The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Too much at risk with tanking. SUpporters dropping off due to losing, players losing interest

sorry mate for chopping ur post to 1 line but dont u think continually not making finals year after year eventually will have players losing interest and how long can "us" supporters hold on to us not making finals year in year out, ok, lets say we win 5 of the last 9, miss out on the finals like last year, then next year starts and we hope in hell like we do every year that we rise up the ladder, if we dont and yes its an 'if" we will be revisting this thread saying we need clas players shouldve had pics 3, 18, 19 etc as we do need more depth, i really belive that...im one who belives we have some exciting players on the rise but we need to add to that young talent, this is the last major draft and we need to heavily be involved with decent early pics...

Look every year i believe we can make the 8, its called hope....with a new coach and new disciplines this will go a long way for our players self belief.

You need to ask urself can we make the 8, if not, we'll do what we did last year win late games but what did that do for us this year...
Might as well pick up early pics and boost the list as after this draft there wont be much on offer as GC will clean up and WS too.

 

[Phar Ace]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

lol to much risk after 26 yrs of the same the real risk is to do what we have always done. oh well im looking forward to another 26 yrs of mediocrity with ferals worrying about doing things differently but ultimately doing nothing.

Better to fail, trying, than to try failing..........

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Just be happy your side won tonight Claw

touche lol.

 

[thomas the tiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Better to get some decent picks and actually build a good list. Keep tanking please Tigers.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

touche lol.

;D ;D ;D

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Better to fail, trying, than to try failing..........

not the way the system works anymore. forget about what is probably right and think about the system. at the end of the day that is all that matters.

 

[shawry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

sorry mate for chopping ur post to 1 line but dont u think continually not making finals year after year eventually will have players losing interest and how long can "us" supporters hold on to us not making finals year in year out, ok, lets say we win 5 of the last 9, miss out on the finals like last year, then next year starts and we hope in hell like we do every year that we rise up the ladder, if we dont and yes its an 'if" we will be revisting this thread saying we need clas players shouldve had pics 3, 18, 19 etc as we do need more depth, i really belive that...im one who belives we have some exciting players on the rise but we need to add to that young talent, this is the last major draft and we need to heavily be involved with decent early pics...

Look every year i believe we can make the 8, its called hope....with a new coach and new disciplines this will go a long way for our players self belief.

You need to ask urself can we make the 8, if not, we'll do what we did last year win late games but what did that do for us this year...
Might as well pick up early pics and boost the list as after this draft there wont be much on offer as GC will clean up and WS too.

Yes I do agree that continually not making finals would lead to the drop in interest and perhaps Deledio is suffering a bit from that at the moment.

However tanking is not the answer. Makes hte situation worse. Nothing builds camaradarie in team sports like winning. Losing creates divides. ITs amazing how seemingly average palyers in other sides a few years ago are now in winning sides and being hailedas good players who if they were ever at Richmond the ferals like Claw would have dmeanded they go long ago.

I am nowhere near satisfied with the clubs situation, however if they ever considered a tank I would totally lose respect for this club, they would take the art of losing to a new level. one I honestly dont bleieve the club could recover from. It is impossible anyway with too many careers on the line etc, but the mere theory of it is disgraceful and I belive too detrimental where as I have mentioned in the past the negatives far outweigh the seemingly ultimate in somes eyes positives. Unfortunaely high draft picks are only one player in a team and cannot make the difference to become a peremiership contender. Only great teams win them.

 

[Phar Ace]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

not the way the system works anymore. forget about what is probably right and think about the system. at the end of the day that is all that matters.

OK, to help me and others understand a better use of 'the system' as you describe it, how many 1st, or priority draft picks have premiership medalions (ultimate success) hanging around their necks - must surely be the true test of tanking? There must be quite few from the last, say 15 years?

 

[shawry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

OK, to help me and others understand a better use of 'the system' as you describe it, how many 1st, or priority draft picks have premiership medalions (ultimate success) hanging around their necks - must surely be the true test of tanking? There must be quite few from the last, say 15 years?

Here here Pharace. Of course Claws always right posting style should be able to come up with an adequate response for that query.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Yes I do agree that continually not making finals would lead to the drop in interest and perhaps Deledio is suffering a bit from that at the moment.

However tanking is not the answer. Makes hte situation worse. Nothing builds camaradarie in team sports like winning. Losing creates divides. ITs amazing how seemingly average palyers in other sides a few years ago are now in winning sides and being hailedas good players who if they were ever at Richmond the ferals like Claw would have dmeanded they go long ago.

I am nowhere near satisfied with the clubs situation, however if they ever considered a tank I would totally lose respect for this club, they would take the art of losing to a new level. one I honestly dont bleieve the club could recover from. It is impossible anyway with too many careers on the line etc, but the mere theory of it is disgraceful and I belive too detrimental where as I have mentioned in the past the negatives far outweigh the seemingly ultimate in somes eyes positives. Unfortunaely high draft picks are only one player in a team and cannot make the difference to become a peremiership contender. Only great teams win them.

Balanced post shawry, agree on average players all of a sudden looking good or half decent, IE: zac dawson...

Just on the question of the tank, do u believe anyway regardless of this tank talk that we are good enough to win 5 or 6 of the last 9, this is the last remaining games below who we play...do u think there is 5 or 6 wins there?

RD 13 - Saints
RD 14 - Crows
RD 15 - Blues
RD 16 - Roos
RD 17 - Bombers
RD 18 - Dees
RD 19 - Swans
RD 20 - Pies
RD 21 - Hawks
RD 22- Eagles

Well continually getting early draft pics over several years isn’t 1 player could well be 6, 7 or 8 and those players could well form the nucleus to what we already have in terms of exciting young talent...

Agree that it’s a team game and everyone contributing will go further than a lone hand but last year the hawks and regardless whats happening this year they won the flag they’re the reigning premiers (wish we could say that) and buddy and Roughhead and Jordan lewis were all picked in the top 7 of the 2004 draft, do u think they would’ve won the premiership without them, those 3 were damn good last year...

It’s a good thread in that we all have our own opinions, ive just got to the point that enough is enough, i go every week and bloody hate leaving the ground a loser, how do we change that do some of our players all of a sudden become stars, ok Zac Dawson has improved but have a look at the saints side they have some real guns right across the park where do u think Nick Riewoldt and kosi went in the draft, pics 1 and 2 to the saints in 2001.

 

[shawry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Balanced post shawry, agree on average players all of a sudden looking good or half decent, IE: zac dawson...

Just on the question of the tank, do u believe anyway regardless of this tank talk that we are good enough to win 5 or 6 of the last 9, this is the last remaining games below who we play...do u think there is 5 or 6 wins there?

RD 13 - Saints
RD 14 - Crows
RD 15 - Blues
RD 16 - Roos
RD 17 - Bombers
RD 18 - Dees
RD 19 - Swans
RD 20 - Pies
RD 21 - Hawks
RD 22- Eagles

Well continually getting early draft pics over several years isn’t 1 player could well be 6, 7 or 8 and those players could well form the nucleus to what we already have in terms of exciting young talent...

Agree that it’s a team game and everyone contributing will go further than a lone hand but last year the hawks and regardless whats happening this year they won the flag they’re the reigning premiers (wish we could say that) and buddy and Roughhead and Jordan lewis were all picked in the top 7 of the 2004 draft, do u think they would’ve won the premiership without them, those 3 were damn good last year...

It’s a good thread in that we all have our own opinions, ive just got to the point that enough is enough, i go every week and bloody hate leaving the ground a loser, how do we change that do some of our players all of a sudden become stars, ok Zac Dawson has improved but have a look at the saints side they have some real guns right across the park where do u think Nick Riewoldt and kosi went in the draft, pics 1 and 2 to the saints in 2001.

Thankyou Astute Tiger. Call me an optimist but I do honestly belive that the change of coach could ahve a massive effect on our form and help us in wins. It could breed new confidence in players (which I still belive can be the in mabetween levels of performance in a player) in that the new coach may have faith where the other may not have. Players have a new person to impress and most likely dont know who it is. Builds a new lease of life in them and gives them the chance.

In relation to over 6-7 years yes I agree but would you if you were a player really want to hang around in a side losing that much. With no real hope in sight. It would have to affect your performance. You would become selfish thinking your teammates arent good enough to help you. It is not good for a cohesive team environment thus why we have been so bad for so long. Endless cycle, Tnaking would not help that. Sure wed get some good players out of it but the environment they are playing in I am lefti n no doubt would sap them. Is that any different ot our situation now regardless of what happens, most likely not. It sounds like from what I am saying that there is no answer in sight but culture in an organisation takes a long time to build and from what I am hearing all seems to be heading a positive direction in relation to off field culture. Tanking would not help that culture and would set it back in my opinion.

I consider those advocating taking to be similar to those they accuse of going for quick fixes. IT seems a simple solution in theory to tank but cannot be a pleasant environment to play footy in. I as a player would not want ot play for a club where you are not given a chance to win. Why would you. What would be the point. Too much hopelessness, how is that good for young players?

Interesting discussion and as I ahve mentioned I belive tanking would be impossible to implement regardless jsut due to the nature of playters, football and ocmpetitiveness so is probably a moot point but that is how I feel. I ahve palyed team sports my whole life and if I ever lost that urge to win, I might as well retire. What would be the point. No amount of money would make me lose the integrity of wanting to go into battle with teammates and try to help your mates get over the line.

 

[Phar Ace]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I ahve palyed team sports my whole life and if I ever lost that urge to win, I might as well retire. What would be the point. No amount of money would make me lose the integrity of wanting to go into battle with teammates and try to help your mates get over the line.

Remember that loss of urge playing in my last finals series, losing, thinking why am I still doing this. Hung up the boots. Agree, whether for money or not, in competitive sport, losing carries no joy, can be tolerated only so long, and the higher the level, the more the pain.

For this reason I agree that tanking would be difficult to manufacture (as proven by West Coast tonight). You can leave some players out, ala Port Adelaide last season. Guess the Hartlett result in years to come will have some bearing on it's worth.

Stutey and Claw think West Coast did as well - I think they were just that bad. Melbourne too are proving that.

 

[shawry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Remember that loss of urge playing in my last finals series, losing, thinking why am I still doing this. Hung up the boots. Agree, whether for money or not, in competitive sport, losing carries no joy, can be tolerated only so long, and the higher the level, the more the pain.

For this reason I agree that tanking would be difficult to manufacture (as proven by West Coast tonight). You can leave some players out, ala Port Adelaide last season. Guess the Hartlett result in years to come will have some bearing on it's worth.

Stutey and Claw think West Coast did as well - I think they were just that bad. Melbourne too are proving that.

I can see why they'd consider that about West Coast as they were premiers not that long ago, although Iagree with you I belive they were that bad. Losing Judd and Cousins out of their midfield didnt help either. Many posters use Convenient situations to justify their arguments. We will never know if they are right, although I share your view.

 

[IanG]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

each to their own pharace, i did think that last year though but this year after 2nite perhaps not...

And what about the matches earlier this year when they looked worse than Melbourne. The fact is they are a young side and inconsistent as a result.

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Too much at risk with tanking. Players llosing integrity in the club knowing they are not being givenbest chances of winning, it is a recipe for ultimate failure. Apart from getting a good palyer every now and then hte negatives outweigh them way too much. SUpporters dropping off due to losing, lack of membership, appeal to sponsors not as good, players losing interest and belief in the values of the club they are palying for. Tanking is ridiculous and has way too many negative consequences that would outweigh getting a potential superstar who will end up not being of much value due to the reasons mentioned above. How can his talents be utilised properly in a culture of perennial failure. Why would they want to bother.

lol that is exactly what happens now. we are a joke and atm come draft day the majority of draftees are hoping they dont go to richmond, prolonged failure with no real signs of improvement is what will lose the cotchins and deledios to other clubs.not a few yrs of low finishes with pps.
again what is better 4 wins and a pp and first crack each round or the 5 or maybe 6 wins we will end up with. what will 2 extra wins this yr prove or bring to the club. wins that will be against middling to struggling teams.

whos going to improve the most. melb who is in a similar boat to us in fact are better of than us imo as far as list goes. or us. melb get picks 1 and 2 we get pick 8. what will happen is what always happens melb will go past us to finals while we manage a few meaningless wins to 9th and then drop back down for the process to happen again wth another team who dropped below us while we finished 9th to go past us.look at the history learn from it. we are downwe are crap and while we are down we have to maximise our draft picks. we have to do better than all other teams or we will continue to do exactly what we have done for the last 23 yrs.

the non tankers have had 23 yrs and look where its got us time to give the tank a go because for sure and certain it cannot get anyworse than it is now or has been.

im just another internet jock like everyone else but in all honesty given 3 or 4 yrs of bottoming out i would guarantee a top 4 side at the end of it., with proper appraisal and rating of current players full use of the rookie system as many early picks in conjuncture with as many overall picks being used as possible.

finally we dont need to tank for probably 90% of our games we arent good enough to win them anyway. but there is less than a handful of games where we should be aiming to protect the pp.in these games do we send players out with instructions to lose of course not. this just doesnt happen. but we select a side with the onus on youth development experimentation as the priority.

ive already stated as a club we should be going all out for a win over stkilda today knowing full well it is unlikely to happen. when we play nm rnd 16 we prioritise youth rest say a cousins we give kids a lot of game time we try players in different positions. and we lose because the structure and experience arent quite right.


you talk as if we have a chance of winning most games reality is we dont. reality is we have more chance of getting worse in the short term than improving.

ultimate failure eh the closest thing i have seen to ultimate failure is the rfc in the draft period. for 23 yrs we have failed to use the system properly and you go on about deliberately tanking for 3 yrs as being to risky unbelievable.

if we had bottomed out and took our medicine for three or 4 yrs as we should have under wallace we would now be looking forward to a bright future. the imminent onset of finals and have prospective coaches clamouring to get the gig. instead like our finishes and our approach we are mediocre look like remaining mediocre for at least another 3 or 4 yrs and will have to work damn hard to encourage a decent coach to the club. failure to bottom out has cost this and more. continual mediocrity costs us memberships we dont get sponsorships players want to leave because they cant see anything changing or the club doing anything different to what it has always done. you talk about all these things happening if we tank mate they are happening now. the club is on a merry go rund and there is only one way to get of but that means accepting short term pain. we get the pain now but just dont accept it or do anything to change it.

 

[Phar Ace]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

OK Claw, I sense from that last post that you consider a carefully orchestrated selection table for three to four years will guarantee the club a top 4 spot for many years to follow, but may not deliver a premiership? Is that were you stand now rather than trying to lose all games?

 

[shawry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

lol that is exactly what happens now. we are a joke and atm come draft day the majority of draftees are hoping they dont go to richmond, prolonged failure with no real signs of improvement is what will lose the cotchins and deledios to other clubs.not a few yrs of low finishes with pps.
again what is better 4 wins and a pp and first crack each round or the 5 or maybe 6 wins we will end up with. what will 2 extra wins this yr prove or bring to the club. wins that will be against middling to struggling teams.

whos going to improve the most. melb who is in a similar boat to us in fact are better of than us imo as far as list goes. or us. melb get picks 1 and 2 we get pick 8. what will happen is what always happens melb will go past us to finals while we manage a few meaningless wins to 9th and then drop back down for the process to happen again wth another team who dropped below us while we finished 9th to go past us.look at the history learn from it. we are downwe are crap and while we are down we have to maximise our draft picks. we have to do better than all other teams or we will continue to do exactly what we have done for the last 23 yrs.

the non tankers have had 23 yrs and look where its got us time to give the tank a go because for sure and certain it cannot get anyworse than it is now or has been.

im just another internet jock like everyone else but in all honesty given 3 or 4 yrs of bottoming out i would guarantee a top 4 side at the end of it., with proper appraisal and rating of current players full use of the rookie system as many early picks in conjuncture with as many overall picks being used as possible.

finally we dont need to tank for probably 90% of our games we arent good enough to win them anyway. but there is less than a handful of games where we should be aiming to protect the pp.in these games do we send players out with instructions to lose of course not. this just doesnt happen. but we select a side with the onus on youth development experimentation as the priority.

ive already stated as a club we should be going all out for a win over stkilda today knowing full well it is unlikely to happen. when we play nm rnd 16 we prioritise youth rest say a cousins we give kids a lot of game time we try players in different positions. and we lose because the structure and experience arent quite right.


you talk as if we have a chance of winning most games reality is we dont. reality is we have more chance of getting worse in the short term than improving.

ultimate failure eh the closest thing i have seen to ultimate failure is the rfc in the draft period. for 23 yrs we have failed to use the system properly and you go on about deliberately tanking for 3 yrs as being to risky unbelievable.

if we had bottomed out and took our medicine for three or 4 yrs as we should have under wallace we would now be looking forward to a bright future. the imminent onset of finals and have prospective coaches clamouring to get the gig. instead like our finishes and our approach we are mediocre look like remaining mediocre for at least another 3 or 4 yrs and will have to work damn hard to encourage a decent coach to the club. failure to bottom out has cost this and more. continual mediocrity costs us memberships we dont get sponsorships players want to leave because they cant see anything changing or the club doing anything different to what it has always done. you talk about all these things happening if we tank mate they are happening now. the club is on a merry go rund and there is only one way to get of but that means accepting short term pain. we get the pain now but just dont accept it or do anything to change it.

Claw if you read my whole post yo uwould see that I did mention that what I stated was no different to now. I jsut dont see how it is making the culture any better by tanking, the off field seems to by all accounts be making inroads and this is the firstr step. Onfield should start to follow after that. No guarantees of course.

And I dont think our list is substantially worse than most and I would say it is better than Melbourne's and Kangaroos based on my observations the players arent palying well and I put that down to the culture. Difference of opinion but im sticking with it.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

lol that is exactly what happens now. we are a joke and atm come draft day the majority of draftees are hoping they dont go to richmond, prolonged failure with no real signs of improvement is what will lose the cotchins and deledios to other clubs.not a few yrs of low finishes with pps.
again what is better 4 wins and a pp and first crack each round or the 5 or maybe 6 wins we will end up with. what will 2 extra wins this yr prove or bring to the club. wins that will be against middling to struggling teams.

whos going to improve the most. melb who is in a similar boat to us in fact are better of than us imo as far as list goes. or us. melb get picks 1 and 2 we get pick 8. what will happen is what always happens melb will go past us to finals while we manage a few meaningless wins to 9th and then drop back down for the process to happen again wth another team who dropped below us while we finished 9th to go past us.look at the history learn from it. we are downwe are crap and while we are down we have to maximise our draft picks. we have to do better than all other teams or we will continue to do exactly what we have done for the last 23 yrs.

the non tankers have had 23 yrs and look where its got us time to give the tank a go because for sure and certain it cannot get anyworse than it is now or has been.

im just another internet jock like everyone else but in all honesty given 3 or 4 yrs of bottoming out i would guarantee a top 4 side at the end of it., with proper appraisal and rating of current players full use of the rookie system as many early picks in conjuncture with as many overall picks being used as possible.

finally we dont need to tank for probably 90% of our games we arent good enough to win them anyway. but there is less than a handful of games where we should be aiming to protect the pp.in these games do we send players out with instructions to lose of course not. this just doesnt happen. but we select a side with the onus on youth development experimentation as the priority.

ive already stated as a club we should be going all out for a win over stkilda today knowing full well it is unlikely to happen. when we play nm rnd 16 we prioritise youth rest say a cousins we give kids a lot of game time we try players in different positions. and we lose because the structure and experience arent quite right.


you talk as if we have a chance of winning most games reality is we dont. reality is we have more chance of getting worse in the short term than improving.

ultimate failure eh the closest thing i have seen to ultimate failure is the rfc in the draft period. for 23 yrs we have failed to use the system properly and you go on about deliberately tanking for 3 yrs as being to risky unbelievable.

if we had bottomed out and took our medicine for three or 4 yrs as we should have under wallace we would now be looking forward to a bright future. the imminent onset of finals and have prospective coaches clamouring to get the gig. instead like our finishes and our approach we are mediocre look like remaining mediocre for at least another 3 or 4 yrs and will have to work damn hard to encourage a decent coach to the club. failure to bottom out has cost this and more. continual mediocrity costs us memberships we dont get sponsorships players want to leave because they cant see anything changing or the club doing anything different to what it has always done. you talk about all these things happening if we tank mate they are happening now. the club is on a merry go rund and there is only one way to get of but that means accepting short term pain. we get the pain now but just dont accept it or do anything to change it.

:clap
Well said, nothing to be gained from winning a few meaningless games this season. Only thing I am really watching now is to ensure that Kangas, Freo and WCE win more than 4 games leaving us and the real rabble this season, Melbourne, to clean up with draft picks.

Do you really think 3-4 years in the basement is required Claw?? I think the list is a little better than that and a good development Coach should bring the best out of them. Look at Essendon this season- I personally had them bottom 4 and they have really surprised. We do need to find good key forwards but I believe our biggest issue this year has been an appalling game plan.

 

[marsinvenus]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

TANK

 

[craig]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Agreed.

4 top 20 picks if we can trade for one is the best go for the Tigs, as long as they arent wasted on the likes of Meyer, Jon Pattison and Polo ffs.