The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)

[shawry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

ask yourself why he would think we are going nowhere. he wouldnt think that if if a scully and butcher were coming to the club he wouldnt think it if watts and rich were here already.
if deledio gores it will be for one reason he can see the same old same old with no change on the horizon.
. if he goes so be it not much we can do about it anyway. all it means is we should change what we have done and what has forced deledio away and do something we have never done bottom out properly and tank in the process maximising the draft with literally the best kids in the country..

Disagree entirely Claw. Why woudl a bloke want to hang around when your club has the losing type of mentality thatoyu ahve to lose to get better. How is that the type of environment to enhance any type of premiership success for hte future. It is an environment bred by losing and does nothing for anyone. It is a process that will just continue to repeat itself. At least trying to win gives people hope.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

ask yourself why he would think we are going nowhere. he wouldnt think that if if a scully and butcher were coming to the club he wouldnt think it if watts and rich were here already.
if deledio gores it will be for one reason he can see the same old same old with no change on the horizon.
. if he goes so be it not much we can do about it anyway. all it means is we should change what we have done and what has forced deledio away and do something we have never done bottom out properly and tank in the process maximising the draft with literally the best kids in the country..

He would have been excited when Cotchin arrived under that logic.
Sorry clawsy I am not sure I agree with this. You & I might get a thrill at the prospect of landing a potential gun but I find it a stretch that an established senior player would choose to stay a a club because they were excited at picking up talented juniors because they finished last two or three years in a row. Footballers play to win, not for draft picks no matter what they might do to change their fortunes down the line.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

the tank and not to tank theory is a delicate matter but what i do know is the list aint up to it at the minute, to not score "anything" for 2 qtrs was dissapointing to say the least...

People talk about essendon rising so soon, embracing the draft will quicken the process of rebuilding, ive heard some posters say whats 1 player to get for a PP, i look at it as any player we can get within the top 20 for basically nothing is a bonus in our current situtation...Alex Rance was a Priority Pic 18 in 2007....another PP in this coming draft would be another bonus.

For me in the last 3 yrs theres been 2 monumental mistakes, pic 8 on JON was a disaster when the likes of mitch clarke who went the next pic to the lions and the following went not to far after, nathan jones, grant birchall, shaun higgins, travis varcoe etc, grab one player in that lot and use pic 19 on S.Selwood or tatyn pears in the 2007 draft (instead of trading for McMahon) and theres 2 quality players at punt road...

In this coming draft 09', the hearld sun a few days ago said the top 4 players were scully, butcher, trengove and Morabito and then "daylight", we need a top 3 pic at least or worst case top 4, sure more names will pop up as the season goes on but these 4 below are currently the standouts...More than likely Melbourne will have 2 of the below 4.

Tom Scully – The captain was again head and shoulders above anyone else from Vic Metro. He was heavily tagged, but still had 30 disposals, 13 contested – a game-high – six tackles and eight clearances. There was a fair percentage ineffective, but that was due to the enormous pressure put on by SA. His will to run and put himself in the contest was outstanding. He's actually like watching an AFL player, who is dropping back to play in the championships. He is absolutely ready-made.
Draft eligibility: 2009 NAB AFL Draft

John Butcher – The big focal point up forward had 19 disposals, seven marks (three contested), although his goalkicking let him down. He booted two goals and five behinds.
Draft eligibility: 2009 NAB AFL Draft

Jack Trengove – The captain was impressive again. He won 31 disposals in game one, and although he had 18 against Queensland, his class shone through, particularly when he snapped a last quarter goal over his shoulder. He is a courageous midfielder/forward.
Draft eligibility: 2009 NAB AFL Draft

Anthony Morabito – Rated WA's second best by the coaches, I thought he was okay in the first half, but he set the game alight in the third quarter. He collected 17 disposals, 11 contested, laid four tackles and had six inside 50s. There is an X-factor about him.
Draft eligibility: 2009 NAB AFL Draft

 

[Tigerbob]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

We have to ensure we are able to get one of the other guys, and add Koby Stevens to that list.

We cannot get any picks lower that will ruin the chance to get a top liner in this year.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

We have to ensure we are able to get one of the other guys, and add Koby Stevens to that list.

We cannot get any picks lower that will ruin the chance to get a top liner in this year.

absolutely, we need to get atleast 1 of those 4 which in all likely hood we will.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

We have to ensure we are able to get one of the other guys, and add Koby Stevens to that list.

Koby Stevens – He was unbelievable with his attack on the ball. He had 22 disposals, nine tackles (after laying 10 last match), four clearances, six inside-50s and three rebound 50s. He has a phenomenal work-rate and you're never going to die wondering with Koby.
Draft eligibility: 2009 NAB AFL Draft

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

This is why i and others are harping on about 3 pics within the top 20, u can get quality players which the end result is to the betterment of the RFC...

The risk factor is less when choosing within the top 20 as opposed to top 35 or 40+

We know and cant fathom how Millertime picked JON at pic 8 in 2005 but these days a top 10 and almost to top 20 are more scrutinized than ever before.

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Disagree entirely Claw. Why woudl a bloke want to hang around when your club has the losing type of mentality thatoyu ahve to lose to get better. How is that the type of environment to enhance any type of premiership success for hte future. It is an environment bred by losing and does nothing for anyone. It is a process that will just continue to repeat itself. At least trying to win gives people hope.

He would have been excited when Cotchin arrived under that logic.
Sorry clawsy I am not sure I agree with this. You & I might get a thrill at the prospect of landing a potential gun but I find it a stretch that an established senior player would choose to stay a a club because they were excited at picking up talented juniors because they finished last two or three years in a row. Footballers play to win, not for draft picks no matter what they might do to change their fortunes down the line.

well lads we will have to agree to disagree. im not arguing the point on this anymore my stance has been clear for yrs and if deledio is lost or cotchin it will be because for 5 yrs theres been no change to the way we do things and we fail to bring quality to the club.
brad ottens anyone.

 

[Harry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Would you really blame Deledio or Cotchin if they wanted to leave - they weren't tiger supporters to begin with. If I was in their shoes I'd ask for a trade from the rabble.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

well lads we will have to agree to disagree. im not arguing the point on this anymore my stance has been clear for yrs and if deledio is lost or cotchin it will be because for 5 yrs theres been no change to the way we do things and we fail to bring quality to the club.
brad ottens anyone.

Well I think it's definitely true that we have to massively improve the quality of our recruiting whether it's pick 1, 19 or 35.
However that's a whole different argument to what the effect of finishing last for a couple of years in order to rectify it has on players already there.

Would you really blame Deledio or Cotchin if they wanted to leave - they weren't tiger supporters to begin with. If I was in their shoes I'd ask for a trade from the rabble.

Again that kind of defeats the purpose of deliberately finishing as lowly as possible for draft picks.
Guys like Deledio and Cotchin are only interested in winning, not the promise of what might be if we 'bottom out'.
Footballers careers aren't as long as supporters in the stands will follow the club. They are hungry for success or should be.
Losing is enough to make any player want to leave.

BTW I am all for utilising the system this year given GC17s impending pillage but I wouldn't want to make a habit of the tank.

 

[Harry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Again that kind of defeats the purpose of deliberately finishing as lowly as possible for draft picks.
Guys like Deledio and Cotchin are only interested in winning, not the promise of what might be if we 'bottom out'.
Footballers careers aren't as long as supporters in the stands will follow the club. They are hungry for success or should be.
Losing is enough to make any player want to leave.

If we bottomed out and started to properly rebuild when we should have from 2004 instead of trying to scrape to mid table by recruiting older retreads and persisted with the average senior underperformers then we would have had early picks galore and priorities during 2005, 2006 and perhaps 2007. Deledio would be surrounded with and developed with a bunch of talented players like murphy, ellis, thomas, pendlebury, birchall, higgins, gibbs, hansen, ryder, gumbleton, etc instead of battlers that he's currently surrounded by.

It's about biting the bullet and bottoming out in order to flood the club with many talented players at the same time so they can develop and mature together - so they can change the culture and lead from the front. There's no point getting a few and throwing them in with the hacks we already have and recruiting other hacks from other clubs and expecting them to shine.

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Well I think it's definitely true that we have to massively improve the quality of our recruiting whether it's pick 1, 19 or 35.
However that's a whole different argument to what the effect of finishing last for a couple of years in order to rectify it has on players already there.

Again that kind of defeats the purpose of deliberately finishing as lowly as possible for draft picks.
Guys like Deledio and Cotchin are only interested in winning, not the promise of what might be if we 'bottom out'.
Footballers careers aren't as long as supporters in the stands will follow the club. They are hungry for success or should be.
Losing is enough to make any player want to leave.

BTW I am all for utilising the system this year given GC17s impending pillage but I wouldn't want to make a habit of the tank.

your all arse about oldie but he weve been there done that.

 

[Elmer]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Interesting to hear Buckley say on AW the other day that after the 2nd round, it is lottery (on historical stats) and that you have as much chance of success with an early 3rd rouner (say pick 40) as pick 70+.

Does that mean trading for anything other than a 2nd round pick doesn't mean anything?

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

If we bottomed out and started to properly rebuild when we should have from 2004 instead of trying to scrape to mid table by recruiting older retreads and persisted with the average senior underperformers then we would have had early picks galore and priorities during 2005, 2006 and perhaps 2007.

Don't disagree with that. Wallet missed a golden opportunity in his first two seasons at least.
I hope that the next coach spells it out loud and clear that there is going to be pain ahead.
However at least this time up we have at least a couple of genuinely talented kids but we don't want to start losing them elsewhere or the rebuild just goes on and on..

your all bottom about oldie but he weve been there done that.

Yep you'd like us to come last every year until we somehow miraculously win the flag.
Rinse and repeat.

Let's focus on improving recruiting first and foremost (utilising the draft) and then we might actually start to improve.

 

[martyshire]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I thought Friday night's game between Essendon and Carlton highlighted the extent to which tanking, high draft picks and the big name players that come with it (i.e. Judd, Kruezer, Gibbs, etc etc) are not as important as some people think.

 

[Tygrys]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I thought Friday night's game between Essendon and Carlton highlighted the extent to which tanking, high draft picks and the big name players that come with it (i.e. Judd, Kruezer, Gibbs, etc etc) are not as important as some people think.

Yep if it wasn't for Hawthorn winning the premiership last year and St Kilda being undefeated on top the ladder after a number of years of finals appearances you might have a point (although you can pick any single match in isolation to prove any thing you want - the Richmond versus Carlton first rounder being a prime example). Carlton has still shown enough this year to suggest that they will be very good, and given time Melbourne will storm past us with all their high draft picks. Again have to wonder how many Melbourne clubs need to leave us in their wake after having tanked for the message to sink in?

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Don't disagree with that. Wallet missed a golden opportunity in his first two seasons at least.
I hope that the next coach spells it out loud and clear that there is going to be pain ahead.
However at least this time up we have at least a couple of genuinely talented kids but we don't want to start losing them elsewhere or the rebuild just goes on and on..

Yep you'd like us to come last every year until we somehow miraculously win the flag.
Rinse and repeat.

Let's focus on improving recruiting first and foremost (utilising the draft) and then we might actually start to improve.

sheesh have never said anything differently.
mate your all over the shop you either bottom out or you have a scheme system whatever ideas to do it another way.
you blame a process that we have never properly gone thru for the ills that have befallen us when the opposite is true.in fact you are sdaying we cant afford to bottom out because all these ills are going to happen when in effect those ills ARE HAPPENING NOW AND WILL NEVER GO AWAY UN;LESS WE EMBRACE THE ND SYSTEM AND CHANGE WHAT WE ARE DOING.

you want to tank but only for one yr it seems. if we are in the position where we need to tank, one yr just wont cut the mustard old son. THERE CAN BE NO HALF MEASURES OLDIE EITHER EMBRACE WHAT HAS TO BE OR DONT BOTHER.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Clawsy you left the CAPS LOCK ON AGAIN! ;D

 

[Stuart]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Surprise, surprise, WCE are playing Melbourne & Daniel Kerr is out with soreness.
Late season wins or priority picks!!!

 

[tigers80]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

at this stage of the game....stuff the wins get the picks....oops thats right it wouldnt matter anyway we would stuff up the picks anyway...
its so Richmond...