Welcome to Richmond - Jayden Short

[Sintiger]

The tracking stats support this. We were on par with Pies for distance covered and work rate of players and quite superior in sprint distance covered and repeat sprints. I don't really think desire has been a problem as a whole except for a distinct couple of obvious players.

Our distance covered is so high because we do so much chasing and trying valiantly to lock down space.
I don’t want to sound like I am critical of people who don’t go because I know there are lots of reasons why people don’t go to games but you don’t really see that workrate on TV because you don’t see the whole ground

 

[tigerlove]

Our distance covered is so high because we do so much chasing and trying valiantly to lock down space.
I don’t want to sound like I am critical of people who don’t go because I know there are lots of reasons why people don’t go to games but you don’t really see that workrate on TV because you don’t see the whole ground

Distance covered by players was the same as Pies, sprint distance was higher. And yes totally, as far as seeing things like workrate, you really have to be at the ground to see the reality.

My peeve is when someone blasts a player for a single situation for not chasing hard enough when that player has just busted their ass for the last two minutes and have nothing left in that moment. That's another that can look damning on TV but hasn't depicted the reality. Individual events should often be given the benefit of doubt, it's when you see repeating patterns over time that they should be called out.

 

[mrposhman]

It was frustrating because we had lots of opportunities to go quick and I noticed far too many times that we didn’t because there was risk. You could almost see the minds work, they hesitate and as soon as that happens the opportunity is gone.

A load of this is without doubt due to confidence. Losing wipes confidence out, and I'm sure the players can all hear the crowd noise when they stuff up. It tends to push players into their shells. Its why we have been trying like hell to avoid getting whacked every week despite the keyboard warriers / armchair critics trying hard to make us go nuclear. Thats what *smile* clubs do, as it completely wrecks confidence and ultimately impacts on a players ability to win games, ie. winning culture is important to have, likewise losing culture you don't want that around, its a cancer on a football club. We should know that from our own history, yet those same "supporters" who bag us out from all those years ago, seemingly want us to fly head first straight into the same scenario again.

As we all know, success at AFL level is largely between the ears, ruin that for young kids and its hard to get back.

 

[Tigerwa]

I don't care if there are plenty of others because I am allowed my opinion just as you are. I was posting about our players having a dip and they were. I could see it with my own eyes yesterday.

I was at the game, not sure if you were, but one big reason we had such a tackle discrepency is not about intent it is about ball movement. Our ball movement is clunky and time after time our players get caught and the ball movement is disrupted whereas we were not disrupting Collingwood's ball movement, they were consistently able to get the ball to the next player in an advantage and we weren't.

What I saw were players working incredibly hard chasing but not getting to tackle because their ball movement and teamwork was much better than ours. We also have a lot of young bodies and their tackles get broken more than seasoned veterans. Looking at tackling stats without looking at why is too simplistic imo.

I look at yesterday's game and it was just another example of a general theme. We get plenty of the ball, we have plenty of opportunities but we just aren't good enough at the moment. I was thinking after the game about scoring opportunities so I had a look at the stats and sure enough we had more inside 50s and we had 29 shots on goal to 26 and we kicked 9 goals to their 14, we had multiple OOF. This is the thing to me, we get opportunities and we can't take them because our ball movement and skill level is poor at the moment. If we lacked intent and effort we wouldn't be getting the opportunities.

Yeah yeah yeah so many excuses.

To keep it simple and short just like you im entitled to my opinion. My opinion roundly backed up by the stats, that was a horrible tackling performance and to say otherwise is head in the sand stuff.

Ooze is really laying down the law allowing blokes like Short to play the way he does.

Without a doubt we are the worst tackling team in the comp and that is by some margin but hey you see it with your own eyes after all your at all the games. May i suggest you need an optomotrist.

Even when things smash people in the face they still deny what their eyes are seeing.

 

[Sintiger]

Yeah yeah yeah so many excuses.

To keep it simple and short just like you im entitled to my opinion. My opinion roundly backed up by the stats, that was a horrible tackling performance and to say otherwise is head in the sand stuff.

Ooze is really laying down the law allowing blokes like Short to play the way he does.

Without a doubt we are the worst tackling team in the comp and that is by some margin but hey you see it with your own eyes after all your at all the games. May i suggest you need an optomotrist.

Even when things smash people in the face they still deny what their eyes are seeing.

Yeah yeah mock another opinion that’s not yours.

lol

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Dow?

Bloody hell, we’d need to give them a Rd 1 draft pick to convince them to take Short and Dow.

 

[Leysy Days]

Our distance covered is so high because we do so much chasing and trying valiantly to lock down space.
I don’t want to sound like I am critical of people who don’t go because I know there are lots of reasons why people don’t go to games but you don’t really see that workrate on TV because you don’t see the whole ground

Yeah agree - it's not so much workrate or effort - more that we just so slow. Especially through the midfield.

Our chronic lack of leg speed means opposition spice through us end to end very easily.

We need a huge injection of pace and agility come end of season.

 

[Redford]

Yeah agree - it's not so much workrate or effort - more that we just so slow. Especially through the midfield.

Our chronic lack of leg speed means opposition spice through us end to end very easily.

We need a huge injection of pace and agility come end of season.

Nah. Only half agree with that. Whilst being treacle slow is a big reason for a lot of our issues, our work rate absolutely has dropped off. And whilst I go to every game, you don't need to in order to see that this is the case. It's patently obvious. I think Yze himself raised it in one of his pressers a couple of months ago.

A few weeks ago FC highlighted that we had a low pressure rating. About the same time, Daniel Hoyne from CD said we were 2nd last in the AFL. I think he said Norf were the only ones worse. We may have improved since then, dunno. But absolutely no way on heavens earth are we working as hard as we could be - not in terms of pressure at least.

Last for tackles in the AFL. 11th for Pressure Acts. 2nd last for Tackles I50.

We've got massive scope for improvement where workrate/effort is concerned as it relates to pressure.

 

[Tiggy Train]

Yeah agree - it's not so much workrate or effort - more that we just so slow. Especially through the midfield.

Our chronic lack of leg speed means opposition spice through us end to end very easily.

We need a huge injection of pace and agility come end of season.

yep you nailed it with us being slow. Can't apply any pressure or tackling if you're chasing most of the time.

 

[Redford]

Can't apply any pressure or tackling if you're chasing most of the time.

Yeah, you actually can still apply pressure because pressure is not just a measure of tackling, it's also a measurement of corralling, physical contact beyond tackling eg bumping, closing and implied pressure. When Champion Data rate pressure, they consider all these things alongside tackling. So that sort of dilutes the chasing part of things where assessing overall pressure is concerned.

Also, in situations like stoppages or plays involving the ball in the air (e.g. kick ins, kicks from held up marks etc.) you're not really chasing and needing leg speed as much as you are committing to an act when the ball or play is a bit stationary. We are *smile* at it right now.

As an extension of that, and the lack of pressure we apply based on all of the aforementioned criteria that makes up "pressure", it should be no surprise that we are dead set last for stoppage clearances in the AFL.

 

[Sintiger]

Nah. Only half agree with that. Whilst being treacle slow is a big reason for a lot of our issues, our work rate absolutely has dropped off. And whilst I go to every game, you don't need to in order to see that this is the case. It's patently obvious. I think Yze himself raised it in one of his pressers a couple of months ago.

A few weeks ago FC highlighted that we had a low pressure rating. About the same time, Daniel Hoyne from CD said we were 2nd last in the AFL. I think he said Norf were the only ones worse. We may have improved since then, dunno. But absolutely no way on heavens earth are we working as hard as we could be - not in terms of pressure at least.

Last for tackles in the AFL. 11th for Pressure Acts. 2nd last for Tackles I50.

We've got massive scope for improvement where workrate/effort is concerned as it relates to pressure.

Running and chasing are much lower rated pressure acts in the calculation of the total than tackling and corralling. The first group is what we are doing a lot of, the 2nd group is what is being done a lot to us.

 

[DavidSSS]

Distance covered by players was the same as Pies, sprint distance was higher. And yes totally, as far as seeing things like workrate, you really have to be at the ground to see the reality.

My peeve is when someone blasts a player for a single situation for not chasing hard enough when that player has just busted their ass for the last two minutes and have nothing left in that moment. That's another that can look damning on TV but hasn't depicted the reality. Individual events should often be given the benefit of doubt, it's when you see repeating patterns over time that they should be called out.

The other aspect is that TV flattens the perspective. On TV it can look like a player is lazy by not chasing, while at the ground you can see the player is a long way behind their opponent and would have no chance to tackle before they dispose of the ball - ie: a waste of effort.

I reckon the point made above by Sintiger is correct, our ball movement is not good and the opposition ball movement is miles ahead of ours. We need to improve the ability to stop the opposition ball movement as you can't tackle a player who is 10m away from you. Clearly there is need for improvement but I do go to a lot of games and I see the players working hard. There is a lot of criticism of players just guarding space too - guess what, guarding space is how you stop the opposition moving the ball to players who are in space.

To criticise our players for not tackling when the opposition has moved the ball into space and we have no players near enough, and to criticise our players for guarding space when that is how you stop the opposition from moving the ball into space, just shows ignorance about how the game is played these days.

As for Short (remember him, this is the thread about Short), the issue I have is that he gets the ball and blasts it forward without enough consideration of where he is kicking the ball. Yes, the dump kick out of defence can be the only option and having a long kick is good for that. But too often he has time to do more than a dump kick but still just kicks it down the line to a contest and it all too often comes straight back.

DS

 

[Redford]

Running and chasing are much lower rated pressure acts in the calculation of the total than tackling and corralling. The first group is what we are doing a lot of, the 2nd group is what is being done a lot to us.

That's not exactly right. Corralling is only worth 1.2 points. Physical pressure acts (e.g. tackling) are worth 3.75 points, closing acts are worth 2.25 points, chasing acts are 1.5 points.

Where that "second group" of tackling and corralling is concerned, it's not about what is being done to us. It's about what we are not doing ourselves. A team's pressure rating is measured by what it does itself, not by what the other team is doing ?

The elements of what makes up pressure are an attitude and intent. They are not skills nor things that require a certain physical make up. If what FC and and CD are saying is correct (which I would suggest is correct when you look at our stats) then we simply aren't applying enough pressure due to a lack of attitude and intent.

You can make up excuses for that, or believe what you think your eyes are seeing, but the data and what supports it, is telling a different story from my perspective.

 

[Tiggy Train]

Yeah, you actually can still apply pressure because pressure is not just a measure of tackling, it's also a measurement of corralling, physical contact beyond tackling eg bumping, closing and implied pressure. When Champion Data rate pressure, they consider all these things alongside tackling. So that sort of dilutes the chasing part of things where assessing overall pressure is concerned.

Also, in situations like stoppages or plays involving the ball in the air (e.g. kick ins, kicks from held up marks etc.) you're not really chasing and needing leg speed as much as you are committing to an act when the ball or play is a bit stationary. We are *smile* at it right now.

As an extension of that, and the lack of pressure we apply based on all of the aforementioned criteria that makes up "pressure", it should be no surprise that we are dead set last for stoppage clearances in the AFL.

You need to be close enough. Have you seen our defensive stats recently? What you’re saying is excellent in theory, but if you’re not near the opponent or too weak to apply pressure or tackle then you’re in no man’s land.

 

[tigerlove]

Pressure act were the same against Pies 268/268. Alot of focus on just the tackle portion of PA tack and yes our tackle counts have been quite low and need improvement but it's been like that for most games this season, we are clear last for tackles per game so you have to question whether it's because of the game plan rather than desire and intent. I can't believe for most games this year it has been lack of intent.

 

[Redford]

The other aspect is that TV flattens the perspective. On TV it can look like a player is lazy by not chasing, while at the ground you can see the player is a long way behind their opponent and would have no chance to tackle before they dispose of the ball - ie: a waste of effort.

I reckon the point made above by Sintiger is correct, our ball movement is not good and the opposition ball movement is miles ahead of ours. We need to improve the ability to stop the opposition ball movement as you can't tackle a player who is 10m away from you. Clearly there is need for improvement but I do go to a lot of games and I see the players working hard. There is a lot of criticism of players just guarding space too - guess what, guarding space is how you stop the opposition moving the ball to players who are in space.

To criticise our players for not tackling when the opposition has moved the ball into space and we have no players near enough, and to criticise our players for guarding space when that is how you stop the opposition from moving the ball into space, just shows ignorance about how the game is played these days.

As for Short (remember him, this is the thread about Short), the issue I have is that he gets the ball and blasts it forward without enough consideration of where he is kicking the ball. Yes, the dump kick out of defence can be the only option and having a long kick is good for that. But too often he has time to do more than a dump kick but still just kicks it down the line to a contest and it all too often comes straight back.

DS

Not much of that makes any sense to me. Our ball movement has nothing to do with pressure when we don't have the ball. They're two totally different ends of the game.

Where guarding space is concerned that's not something I've brought up personally so not sure who you're referring to there, but anyway if the opposition is moving the ball into space because we " have no players near enough" isn't that an admission of failure in itself ???

 

[Sintiger]

That's not exactly right. Corralling is only worth 1.2 points. Physical pressure acts (e.g. tackling) are worth 3.75 points, closing acts are worth 2.25 points, chasing acts are 1.5 points.

Where that "second group" of tackling and corralling is concerned, it's not about what is being done to us. It's about what we are not doing ourselves. A team's pressure rating is measured by what it does itself, not by what the other team is doing ?

The elements of what makes up pressure are an attitude and intent. They are not skills nor things that require a certain physical make up. If what FC and and CD are saying is correct (which I would suggest is correct when you look at our stats) then we simply aren't applying enough pressure due to a lack of attitude and intent.

You can make up excuses for that, or believe what you think your eyes are seeing, but the data and what supports it, is telling a different story from my perspective.

I got corralling and closing acts mixed up in my post. Sorry for the confusion.
We do a lot of chasing in particular, which is shown by the metres covered stats. We corral, more than I would like but we do.

 

[Redford]

I got corralling and closing acts mixed up in my post. Sorry for the confusion.
We do a lot of chasing in particular, which is shown by the metres covered stats. We corral, more than I would like but we do.

No problem. Anyway, this is the Short thread. I think we can all agree that pressure, intent, call it what you will is but just one of many areas for review where our performances are concerned. I'm certainly not saying it's the be all and end all. Injuries, skill and talent levels, experience etc etc all equally impactful.

 

[DavidSSS]

Not much of that makes any sense to me. Our ball movement has nothing to do with pressure when we don't have the ball. They're two totally different ends of the game.

Where guarding space is concerned that's not something I've brought up personally so not sure who you're referring to there, but anyway if the opposition is moving the ball into space because we " have no players near enough" isn't that an admission of failure in itself ???

Hmm, not sure why you are responding here but whatevs. The point is that our ball movement is such that we can't find space, which makes it easier for the opposition to pressure our players. The contrast is that the opposition find space so we can't pressure them. It isn't just a case of being willing to pressure the opposition, if their ball movement is good enough, and our guarding of space is bad enough, they get the ball where we can't apply pressure. Yes, it is a failure, we need to guard space better, but I never said otherwise.

DS

 

[Dyer'ere]

Short was kicking shorter on the weekend. Good coaching. Well played. Better use from Jayden. Definitely looking.