The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)

[GoodOne]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

How much trade value have RFC players had in the past Goodies?

I hope that you're not hanging your hat on that.

Well if we don't compete in this area it will put as even further behind other clubs who have the capacity and skill to trade for draft picks. So yes I am hanging my hat on some smart trading, we cant afford to go through the whole period of the next 4 or 5 years with no high draft picks.

There is no way GC would hold onto all their draft picks by the way. The whole purpose of this was to make them competitive very early on and the emphasis will be on trading some of their high picks for quality players.

 

[Backbone]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Are there any other professional sports in the world where you are encouraged to lose games? AFL has to do something about this mentality, its not normal.

A good question GoodOne ... here's some interesting stuff on Wikipedia about that particular issue ... I didn't realise that this sort of issue was so prevalent. Although the topic is about match fixing, there is some discussion on tanking as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing

 

[mad_tiggy911]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

are those same proponents the ones who defended and continue to defend the bowdens browns simmonds pettifers whites and richos of this world they wouldnt know development if they fell over it.

you want to know why development is so bad at the rabble footy club. they keep on picking blokes who have deficiencies that cant be fixed. they struggle to get early picks right yet alone all other types of picks.yet people want to forego the earliest possible picks we can get our hands on.

rfc ferals being rfc ferals its never the players the list is fine its always something else other than we are crap.

there is only one way to build the list its called the nd weather ferals like it or not we have no choice but to participate.i would rather participate whole heartedly and get it wrong than do what we currently do.

people talk about our golden era. well lets get one thing clear we were a power back then because the club was the best operater in the vfl at getting the right cattle to the club. we would push the boundaries of ethics and even go past those boundaries to get the cattle that we needed.

1986 and its a new system we now have, every club in the comp bar the rfc and ffc have totally embraced the nd and they push the boundaries of ethics if you like. they do what is needed to get and keep the right cattle.

over the last 5 to 10 yrs all clubs bar probably two have realised more and more the importance of early picks its got to the point where nearly all clubs rfc excluded will not give up their first round picks and most certainly top 10 picks for players unless they are exceptional footballers.

we are light yrs away the loss of all those old buggers probably means we will be worse next yr yep it will get worse before it gets better yet people want to forego pps and as many early picks as we can get for a few meaningless wins against fellow strugglers.
meaningless wins just last yr have already cost us watts 1pp rich 3 picks around 19 35 51 67. meaningless wins means we will miss out again on what should have been 1 pp pick 3 or 4 at the start of the first round and a pick around 19.

if the club just bit the bullet the last 3 yrs should have yielded 2007 cotchin 2. rance 18, selwood 19. 2008 watts 1 rich 3 pick 19.
2009 pick 1 pick 3 pick 19,
since wallace has been there and before he came i have screamed out for proper clean outs earluy draft picks a playing of the kids and the tank.under the draft system we have the end justifys the means,

the run home stkilda if they play close to their best we will get a hiding. adelaide another loss. carlton loss. nm 50/50. ess 50/50 melb50/50. syd loss collingwood loss hawthorn loss wce 50/50.

so at seasons end even if we win all 50/50s and we jag one other our wins should go something like this. nm 2. fr 1. me 1. wce 2 jag 1. thats 7 wins and against what why not tank what is there to be gained beating these teams nothing. we had better hurry up and learn how to manipulate the system we are forced to operate under because another decade of exactly the same sh!t will see us in melb and nm shoes.

One of the most insightful posts I have ever read on here.

 

[Harry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

are those same proponents the ones who defended and continue to defend the bowdens browns simmonds pettifers whites and richos of this world they wouldnt know development if they fell over it.

you want to know why development is so bad at the rabble footy club. they keep on picking blokes who have deficiencies that cant be fixed. they struggle to get early picks right yet alone all other types of picks.yet people want to forego the earliest possible picks we can get our hands on.

rfc ferals being rfc ferals its never the players the list is fine its always something else other than we are crap.

there is only one way to build the list its called the nd weather ferals like it or not we have no choice but to participate.i would rather participate whole heartedly and get it wrong than do what we currently do.

people talk about our golden era. well lets get one thing clear we were a power back then because the club was the best operater in the vfl at getting the right cattle to the club. we would push the boundaries of ethics and even go past those boundaries to get the cattle that we needed.

1986 and its a new system we now have, every club in the comp bar the rfc and ffc have totally embraced the nd and they push the boundaries of ethics if you like. they do what is needed to get and keep the right cattle.

over the last 5 to 10 yrs all clubs bar probably two have realised more and more the importance of early picks its got to the point where nearly all clubs rfc excluded will not give up their first round picks and most certainly top 10 picks for players unless they are exceptional footballers.

we are light yrs away the loss of all those old buggers probably means we will be worse next yr yep it will get worse before it gets better yet people want to forego pps and as many early picks as we can get for a few meaningless wins against fellow strugglers.
meaningless wins just last yr have already cost us watts 1pp rich 3 picks around 19 35 51 67. meaningless wins means we will miss out again on what should have been 1 pp pick 3 or 4 at the start of the first round and a pick around 19.

if the club just bit the bullet the last 3 yrs should have yielded 2007 cotchin 2. rance 18, selwood 19. 2008 watts 1 rich 3 pick 19.
2009 pick 1 pick 3 pick 19,
since wallace has been there and before he came i have screamed out for proper clean outs earluy draft picks a playing of the kids and the tank.under the draft system we have the end justifys the means,

the run home stkilda if they play close to their best we will get a hiding. adelaide another loss. carlton loss. nm 50/50. ess 50/50 melb50/50. syd loss collingwood loss hawthorn loss wce 50/50.

so at seasons end even if we win all 50/50s and we jag one other our wins should go something like this. nm 2. fr 1. me 1. wce 2 jag 1. thats 7 wins and against what why not tank what is there to be gained beating these teams nothing. we had better hurry up and learn how to manipulate the system we are forced to operate under because another decade of exactly the same sh!t will see us in melb and nm shoes.

hear hear - choo bloody choo.

There is no other way we can achieve sustained success other than the ND and we need as many early picks as possible.

How can you gain a winning culture when all you do is beat crap teams who are either crap or who are tanking for picks themselves? When we start beating good teams in big games then maybe these wins will mean something and some sort of culture can develop, but we are as close to this as the north pole is to the south.

We need more quality - other than Cotchin and Deledio the cupboard is pretty bare. Our better and more talented players are over 30 and are gonna retire so it's gonna get much worse before it hopefully gets better. We need to start adding some quality to the list otherwise don't be surpised if Deledio and Cotchin get fed up with the incompetence and ask for a trade.

Here we have an opportunity for 3 top 20 picks and 1 inside the top 3 and we wanna blow that away with meaningless wins against WC Freo and North when the season is completely shot.

 

[Ozmoz]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

hear hear - choo bloody choo.

We need to start adding some quality to the list otherwise don't be surpised if Deledio and Cotchin get fed up with the incompetence and ask for a trade.

Two guys heading for brownlow success, but overlooked because of a yellow stripe :'(

 

[Gunsmoke]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Boy oh boy do I wish Demtriou and his clowns would figure out that the way the draft is set up is increadibly bad for the competitions integrity. I can't stand hoping to lose and I won't cheer against Richmond winning as long as they are playing the kids, but if we win 5 games this year we will regret it for the next 3 - 4 seasons.

 

[Phar Ace]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

We need to start adding some quality to the list otherwise don't be surpised if Deledio and Cotchin get fed up with the incompetence and ask for a trade.

Is that the Clayton's tank - the tank you have when you are not really tanking.

So you think these guys will be even more motivated while we tank for another couple of years of tanking. You gotta be kidding Harold. These guys want to win games of footy (though with Lids we may have "tanked" too much already)

 

[IanG]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

are those same proponents the ones who defended and continue to defend the bowdens browns simmonds pettifers whites and richos of this world they wouldnt know development if they fell over it.

you want to know why development is so bad at the rabble footy club. they keep on picking blokes who have deficiencies that cant be fixed. they struggle to get early picks right yet alone all other types of picks.yet people want to forego the earliest possible picks we can get our hands on.

rfc ferals being rfc ferals its never the players the list is fine its always something else other than we are crap.

Yet again I have to call you on seemingly deliberately misinterpreting what I said, something you hate having happen to you. Pure hypocrisy.

 

[GoodOne]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

One of the most insightful posts I have ever read on here.

Dont read much then?

 

[68ComebackSpecial]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

This issue seems to rear its ugly head time and time again at our club around this time of year when finals seem to be out of the equation. I think that playing for high draft picks has become a bit of a cargo cult as it is seen as the panacea for all our problems. In my opinion, there is no point playing towards a low position to get a player in the draft if we are going to make bad recruiting/trade decisions at seasons end. This problem has haunted us since the draft began.

The first thing to fix is the recruitment decision making process and the individuals/coaches etc involved in this process. They need to be the best money can buy but if the coffers are low because members have dropped off next season, that won't be easy. We can squeeze every bit of quality from the draft no matter where we finish at season's end, providing we have the best people to identify this talent.

Our recruits must walk into a club where mediocrity at training and game day is NOT tolerated. That's where the culture of a club comes into play and where "playing" for high draft picks is actually counterproductive on many levels in the long term. One or two good players alone will not send us up the ladder in a season or two with a bullet. If the synergy of the club is right after we've done some reality checking about where we are, then anything is possible.
Play to win.

 

[mad_tiggy911]

The Tank

Looks like North Melbourne have come to the party. I Wonder if the North Melbourne boys will go out and win for thier new coach next week :hihi

Oh and I've noticed Colin Sylvia mentioning the Demons are now ready to win :rofl

Now that all other sides now have 3 wins next to thier name of course you're allowed to win now Colin.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/78942/default.aspx

Anyone that thinks tanking doesn't exist they are kidding themselves.

 

[JimJessTorp]

Re: The Tank

*snip*
Anyone that thinks tanking doesn't exist they are kidding themselves.

I'm not convinced it exists...

Last year for example...

Round 11

                 W                      
9	 St Kilda	 5
10	Carlton	  5
11	Port Adel	4
12	Richmond	 3
13	West Coast  2
14	Essendon	 2
15	Fremantle	1
16	Melbourne	1

2008 End of H & A

                 W  dPos dWins
9	 Richmond	11	+3	+8
10	Bris Lions 10	-3	+3
11	Carlton	 10	-1	+5
12	Essendon	 8	+2	+6
13	Port Adel	7	-2	+3
14	Fremantle	6	+1	+5
15	West Coast  4	-2	+2
16	Melbourne	3	0	+2

Who tanked?

Melbourne - Won twice as many games in the last half of the year. No position change. Didn't tank - Didn't really need to anyway.
West Coast - *smile* first half of the year got worse. Lost two spots over the last 11 rounds. Tanked? Maaaaaybe...
Fremantle - Won nearly half their last 11 games for one position gain. Definitely didn't tank.
Port - Won an additional 3 games and managed to lose two positions in the last 11 rounds. If they tanked they didn't do it very well as they finished 13th.
Essendon - Won more than half their last 11 games for two positions gain. Definitely didn't tank.
Carlton (bastages) - Won nearly half their last 11 games for one position loss. Definitely didn't tank.
Brisbane Lions - Had a crap last 11 rounds. If they were tanking it was from position 7 at round 11.
The Mighty Mighty Tigers - Had a great last 11 rounds. If they were tanking under Walter's instructions then they got it pretty wrong. ;D

Does tanking exist? Maybe - But I can't see the evidence.

And I'd hate to see the Tigers lay down under instruction.

Fun Ha!

 

[mad_tiggy911]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I'm not convinced it exists...

Last year for example...

Round 11

                 W                      
9	 St Kilda	 5
10	Carlton	  5
11	Port Adel	4
12	Richmond	 3
13	West Coast  2
14	Essendon	 2
15	Fremantle	1
16	Melbourne	1

2008 End of H & A

                 W  dPos dWins
9	 Richmond	11	+3	+8
10	Bris Lions 10	-3	+3
11	Carlton	 10	-1	+5
12	Essendon	 8	+2	+6
13	Port Adel	7	-2	+3
14	Fremantle	6	+1	+5
15	West Coast  4	-2	+2
16	Melbourne	3	0	+2

Who tanked?

Melbourne - Won twice as many games in the last half of the year. No position change. Didn't tank - Didn't really need to anyway.
West Coast - sh!t first half of the year got worse. Lost two spots over the last 11 rounds. Tanked? Maaaaaybe...
Fremantle - Won nearly half their last 11 games for one position gain. Definitely didn't tank.
Port - Won an additional 3 games and managed to lose two positions in the last 11 rounds. If they tanked they didn't do it very well as they finished 13th.
Essendon - Won more than half their last 11 games for two positions gain. Definitely didn't tank.
Carlton (bastages) - Won nearly half their last 11 games for one position loss. Definitely didn't tank.
Brisbane Lions - Had a crap last 11 rounds. If they were tanking it was from position 7 at round 11.
The Mighty Mighty Tigers - Had a great last 11 rounds. If they were tanking under Walter's instructions then they got it pretty wrong. ;D

Does tanking exist? Maybe - But I can't see the evidence.

And I'd hate to see the Tigers lay down under instruction.

Fun Ha!

Tell me you didn't just research that JimJessTorp.

 

[mad_tiggy911]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Priority picks not in Bailey's sights

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/78968/default.aspx

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Could've fooled me Bailey. It's safe to win a game now we're all 8 points ahead of you guys now.

 

[yandb]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

seems we have a few spin doctors joining this thread who want wins in place of better draft picks.

this is the last uncompromised draft we will have for three or four years, if we don't get the best possible picks this year, we struggle in the near future as we will get squat in the way of picks. those who point out that we have tried to bottom out for draft picks many times have not followed our history. we have tried to get wins in the past and have ended up ninth (hence our derogatary nickname ninthmond.) and wallowed in mediocraty.

the eagles are on the tank as are melbourne and now possibly freo and north so any wins we achive against tankers will be eperic victorys not a true reflection of where we are at and will hurt us in the end.

 

[JimJessTorp]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Tell me you didn't just research that JimJessTorp.

;D Nah - I'm a walking stat bucket!

Ohhh look! Bunnies!!!!

 

[Harry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

seems we have a few spin doctors joining this thread who want wins in place of better draft picks.

this is the last uncompromised draft we will have for three or four years, if we don't get the best possible picks this year, we struggle in the near future as we will get squat in the way of picks. those who point out that we have tried to bottom out for draft picks many times have not followed our history. we have tried to get wins in the past and have ended up ninth (hence our derogatary nickname ninthmond.) and wallowed in mediocraty.

the eagles are on the tank as are melbourne and now possibly freo and north so any wins we achive against tankers will be eperic victorys not a true reflection of where we are at and will hurt us in the end.

too true.

 

[Ocker]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

seems we have a few spin doctors joining this thread who want wins in place of better draft picks.

this is the last uncompromised draft we will have for three or four years, if we don't get the best possible picks this year, we struggle in the near future as we will get squat in the way of picks. those who point out that we have tried to bottom out for draft picks many times have not followed our history. we have tried to get wins in the past and have ended up ninth (hence our derogatary nickname ninthmond.) and wallowed in mediocraty.

the eagles are on the tank as are melbourne and now possibly freo and north so any wins we achive against tankers will be eperic victorys not a true reflection of where we are at and will hurt us in the end.

So our future success is reliant on picking up a couple of kids is it?
What about the other 30 or so players aged between 18 - 27 that we already have - most of which are promising (particularly the younger crew)?

I just don't accept the 'doomsdayer' phylosophy / predictions that tanking will be the answer to all of our problems..
This is a negative directive / action IMO.
Surely we need to instil a win-at-all-costs mentality (conditioning)?

Can someone offer an original angle or perpective - a lateral thought even, considering the potential the majority of our list shows?

 

[Baloo]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Surely if the list is as bad as some say, we'll have no chance of winning that many matches that we climb out of the bottom 4. But if we do have a great run home and win more than a handful of matches, maybe our list isn't as bad as some thing.

FWIW, I say play the kids and nothing but the kids (maybe Cuz, Richo, and the other over 30's 1 game each as a farewell). If the kids win, fantastic. If they don't, then at least they are being coached to win games.

 

[davidrodan]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Surely if the list is as bad as some say, we'll have no chance of winning that many matches that we climb out of the bottom 4. But if we do have a great run home and win more than a handful of matches, maybe our list isn't as bad as some thing.

FWIW, I say play the kids and nothing but the kids (maybe Cuz, Richo, and the other over 30's 1 game each as a farewell). If the kids win, fantastic. If they don't, then at least they are being coached to win games.

Agree Baloo
Play the kids, and if they win, great, if not we get a priority, great

Either way it is a win IMO