CC on his last legs?

[Disco08]

ah so you agree after all that like pulling teeth it is.

You're not wrong there.

yep they all got it wrong but the buck stops with cameron it was his job to make sure stuff ups like this dont happen thats what we pay him for. it was down to him to make sure the club did go into rebuild but he didnt he failed and failed badly.

One person doesn't make the decision to blow it all up and start rebuilding. That direction would come from board level after extensive discussions with the coach and all other members of the football staff. Unless you're privy to the discussions that took place to this end you can't have any idea who's actually to blame. I have a hard time believing Wallet wasn't a very big part of the problem though.

again you agree .

Yep. More than once.

let me put it this way if we get two core list players or better than core list out of picks 67 72 83 99 and the psd and at the same time get rid of 5 players who we know are taking us nowhere it is a win dont you think.

Of course it is. But if they all turn out to be no better than mediocre, how long are you going to let them clog up the list for? At least 2 years given all draftees get a minimum contract. I'd be more inclined to try and spread out the delistings over 2 or 3 years rather than loading up on late picks in one draft.

I think one or two speculative picks a year is more than enough. The rookie list is the place for these type of players.

 

[the claw]

You're not wrong there.

One person doesn't make the decision to blow it all up and start rebuilding. That direction would come from board level after extensive discussions with the coach and all other members of the football staff. Unless you're privy to the discussions that took place to this end you can't have any idea who's actually to blame. I have a hard time believing Wallet wasn't a very big part of the problem though.

Yep. More than once.

Of course it is. But if they all turn out to be no better than mediocre, how long are you going to let them clog up the list for? At least 2 years given all draftees get a minimum contract. I'd be more inclined to try and spread out the delistings over 2 or 3 years rather than loading up on late picks in one draft.

I think one or two speculative picks a year is more than enough. The rookie list is the place for these type of players.

to much agreeing going here.
rather than get into another tooth pulling match on what role who should do i will concentrate solely on the last comment.

Of course it is. But if they all turn out to be no better than mediocre, how long are you going to let them clog up the list for? At least 2 years given all draftees get a minimum contract. I'd be more inclined to try and spread out the delistings over 2 or 3 years rather than loading up on late picks in one draft.

I think one or two speculative picks a year is more than enough. The rookie list is the place for these type of players.

with so many poor plyers who need to be turned over it does not matter atm if we take 5 duds late in the nd there are plenty to turn over. at least we would be going thru a process that can significantly improve our list if all goes well and if not we lose nothing.
everything is relative to where the list is at. ive always stated we are in early rebuild mode we will stay in this phase of list building until we significantly improve the list.

do well with your picks in the first three rounds pick up two or three core list players late nd and in the rookie draft poach the odd decent player in the psd and in 3 yrs time you have a side. we have enough duds to turn over atm to take the risk on lots of late picks.

 

[Disco08]

We have enough duds to take a couple of late picks each of the next 3 years, which is a much better strategy IMO. Otherwise if all the late picks from one year end up no good you just create the same problem down the track.

Even rebuilding, 5 ND picks a year is a good starting point. The only way I'd be inclined to take more is if you can trade players for picks within the first 3 or 4 rounds. West Coast in the middle of their rebuild put 5 new kids onto their list each year in 07 and 08. More than likely they'll do the same this year. They could have easily moved on a few extra players to pick late into either of those drafts had they wanted to.

 

[the claw]

We have enough duds to take a couple of late picks each of the next 3 years, which is a much better strategy IMO. Otherwise if all the late picks from one year end up no good you just create the same problem down the track.

Even rebuilding, 5 ND picks a year is a good starting point. The only way I'd be inclined to take more is if you can trade players for picks within the first 3 or 4 rounds. West Coast in the middle of their rebuild put 5 new kids onto their list each year in 07 and 08. More than likely they'll do the same this year. They could have easily moved on a few extra players to pick late into either of those drafts had they wanted to.
[/quot again it is all relevant to where your list is at at the time. we are on the same wave length just on the odd thing not tuned to the same channel.
as your list gets better the less late picks you need to use.

 

[Disco08]

West Coast's list was in tatters all of a sudden though. It was so bad that we've actually outplayed them over the last 3 years. They still didn't panic and take 10 kids in one draft just for the hell of it.

I'll be happy if Cameron and co just use the 7 picks we have now, use the PSD for a youngish recycled player and fill up the rookie list. Would that do you?

 

[Tigerbob]

West Coast's list was in tatters all of a sudden though. It was so bad that we've actually outplayed them over the last 3 years. They still didn't panic and take 10 kids in one draft just for the hell of it.

I'll be happy if Cameron and co just use the 7 picks we have now, use the PSD for a youngish recycled player and fill up the rookie list. Would that do you?

Yep, well said.

We are not playing AFL on EA Sports here. I think some have to remember that.

We will take 7 or 8 in the draft proper, a guy who fits in our policy in the PSD, so that will be a youngish type player and take a full compliment of rookies.

Essentially we could have 10 brand new players on the main list (Mitch Farmer, 8 National Draft selections, and PSD Pick).

Then more rookies.

Thats a very good turn over.

Hardwick will then mould a gameplan and then see who is fit for it and who is not and make more significant changes next year. I think there is already three or four that are gone next year and are either on the list because of contracts or it is known to be there last year.

So we will look forward to that next year. Again the promise is to utilise the National Draft, and unlike Wallace, we have a coach with integrity and a plan so we can expect more young kids.

I think by the time Hardwicks third year comes around we will have 22 to 24 new players on the list. All fitting in to the policy of young players.

I am willing to trust Hardwick and the club with this plan.

I do not know why some posters are looking back. Yep we learn from our mistakes and all that so never forget the past, but lets look forward and support the new regime.

3, 19, 35, 44, 51, 67, 72 and 83.

That's what we have to look forward to. Lets enjoy it.

 

[Rosy]

pppfffttt i have not seen one poster say he is losing faith with hardwick. for myself im impressed thus far.

Hooray a comment bordering on positive.  What, out of interest, about Hardwick has impressed you at this stage santa?  I'm not sure what he's done since his arrival and what list decisions he's been involved in.

I'm never sure which decisions are attributable to whom. If Terry was largely involved it's probably not right to lay the blame solely on CC, unless you actually know what his job description was of course. If Hardwick has a decent say things might be different and combined with CC we might get back on track. Ridiculous for people to call for his sacking at this stage.

 

[the claw]

West Coast's list was in tatters all of a sudden though. It was so bad that we've actually outplayed them over the last 3 years. They still didn't panic and take 10 kids in one draft just for the hell of it.

I'll be happy if Cameron and co just use the 7 picks we have now, use the PSD for a youngish recycled player and fill up the rookie list. Would that do you?

oh cmon disco wce and the rfc are chalk and cheese. wce list was not in tatters they won a gf in 06 and finished 3rd in 07.
they had a pretty good base to work from dont you think.do you really believe they had to have a clean out

in 06 the yr they won it they used 5 nd picks that would be normal for most clubs but a lot for a premiership team.they promoted 2 rookies so turned over 7.
in 07 they finished 3rd and copped lots of injury to important players but as a top 4 side they used 4 nd picks all inside the top 22 promoted 2 rookies and got kennedy in a trade. they turned over another 7 a lot for a top 4 side.
08 well it was abysmal in anyones language still only 5 nd picks.of course they werent going to panic the bulk of a premiership side was still there it just had a gaping hole in it what side wouldnt when you lose the calibur of judd and cuz in one unexpected go.but boy have they done everything they can to overcome this hole look at the picks they have used on mids since losing those players two yrs. masten ebert selwood shuey swift smith all inside pick 22 bar one at 36. throw in mcginnity in the psd and mcnamarra of the rookie list and they have not mucked around in an attempt to fix that hole..

to me they have always had a decent core to build on so they have had no need for massive cleanouts.again where the list is at is relevant. yet for a side that had success their player turn over was significant.

while strong they traded into picks to get a crack at the better kids. an example of this is 07 the yr judd cousins went. they ended up with picks 3 13 20 22 and josh kennedy. they traded away picks 30 and 35 for pick 22. .such early picks the yr they finished top 4. top 4 thats the base they build from us we build from bottom 2.

they had kerr cousins and judd as the engine room there was not a lot more there, some work horses but nothing elite. when judd and cousins went they just didnt have the engine room anymore but imo they had most other areas covered.
they didnt need a clean out and thus didnt have one.they had players in their system already coming thru.
go have a look at their 07 list and tell me how many were still their this yr. there would have to be at least 30 players and a good percentage of them would be premiership players.

a list in tatters i dont think so just very poorly performed with a gaping hole in the most critical part of any side an very young in critical areas. the structure was always there.




and ya know it never ceases to amaze me the comments from people stating wce were nothing more than an elite midfifield of two. unfortunately for them they had little depth in the midfield and when judd and cousins went the hole was gaping. but sheesh they had some good players around these two. kerr cox glass hunter all mugs i suppose. they had a superb defence

waters glass wirrapanda
braun hunter b jones

5 of that back 6 was there this yr but only glass and wirrapanda were regulars due to injury. they have had mackenzie and sphanger in their system for 3 or 4 yrs being groomed as replacements mitch brown is also there though has had serious injuries. again the structure has always been there.its called list management.
ya know if hansen played for us he would get a game week in week out ditto staker seaby yet at west coast these blokes are fringe players what does that say about their supposed lack of core list players.

structurally they will set up like this next yr. all these blokes apart from naitinui were taken 07 or before in the main while the club was still strong i dont think structurally they have never been in tatters as you say.

b / sphanger/jones glass/wilkes
hb/ mackenzie schofield
c/
hf/ kennedy/hansen m brown
f/ lynch/wilson notte
r/ cox
int/ naitanui

i look at it this way we are coming from a place similar to gc17 building from scratch. wce had a platform of premiership players to build from and plug holes in the list

as for what i would do not far of what you said. 7 or 8 nd picks 1 psd and the rest rookies with rookie promotions it allows for 9 or 10 delistings and with rookies 11 12 new faces. i dont think ive ever said much different. the thing is i think the list so bad i would be doing similar next yr as well and have said as much.
i think this draft very important and because of circumstances gc17 etc i would not be worried if we cut a little deeper. ive always been an advocate of giving a kid a go no matter where hes taken than hang onto a known dud quantity.

 

[the claw]

Hooray a comment bordering on positive. What, out of interest, about Hardwick has impressed you at this stage santa? I'm not sure what he's done since his arrival and what list decisions he's been involved in.

I'm never sure which decisions are attributable to whom. If Terry was largely involved it's probably not right to lay the blame solely on CC, unless you actually know what his job description was of course. If Hardwick has a decent say things might be different and combined with CC we might get back on track. Ridiculous for people to call for his sacking at this stage.

lets just say it seems there is a bit of honesty going on about where we are at.

some tough decisions have been made and there is no spin. he comes from a very good background he needs to be given the chance he can coach by everyone and everyone should expect errors he will get things wrong.
in some ways to me the coach who ever he was was not the answer the answer remains in the processes we go thru. it seems since hes been there we are going thru some correct processes. and yep cc should get credit for this so far for this off season as well. no one has called for his head well i dont think anyone has called for ccs head yet.
as stated before to me this thread has been primarily about what ccs efforts have been up to now. what happened in 08 was poor i dont care what anyone else says. i will keep an open mind and give him the chance to redeem himself but the role he plays at the club is critical he wont be given many chances and shouldnt be.

 

[the claw]

We are not playing AFL on EA Sports here. I think some have to remember that.

what the f. what a pompous statement what have you said thats any different to what ive been saying on this site for a long while now.
the only difference is i call a spade a spade and dont pussy foot about.

by the way you didnt answer my questions or are you that far up yourself you couldnt be bothered reading the post.
i at least do every poster the courtesy of reading their posts before i make assertions about them.

i will ask em again do you think just 2 18 yr olds in 08 was good enough do you think such a small turnover of players was right considering where the list was and is at.
oh and while your at it seeing as you are seemingly connected to the club and know everything who is ultimately responsible for these things.
if you want to look down your nose and treat posters like imbeciles fine two can play the game bud

 

[Smoking Aces]

what the f. what a pompous statement what have you said thats any different to what ive been saying on this site for a long while now.
the only difference is i call a spade a spade and dont pussy foot about.

by the way you didnt answer my questions or are you that far up yourself you couldnt be bothered reading the post.
i at least do every poster the courtesy of reading their posts before i make assertions about them.

i will ask em again do you think just 2 18 yr olds in 08 was good enough do you think such a small turnover of players was right considering where the list was and is at.
oh and while your at it seeing as you are seemingly connected to the club and know everything who is ultimately responsible for these things.
if you want to look down your nose and treat posters like imbeciles fine two can play the game bud

Claw these are our draft selections for 2008. All drafts have been included. You keep on banging about taking only 2 18 year olds however you are really splitting hairs when talking about a kids age whether they be 18 or 19.

Apart from Cousins we picked up 7 players who could be at the club for the next 10 years. Its too early to say whether they will make it but to call 2008 a complete write off in terms of recruitment then you are getting way too ahead of yourself. The 2008 draft period should be revisited in 3 years time but not now.

Type Round Pick Player Current Team Games Since Drafted * Age Drafted
National 1 8 Tyrone Vickery Richmond 9 18
National 2 26 Jayden Post Richmond 7 19
National 4 58 Tom Hislop Richmond 12 20
Pre-Season 1 6 Ben Cousins Richmond 15 30
Rookie 1 8 Robin Nahas Richmond 19 20
Rookie 2 24 David Gourdis Richmond 0 19
Rookie 3 39 Andrew Browne Richmond 1 18
Rookie 4 53 Alroy Gilligan Richmond 0 18

 

[shamekha]

i will keep an open mind and give him the chance to redeem himself but the role he plays at the club is critical he wont be given many chances and shouldnt be.

This will be pulled back up when the time comes!

in the mean time can you please get over yourself and just have a normal debate without getting all heated up when your argument is questioned. remember none of us sit on the board or in the coaches meetings. what you are saying is still only guess work and a concluding of your own thoughts.

Can you show me a copy of Cameron's Job Description? as it seems you have one.

 

[Scoop]

Claw these are our draft selections for 2008. All drafts have been included. You keep on banging about taking only 2 18 year olds however you are really splitting hairs when talking about a kids age whether they be 18 or 19.

Apart from Cousins we picked up 7 players who could be at the club for the next 10 years. Its too early to say whether they will make it but to call 2008 a complete write off in terms of recruitment then you are getting way too ahead of yourself. The 2008 draft period should be revisited in 3 years time but not now.

Type Round Pick Player Current Team Games Since Drafted * Age Drafted
National 1 8 Tyrone Vickery Richmond 9 18
National 2 26 Jayden Post Richmond 7 19
National 4 58 Tom Hislop Richmond 12 20
Pre-Season 1 6 Ben Cousins Richmond 15 30
Rookie 1 8 Robin Nahas Richmond 19 20
Rookie 2 24 David Gourdis Richmond 0 19
Rookie 3 39 Andrew Browne Richmond 1 18
Rookie 4 53 Alroy Gilligan Richmond 0 18

I agree with Claw on this, for this club to only take 2 players in the top 50 of the 2008 draft is a shocking move.Sure we introduced a new batch of rookies, (of which Gourdis was already on the main list, so he is not a new player to the club, so the figure is only 6) The only way to get better is through the draft. To hold on to so many iffy types for another year was a mistake. A lot of the work that is being done now by CC should have been done the year before. That is why our list is so far behind, we are chasing our tail. Clearly CC did not think things needed to be blown up in 2008 when most on PRE were spitting chips about the lack of movement on the list.

So far CC has done nothing outstanding nor made any really hard choices, in fact he has shirked away from it. For the club to considering holding onto Polak in capcity shows this. The Shane Tuck, Nathan Brown and Mark Coughlan potential trades were handled in a terrible manner, showed our hand far to early. CC has done nothing that makes me sit up and feel like we are dealing with a great football mind who can work the system over. Nothing terrible but certainly no guru.

 

[Rosy]

some tough decisions have been made and there is no spin.

How do you know who to credit with decisions and who to bag for them though santa? By some accounts a lot of the decisions were made prior to the new coach's arrival. What are some of the tough decisions you credit Hardwick for? I can't for the life of me work out how people apportion blame at our club, or know who is responsible for which decisions.

Edit- Happy for the support. It's often when people at the club are bagged for decisions that I wonder how the blame is apportioned, I doubt too many of us here would know who decides what at the club.

no one has called for his head

That was just a figure of speech but if you combine the fact he's contracted, and the title of this thread about him being on his last legs, I think his position at the club being at risk is pretty much being alluded to

 

[Disco08]

oh cmon disco wce and the rfc are chalk and cheese. wce list was not in tatters they won a gf in 06 and finished 3rd in 07.
they had a pretty good base to work from dont you think.do you really believe they had to have a clean out

Of course the West Coast list has always been better than the Tigers'. But there's no doubt they went into rebuilding mode after Judd and Cousins left. They could have easily decided to pick deep into either of the 07 or 08 drafts had they deemed it the best course of action. The fact that they didn't shows that they believe stretching the rebuild over 3 seasons to ensure spots are filled up with quality via earlier picks is a better option than taking a larger amount of kids at one time. IMO anyway. Players like Hansen, Staker, Nicoski, Butler, Seaby, Wilson, Jones, Davis, Graham and Armstrong are mediocre at best and could easily have been delisted during this time had West Coast wanted to pick late in any of these drafts.

As far as their list being in tatters, the results speak for themselves. Structurally they may have had the right pieces in place (I didn't say it was in tatters structurally) but their quality had dropped of significantly enough that they managed only 12 wins from 44 games over the next two years.

i look at it this way we are coming from a place similar to gc17 building from scratch. wce had a platform of premiership players to build from and plug holes in the list

A bit over the top I think. We've got some good young quality coming through in the midfield and at both ends key position wise. There's no depth obviously and it needs to be added to over the next 3 years but we're certainly not starting from scratch.

Other than that good to see we basically agree on what needs to happen from here.

 

[Disco08]

Clearly CC did not think things needed to be blown up in 2008 when most on PRE were spitting chips about the lack of movement on the list.

I can't see how we can determine Cameron's thoughts from the lack of movement last year. The direction the club was taking would have come from board level. The board would have heard from Wallace and Cameron where they though things were at. We all know what Wallace thought, and being the coach I can't see how the board wouldn't have done everything possible to try and support him. Cameron's task would have been to work towards these goals IMO.

for this club to only take 2 players in the top 50 of the 2008 draft is a shocking move

I think the difference between Hislop and an 18 year old is quite negligible and I'd be inclined to include him as a third junior added during the main draft. I do think it would have been better to keep the pick traded for Thomson but in the end trading pick 42 for a guy who was only 22 and added to an area we lacked in isn't really a disastrous move IMO. I also didn't/don't like the decision to pass at 70 but again it's not something that is likely to make or break future plans.

 

[Tigerbob]

what the f. what a pompous statement what have you said thats any different to what ive been saying on this site for a long while now.
the only difference is i call a spade a spade and dont pussy foot about.

by the way you didnt answer my questions or are you that far up yourself you couldnt be bothered reading the post.
i at least do every poster the courtesy of reading their posts before i make assertions about them.

i will ask em again do you think just 2 18 yr olds in 08 was good enough do you think such a small turnover of players was right considering where the list was and is at.
oh and while your at it seeing as you are seemingly connected to the club and know everything who is ultimately responsible for these things.
if you want to look down your nose and treat posters like imbeciles fine two can play the game bud

You want me to actually take you and your mate Barnzy's post seriously? :hihi

What you ramble on with, most already know. In the end it becomes an argument that goes around, and around and around in circles. All I have said is let it go, it ain't good for your health.

We took 3 selections in last years draft. You harp about taking two 18 year olds blah, blah, blah, and whilst I agree I would of liked more U19 kids, it has been explained to you, over and over and over again, the clubs mindset was different and the whole club had decided for whatever reason we were going for a finals appearance. You blame solely Cameron, while others lay the blame at a host of others. You disagree with it but should it be made into a massive *smile* fight like you are making it. Freo took a mature age player in the draft, so too did the Kangaroos. So if we had taken Thomson in the draft do we count that as 4 selections? Vickery, Post, Hislop and Thomson. All under 22 years of age. Or do we not count some selections from other clubs because they are not 18 year olds? What about the kids that are 19? Where does the argument stop?

I personally would of culled the list last season. The coach, the football department and the board decided that should not occur and that we were going for a finals appearance. The mindset of the club was different to mine. They proved to be wrong, but it happens. The club has now made an effort in making up for that wrong. They have sacked the coach and a host of assistants and hired a coach that is universally accepted by the Richmond members and have taken in a youth policy. The slate is clean. We now judge the club on this outcome. We tend to all be hero's after the fact.

About my comments about this not being a computer game. There are many factors to take into account than to just purely lay the blame at Craig Cameron like you and your panic merchant friend like to do. The inner workings of a football club is more complex and if you didn't know that then you should do some research before shooting your gob off about things you have little understanding of. It does not just happen that we can get rid of 18 players and draft 18 in the one year as much as we would have liked to. There are contracts, TPP, List management responsibilities, board directions, coaching philosophies and mindsets and a host of other factors. To make one decision at a football club it has to go through a host of channels before a decision is made. Imagine the decision of the direction of the playing list. You think Cameron was the one and only one that signed off on it?

Also your slanderous comments towards me in your post show how isolated and petty you truly are. Your old enough to know better. I will not stoop to that level. My connections at the club or any other club or what I know doesn't make me look down at anyone. My comments about the EA sports game was tongue and cheek. Yet I am unsurprised you took offense to them.

 

[the claw]

How do you know who to credit with decisions and who to bag for them though santa? By some accounts a lot of the decisions were made prior to the new coach's arrival. What are some of the tough decisions you credit Hardwick for? I can't for the life of me work out how people apportion blame at our club, or know who is responsible for which decisions.

well for 08 camerons jjob description was list and strategy manager .why the title if the buck doesnt stop with him.

 

[the claw]

I agree with Claw on this, for this club to only take 2 players in the top 50 of the 2008 draft is a shocking move.Sure we introduced a new batch of rookies, (of which Gourdis was already on the main list, so he is not a new player to the club, so the figure is only 6) The only way to get better is through the draft. To hold on to so many iffy types for another year was a mistake. A lot of the work that is being done now by CC should have been done the year before. That is why our list is so far behind, we are chasing our tail. Clearly CC did not think things needed to be blown up in 2008 when most on PRE were spitting chips about the lack of movement on the list.

So far CC has done nothing outstanding nor made any really hard choices, in fact he has shirked away from it. For the club to considering holding onto Polak in capcity shows this. The Shane Tuck, Nathan Brown and Mark Coughlan potential trades were handled in a terrible manner, showed our hand far to early. CC has done nothing that makes me sit up and feel like we are dealing with a great football mind who can work the system over. Nothing terrible but certainly no guru.

well said.

smoking aces rather than repeat in a different way you have your reply.

 

[Rosy]

well for 08 camerons jjob description was list and strategy manager .why the title if the buck doesnt stop with him.

I don't know and I doubt you do either. Still doesn't explain which tough decisions you credit to Hardwick. If they are list decisions why aren't they attributed to CC based on your comments above?