Thoroughbred racing

[jb03]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Before your head hits the pillow mate, the other horse was Brew in 2000. Ran 10th (I said 5th ooops) in 1999 and the won the next year carrying 49.5.

I think it broke your other rule by winning on the Saturday to qualify too i think Arch.

Funnry about the 92 CP, in the last dozen posts we have had 5 or so certainties beaten! Great race.

To refresh memories. Some of the other names not even mentioned were great horses too - Sydeston, Rough Habit, Slight Chance etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yewKoFzCfDk

 

[Leysy Days]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Great great race that.

Leysy was a young impressionable 16 y.o wannabe punter trying to get involved on the punt. Received his first ever tip. Get on Coronation Day leysy's uncle said the word was from Melbourne. Dont think it could win a maiden after that. ;D

BTW how many weeks would Greg Hall on Super get for overuse of the whip now. :hihi

 

[Leysy Days]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

You nailed this a coupla weeks ago, Bryza. Well played. Hope you have many of their dollars. I ended up taking your tip as the only other winning chance along with the plodder I backed. You are in great nick, mate.


The race. Glenn Boss rode the best horse to win. He was too good, so was his horse. Massacre IMO.

I know Gai and Singo are mates but her callous treatment of his horse's chances could not soon be forgotten. However even if she'd sat on the leader's back I don't think MJ could have run a drum.

All Too Hard's run reminded me of Grosvenor. I think the winner is very smart. The decisive WFA champion of the nation. The first two put up a margin on the established formline - Shoot Out. He's a B grader and a very good one. But ATH and OP are, after covering ground, five lengths better than him getting rails runs.

Ethiopia. Great run. Rhys MacLeod did everything right for the forst 600 or so. Only a bush would have had the nuts to put that field to the sword in the first 400. And that's what he did. He boldly ruined the planning of every genius involved in the race. But it was arrogant, even deluded, to come off the rail when he did. The pace was hot - you cuddle your horse. Ethiopia was clearly the third best horse in that race but he didn't run third because he was set too big a task by the rider. In his defence, I don't think any of us foresaw just how much better than the rest of them the first two across the line would prove to be.

BTW how good was Southern Speed's run? If you thought she could get two mile you'd have to figure her in the MC trifectas. Very under rated mare, probably the best in the country on her day and under the circumstances that suit her.

That was a hot run Cox Plate, not a stroll in the park where a trackworker outsprints them. All Too Hard was awesome. Destroyed the field by four lengths. Ocean Park outclassed him. Best Cox Plate win since Saintly IMO. Historic Cox Plate.

Cheers old fox.

Love horses that can sprint but are also tough. Its a rare combination.

& Ocean Park was perhaps the only one in the race that can genuinely ping when let go. As he showed. @ the Valley that quality is crucial.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Tawriffic finished down the track in Empire Rose's Cup before winning the next year.

There's a long list from the 1950's and further back - Macdougal, Delta, Comic Court (twice), Rimfire, Russia, Dark Felt, Old Rowley, Marabou, Statesman, Spearfelt (twice), Backwood, Westcourt, The Grafter, Tarcoola, Carbine, Bravo (twice), The Pearl, Nimblefoot (twice), Glencoe, Tim Whiffler, Toryboy (twice).

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Re Super Impose - a very good horse, and on his day a great horse, but was beaten too many times at short odds to be one of my favs.

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

I think it broke your other rule by winning on the Saturday to qualify too i think Arch.

Funnry about the 92 CP, in the last dozen posts we have had 5 or so certainties beaten! Great race.

To refresh memories. Some of the other names not even mentioned were great horses too - Sydeston, Rough Habit, Slight Chance etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yewKoFzCfDk

Yes it did JB, from memory, that rule runs at about 70%, the age rule about the same and the first time rule about 97% in the modern era ( I'm not talking in the early days as racing has changed so much). Apply the three rules this year and hopefully it works.

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Re Super Impose - a very good horse, and on his day a great horse, but was beaten too many times at short odds to be one of my favs.

Not many horses Leysy have won over 1200m and then run 2nd and 4th (with 60.5) in the cup. On top of that a CP, back to back Epsom & Doncaster double just to name a few. Most people tell me he was a better in handicaps but my view is he was always carrying top weight and giving all the weight away, not to mention he won at WFA and beat one of the best fields ever in it. Best horse I've seen, I've watched his wins in the Epsoms and Doncasters 100's of times and still can't believe he wins them.

 

[Rosy]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

On Gai Waterhouse, I think she is the most over-rated horse trainer ever, wins group races in Sydney against second rate fields but can't pick her nose in Melbourne against the best, the weekend proved it.

Gai is probably heading towards 200 wins for the year. Those who stick by her would be doing ok. Don't think the weekend proved much really. More Joyous isn't the best in Melbourne but is still a group 1 winner there. 3yos don't have a good record in the CP (since 1970, 124 x 3YO's have contested the W S Cox Plate with just 7 (5.6%) winning and a further 19 running 2nd or 3rd) but Gai still placed one this year. She's had several G1 winners in Melbourne.

I find Gai's honesty, effervescence and openess refreshing in a testosterone charged industry. Not sure her trophy cabinet would indicate she's the most over-rated trainer ever. I think she's doing/done very well as a trainer. Admittedly she has Nash to make her record look good. :hihi

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Not many horses Leysy have won over 1200m and then run 2nd and 4th (with 60.5) in the cup. On top of that a CP, back to back Epsom & Doncaster double just to name a few. Most people tell me he was a better in handicaps but my view is he was always carrying top weight and giving all the weight away, not to mention he won at WFA and beat one of the best fields ever in it. Best horse I've seen, I've watched his wins in the Epsoms and Doncasters 100's of times and still can't believe he wins them.

I know some will find it sacrilegious to not have Super on the top rung, but a lot of people who should know better anoint him with the "greatest miler ever" tag by default. The "double double" was phenomenal and the standout achievement of his career, but otherwise his record over the mile doesn't read so well.

12th 3yo Hcp
4th Open Hcp
2nd Welter Hcp
3rd Craiglee Stks
2nd Open Hcp
2nd Blamey Stks
Won Doncaster Hcp
2nd Chelmsford Stks
2nd George Main Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
Won Chipping Norton Stks
Won Doncaster Hcp
2nd All Aged Stks
6th Chelmsford Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
Won Chipping Norton Stks
6th Doncaster Hcp
3rd Chelmsford Stks
4th Epsom Hcp

19-6-6-2

I'm being kind to Super here and omitting a couple of 1700m defeats at Geelong.

Obviously I never saw Chatham race, but his record over the mile, including a Doncaster under 65.5kg, puts Super's in the shade:

9th Caulfield Guineas
Won Linlithgow Stks
2nd Blamey Stks
unp Doncaster Hcp
Won 3yo Hcp
5th All Aged Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
4th Emirates Stks
Won Linlithgow Stks
2nd Orr Stks
3rd Blamey Stks
Won Warwick Stks
Won Hill Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
Won Linlithgow Stks
Won Doncaster Hcp
Won All Aged Stks
Won Warwick Stks
Won Hill Stks
unp Epsom Hcp

20-12-2-1

Super wins on versatility, though he never won a feature race at 1200 like Chatham. Throw in Chatham's Cox Plate record - 2 wins, a 2nd to Phar Lap & 4th to Rogilla (Caulfield/Melbourne/Sydney Cup & multiple WFA wins) - and he's the superhorse, with Super Impose a pretender to the throne.

No doubt Super was a tough old bastard and was always charging home, no matter how hard they went up front, but IMO he lacked the set of gears that the great WFA horses come with. Reckon Freedman's enthusiastic spruiking of the horse right from the early days aided his popularity. In conclusion, Super was Lenny Hayes to Chatham's Judd.

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Gai is probably heading towards 200 wins for the year. Those who stick by her would be doing ok. Don't think the weekend proved much really. More Joyous isn't the best in Melbourne but is still a group 1 winner there. 3yos don't have a good record in the CP (since 1970, 124 x 3YO's have contested the W S Cox Plate with just 7 (5.6%) winning and a further 19 running 2nd or 3rd) but Gai still placed one this year. She's had several G1 winners in Melbourne.

I find Gai's honesty, effervescence and openess refreshing in a testosterone charged industry. Not sure her trophy cabinet would indicate she's the most over-rated trainer ever. I think she's doing/done very well as a trainer. Admittedly she has Nash to make her record look good. :hihi

Gai's record is very hard to fault Rosy and she has done extremely well for herself, I dont want it to sound like a tall poppy thing. My feeling is she is not in the class of a Cummings, Hayes, Freedman or any other trainer that is up the top. She has virtually won nothing in melbourne and when the heat is on, she has a bad habit of making bad decisions hence why I mentioned the weekend and her complete brain fade selecting barrier 11, no one else in the industry wouldve selected that gate. If you take her Sydney record out of it, its not good reading. Whats the best horse she has ever had??

On another note with Gai's set up, its got me stuffed how a leading trainer can be married to a known race fixer and bookmaker with a bad record, then her son starts his own bookmaking firm. There might be absolutely nothing in it but I wonder what they talk about around the dinner table. She might be great for racing and the racing fraternity owes her family and her father more than what they owe it but I'm not a big fan and will never back a horse of hers in a big race in Melbourne.

I know some will find it sacrilegious to not have Super on the top rung, but a lot of people who should know better anoint him with the "greatest miler ever" tag by default. The "double double" was phenomenal and the standout achievement of his career, but otherwise his record over the mile doesn't read so well.

12th 3yo Hcp
4th Open Hcp
2nd Welter Hcp
3rd Craiglee Stks
2nd Open Hcp
2nd Blamey Stks
Won Doncaster Hcp
2nd Chelmsford Stks
2nd George Main Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
Won Chipping Norton Stks
Won Doncaster Hcp
2nd All Aged Stks
6th Chelmsford Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
Won Chipping Norton Stks
6th Doncaster Hcp
3rd Chelmsford Stks
4th Epsom Hcp

19-6-6-2

I'm being kind to Super here and omitting a couple of 1700m defeats at Geelong.

Obviously I never saw Chatham race, but his record over the mile, including a Doncaster under 65.5kg, puts Super's in the shade:

9th Caulfield Guineas
Won Linlithgow Stks
2nd Blamey Stks
unp Doncaster Hcp
Won 3yo Hcp
5th All Aged Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
4th Emirates Stks
Won Linlithgow Stks
2nd Orr Stks
3rd Blamey Stks
Won Warwick Stks
Won Hill Stks
Won Epsom Hcp
Won Linlithgow Stks
Won Doncaster Hcp
Won All Aged Stks
Won Warwick Stks
Won Hill Stks
unp Epsom Hcp

20-12-2-1

Super wins on versatility, though he never won a feature race at 1200 like Chatham. Throw in Chatham's Cox Plate record - 2 wins, a 2nd to Phar Lap & 4th to Rogilla (Caulfield/Melbourne/Sydney Cup & multiple WFA wins) - and he's the superhorse, with Super Impose a pretender to the throne.

No doubt Super was a tough old bastard and was always charging home, no matter how hard they went up front, but IMO he lacked the set of gears that the great WFA horses come with. Reckon Freedman's enthusiastic spruiking of the horse right from the early days aided his popularity. In conclusion, Super was Lenny Hayes to Chatham's Judd.

Geeez, im taking on the heavey hitters here with Leysy and LTRTR with this discussion...... :hihi

Lets scrap the first of Super's runs at 1600 as we know 3 year olds can be flighty, not a bad record there after with 18 starts and the worse finish was 6th with 14 out of 18 in the placings. Added to that is Im guessing he wouldve been top weight or close to it in most of them. Personally I dont like comparing horses from different era's, its like comparing footballers as everything changes so much but please dont get me started with that conversation. I am the first to admit Im biased as I love Super, if I could marry a horse, he would be it.......

He won me a bucket load when I first got into the punt as a teenager I thought I would be retired at 20 so hence I have my blinkers on but Im sure we all do with things like this.

 

[Leysy Days]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

On Gai,

Leysy's view is not so much that she is not up to Melb its more the way she trains her horses.

They are so wound up from the hard training she gives them before they even resume, that there's not much in the tank to improve on. By the time the end of the carnival comes round down here a lot of her horses are already cooked for the campaign. To a lesser degree Moody is the same. Compare that to someone like Kavanagh or Bart who deliberately have them peak later on in the campaign for the target race.

Archy, think you've got leysy pegged wrong here, haven't got into the Super debate. ;D

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

On Gai,

Leysy's view is not so much that she is not up to Melb its more the way she trains her horses.

They are so wound up from the hard training she gives them before they even resume, that there's not much in the tank to improve on. By the time the end of the carnival comes round down here a lot of her horses are already cooked for the campaign. To a lesser degree Moody is the same. Compare that to someone like Kavanagh or Bart who deliberately have them peak later on in the campaign for the target race.

Archy, think you've got leysy pegged wrong here, haven't got into the Super debate. ;D

Now I am ducking for cover if you do....... :hihi

I love a good horse racing chat / debate, especially over a few beers.

Possibly so Leysy but if that is the case, thats like Hardwick setting the Tigers to win the pre season comp and not giving a stuff about round 1 and onwards, he would last 1 season tops. The only way I would keep a horse with her if that was the case is if I was a big punter and just wanted to load up on its first start of the campaign at big odds and who gives a stuff after that, I cant see John Singleton being that kind of owner. For me she is just all sizzle and not much sausage.

Correct me if im wrong but her stable is not a big betting stable I dont think.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Geeez, im taking on the heavey hitters here with Leysy and LTRTR with this discussion...... :hihi

Lets scrap the first of Super's runs at 1600 as we know 3 year olds can be flighty, not a bad record there after with 18 starts and the worse finish was 6th with 14 out of 18 in the placings. Added to that is Im guessing he wouldve been top weight or close to it in most of them. Personally I dont like comparing horses from different era's, its like comparing footballers as everything changes so much but please dont get me started with that conversation. I am the first to admit Im biased as I love Super, if I could marry a horse, he would be it.......

He won me a bucket load when I first got into the punt as a teenager I thought I would be retired at 20 so hence I have my blinkers on but Im sure we all do with things like this.

We all have our biases, usually dictated by the hip pocket, but it's not as though Super burnt me. Can only remember backing him once. (I wasn't much older than you at the time; the punt was paying far better than my humble bank salary, and making a living as a punter seemed within reach... A 5yo Super Impose was coming off a WFA placing in the Craiglee behing Apollo Run, and was odds-on fav in a very modest mile handicap at Sandown. Declined to have a bet myself, but since I'd done the form, I tipped a mate into Painted Ocean - a mediocre welter horse - and such was the zone I was in, I watched without the slightest hint of regret as it prevailed at 6/1. Super was damaged goods for me from then on!)

Just on Chatham...his Doncaster win with 65.5kg was achieved on a heavy track after missing the start by six lengths. And he was an on-pacer, not previously noted for coming from behind. Also won his second Epsom with 61.5kg. Racing's seen some changes, but fundamentally it's still horse against horse, weight against weight...

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

No doubting Chatham was a great horse but I never saw it race, it might have got lost in the conversation but Super Impose was best horse I have seen, there have been a lot of great champs but I dont think I can remember a horse that has been able to do / win what he has. And, YES, The hip pocket is doing a fair bit of talking at the moment, Makybe Diva comes close.

Good trivia question, What was Makybe Diva's first ever cup win?? I was there and had a decent go at 3-1 from memory.

I also sent a good mate whom is a part time pro punter with some decent connections a text earlier asking "is the Waterhouse stable a big punting stable?" and he replied "They are if Robbie gives the nod"....... :hihi

 

[Rosy]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Gai's record is very hard to fault Rosy and she has done extremely well for herself, I dont want it to sound like a tall poppy thing. My feeling is she is not in the class of a Cummings, Hayes, Freedman or any other trainer that is up the top.

Yep but you reckon Gai is over-rated. I'm not sure anyone would rate her above Cummings, Hayes or Freeman. She's still an extremely successful trainer though.

 

[Tigion]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Derby Day Hvasstan get on it the Gelagotis boys and Glen Boss have it covered the feisty little bugger is going to bring it home for Mick :clap

so excited for the boys and family

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Yep but you reckon Gai is over-rated. I'm not sure anyone would rate her above Cummings, Hayes or Freeman. She's still an extremely successful trainer though.

I say she is over rated bacause most people talk about her that she is a top class trainer in the same bracket as Cummings, Hayes and the like but she has won nothing compered to their record. No Melbourne Cups to her name, No Cox Plates to her name, 1 Caulfield Cup to her name.

I havent really followed racing in the last 10 years like I used to but some of the people I know still heavily involved wont back her horses as they dont trust her knowledge or judgement, most still believe that its Hubby pulling the strings.

She is a successful trainer no doubt but not as good as most people believe, right or wrong, thats my thoughts and what Ive heard.

 

[jb03]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Good trivia question, What was Makybe Diva's first ever cup win?? I was there and had a decent go at 3-1 from memory.

:hihi

Might have been the Queen Elizabeth Cup or something like that, the year before it won its first Melboure Cup perhaps?

 

[ARCHYBOY]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Might have been the Queen Elizabeth Cup or something like that, the year before it won its first Melboure Cup perhaps?

Close JB, it was the start before that and it was a country cup.

 

[Tiger44]

Re: Thoroughbred Horse Racing [Merged]

Werribee Cup when trained by D Hall, then won the Queen Elizabeth on last day of carnival, I think.