done is basically question the wisdom of some re-signings and the lack of picks and clean out last yr with gc17 comming. and this is unthinking reflexive negativity na i know whos being reflexive and over the top.
nothing unreasonable about it at all in fact the ones who are unreasonable are those over the top excuse makers you would think barnzy has said we should fold or something.

 

[the claw]

I'll step in now.

Who is calling him a genius? Geez mate, take a chill pill and relax a little.

You mention we can't start of with a clean slate? Why not? We have new direction and a new philosophy of where we want to get to and how. So why not just relax and see what takes place this trade, draft and delisting period before acting along with Barnzy as hyperventilating panic merchants.

My mates as you asked before seem to rate Craig Cameron very highly. Looking back on his time in Melbourne, did they not make a Grand Final and had numerous finals appearances in his time? They describe him as very organised and is extremely professional. Looking at Melbourne's recent history, getting them to a Grand Final is a solid effort I would have thought.

If you cannot see that the club has changed it's philosophies now that the salesman has left the club and the club is actually going in the direction that you and Barnzy are wanting then I do feel sorry for you. They will make some mistakes, all clubs do, but right now, they are telling us, openly that they want to utilise the draft and build a list that can develop at the Richmond Football Club.

So what's the problem? Forget about last season. What's happened, has happened. If they make the same mistake now, you can carry on like a panic merchant all you want. Until then, this carry on in threads is painful. So far since Damian Hardwick has taken control, what can you complain about?

this whole debate has been about Cameron and his performance last yr nothing more. it is only a voicing of concerns because of poor performance.
you can keep all your feel good stories mate and forget all you like it wont happen with me until they actually show they have learnt.
i have just two questions yes or no. did craig cameron do well last yr. and did the club go thru sound recruiting and list management procedures.

and mate i dont need a chill pill i couldnt be more calm its a simple debate and they are questions that should be asked at all clubs at all times no putting the head in the sand for some of us.

basically like our players camerons performance has been rated and it doesnt come up smelling of roses.

 

[the claw]

agree with that 100% bobby.

a clean start means just that

I am sick of the navel gazing that goes on around here. We still b!tch about not drafting Pavlich and Franklin. ITS DONE. The people involved are gone, complaining and crying won't change it, so whats the point?

We have a new coach, new support team, and will be seeing a bunch of new faces in 2010. It is a new start.

As for those who are losing faith in Hardwick already.....do you want to wait until at least one training session has concluded before you get the noose out?

pppfffttt i have not seen one poster say he is losing faith with hardwick. for myself im impressed thus far.
this debate is not about hardwick its about the 2008 draft and list management and the job done.
some of us think it was poor and are doing nothing more than stating this.

 

[Disco08]

ppppffffttttt making more excuses. it was camerons job to know what needed to be done but lets shift the blame to terry shall we after all hes no longer at the club.
where does the buck stop someone has to be responsible.

I'm not trying make excuses, I'm trying to look at the situation objectively.

Why don't you try and actually address the point? Did you see anyone from Richmond coming out and saying we were rebuilding last October?

I agree it was a stuff up from all involved including Cameron. The supporters seemed to know that the list we had wasn't going to go anywhere in a hurry but for some reason the blokes in charge thought we were locked and loaded. However the blame lies with all of them, not just Cameron.

 

[Disco08]

oh dear around and around it goes. is it all right to use late picks this yr. i dont see anyone complaining oh but thats right the club is planning it this yr. with so much talent gone from the draft before it even begins surely you cut deep last yr.

hmm did we not trade for a 22 yr old by giving up pick 42 did we need to go after a clone with our next pick.
already this has hurt us they wanted mcculloch and was hoping he would last to pick 70 they were certainly p!ssed when he went at 69 .

I've already agreed with the second point. Getting both Hislop and Thomson seems like a mistake. Passing on 70 also seemed stupid at the time and still does if you ask me. Even picking up Cousins wasn't something I was in favour of. I like him and think he's been good but I'd have preferred to roll the dice on another kid with that spot.

As far as taking picks after everyone's finished, how often has that worked for clubs in the past? Ever?

 

[the claw]

I'm not trying make excuses, I'm trying to look at the situation objectively.

Why don't you try and actually address the point? Did you see anyone from Richmond coming out and saying we were rebuilding last October?

I agree it was a stuff up from all involved including Cameron. The supporters seemed to know that the list we had wasn't going to go anywhere in a hurry but for some reason the blokes in charge thought we were locked and loaded. However the blame lies with all of them, not just Cameron.

ah so you agree after all that like pulling teeth it is. yep they all got it wrong but the buck stops with cameron it was his job to make sure stuff ups like this dont happen thats what we pay him for. it was down to him to make sure the club did go into rebuild but he didnt he failed and failed badly.

I've already agreed with the second point. Getting both Hislop and Thomson seems like a mistake. Passing on 70 also seemed stupid at the time and still does if you ask me. Even picking up Cousins wasn't something I was in favour of. I like him and think he's been good but I'd have preferred to roll the dice on another kid with that spot.

As far as taking picks after everyone's finished, how often has that worked for clubs in the past? Ever?

again you agree . perhaps the question to people should be what did he get right last yr.

as for taking picks when everyone is finished or in other words picks in the 60 or 70s,
clubs take few picks after the 4th round im sure if you worked out the percentages of players taken to players getting a regular game it would be passable for such late picks. there are players there worth taking but like all late picks and rookie picks you really have to be prepared to cop a high percentage of failures.

i have to ask should a club in our situation forgo those late picks i dont think so.

let me put it this way if we get two core list players or better than core list out of picks 67 72 83 99 and the psd and at the same time get rid of 5 players who we know are taking us nowhere it is a win dont you think. sheesh even if we dont get a player imo its a break even situation at the very least we would be turning them over. sheesh the amount of times over the yrs ive been thru this. better to try and do something than sit on our hands and persevere with obvious duds.