The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged) | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)

Whats more important late season Wins or Early Draft pics?

  • Draft pics (inc priority pic)

    Votes: 98 56.6%
  • Late Season Wins

    Votes: 75 43.4%

  • Total voters
    173
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Opulentus Tigris said:
Agree Ocker, Harry is a coach potato, whom having never played the game before, could not possibly understand what culture at a footy club really means. Everyone who has played the game plays to win. Rediculous to think losing games would be good for the club, the players or the supporters. Unless you are an armchair expert who has never played a game of footy in their life.

lol - which AFL club did you play for again ?

Why have WCE given Worsefold an extension - coz he plays to win? He's tanking dude and WCE couldn't be happier. They'll be holding up the cup light years before we do, don't worry about that.

You've obviously played for a club with a greater culture and played at a higher level than the West Coast have. Or Carlton or Hawthorn for that matter.

Go back to your suburban football team and "play to win" all you like. This isn't the little league we are talking about here.

lol.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Could it be Mr. March has answered some of our prayers and set an agenda for the remainder of the season? This match could get ugly. What a perfect way to start up the tank. :police:
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Harry said:
lol - which AFL club did you play for again ?

Why have WCE given Worsefold an extension - coz he plays to win? He's tanking dude and WCE couldn't be happier. They'll be holding up the cup light years before we do, don't worry about that.

You've obviously played for a club with a greater culture and played at a higher level than the West Coast have. Or Carlton or Hawthorn for that matter.

Go back to your suburban football team and "play to win" all you like. This isn't the little league we are talking about here.

lol.
You're just compounding the fact that you have no idea what true club culture is (fool).
Doesn't matter if it's AFL, District / Metro, Junior Level...you go out there to win and success is success.

Who ate all the pies, Harry?
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Ocker said:
You're just compounding the fact that you have no idea what true club culture is (fool).
Doesn't matter if it's AFL, District / Metro, Junior Level...you go out there to win and success is success.

Who ate all the pies, Harry?

Do the District / Metro, junior levels have a national draft where you can gain the best talent in the country ?


"Winning culture" - Typical Richmond attitude. How come other clubs don't crave a "winning culture" with meaningless wins.

When's the last time we won a big game that actually meant something? When there was something actually on the line? When the season was alive and we were a chance at something? That's when you gain a winning culture.

We won't gain genuine improvement until we get into the habit of fully utilising the national draft system. And as we are in such a poor state now and our season is gone, we need to tank and get the early pick and priority pick this year. If we are in a similar position next year we need to tank hard again.

You can't make duds into superstars by hope and by meaningless wins (against clubs who gift you games btw). Pull your head out of the sand and gain some reality.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Harry said:
When's the last time we won a big game that actually meant something? When there was something actually on the line? When the season was alive and we were a chance at something? That's when you gain a winning culture.

Carlton. Semi-final 2001. Says it all really. :-\
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Settle down Harry or your wig'll fly off.

O.K, answer me this my learned combatant...

How many No.1 or 2 draft picks were in the Brisbane outfit of 2001-2003?
Sydney's been a pretty good team for some time...don't think they've tanked too much.
Geelong really dive-bombed to get where they're at didn't they?



C'mon Harry...bring it on!!!
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

yeah harry bring it on :rofl. tanking with thomas just not good enough we need a big tank why not gordon. :hihi
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Still waiting....'arry.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Ocker said:
Settle down Harry or your wig'll fly off.

O.K, answer me this my learned combatant...

How many No.1 or 2 draft picks were in the Brisbane outfit of 2001-2003?
Sydney's been a pretty good team for some time...don't think they've tanked too much.
Geelong really dive-bombed to get where they're at didn't they?



C'mon Harry...bring it on!!!

Brisbane and Sydney have had salary cap and rookie list advantages over the rest of the comp for many years. Also most of Brisbanes players were recruited before 1995 when the draft wasn't as scrutinised and disected as it is now. The draft is more important now than it was say 10 years ago as the chances the better players will slip late into the draft are significantly less.

As for Geelong - there are many posts in this thread explaining why we shouldn't compare ourselves to Geelong. Scroll through and have a read in your spare time.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Harry said:
Brisbane and Sydney have had salary cap and rookie list advantages over the rest of the comp for many years. Also most of Brisbanes players were recruited before 1995 when the draft wasn't as scrutinised and disected as it is now. The draft is more important now than it was say 10 years ago as the chances the better players will slip late into the draft are significantly less.

As for Geelong - there are many posts in this thread explaining why we shouldn't compare ourselves to Geelong. Scroll through and have a read in your spare time.

Brisbane still had zone players as well, Lappin was one IIRC
And had some players that they got for free from Fitzroy, Chris Johnson, Lynch, any more?
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

TigerMasochist said:
Pretty simple isn't it.
The Cats and Sydney have been working to the same basic principle.
Take your picks at the draft table, trade if you must to adjust the balance of your side and put every iota of energy into developing the best possible practices, performance and integrity out of the players you have.
It's something called " culture '' and will always hold you in good stead when the sh!ts hitting the fan.
I'll take it any day compared to rolling over and baring the bottom to get hammered, because you can guarantee that taking the easy option is a much easier culture to develop than busting the proverbials at all costs.
geelong and sydney havent had much choice in the matter of tanking now have they.

sydney have missed finals just twice since 1995 thru massive concessions that all other teams didnt get other than brisbane, so they have been able to stay up.

but now that many concessions are coming to an end or most other sides are being put on an equal footing their recruiting policies are starting to catch up to them, already they are screaming out for more concessions and they havent yet missed finals. by the way the two yrs they missed 2000 10th and 2002 11th they had a percentage that suggested they were top 5 or 6.

from 1990 to 1995 they had finishes of 13th in a 14 team comp, 12th in a 15 team comp,15th in 15 team comp. ditto 93 ditto 94 then 12th of 16 in 95. 6 yrs of shocking finishes with early picks and then a gf they built a core group that would take them well in to the new millenium. the afl just had to make sydney a success.
the simple fact is it is not an equal playing field the afl will not allow sydney to flounder near the bottom of the ladder for to long.

geelong well they have been done to death it has been pointed out by many that their team has been mainly built on the back of 3 drafts yrs when they had low finishes. they have not had a need to bottom out because they have had good core groups to build around since the 80s they have not allowed their lists to deteriorate into a shambles.
30 of their list has come in the first 3 rounds of the draft they have had an ability to trade into picks in these rounds

at the end of the day how for run down your list is determines how far back you have to go. also the changing climate of the draft or professionalism nowadays if you like where 1st and 2nd rnd picks are heavily coveted means all sides will now have to spend their fair share of time at or near the bottom because increasingly all clubs are coming to the conclusion that first dibs at the kids is paramount.what you do while near the bottom will determine how far you climb.

the bottoming out process is not a guarantee of a premiership but if done correctly it is a guarantee of sustained finals performances over a 3 or 5 or more yr period. the old saying you have to get their to be a chance rings true.

ive said this before i will say it again we have never embraced a proper bottoming out process utilising as many early to mid range picks as we can get our hands on never. we have had 26 yrs of going on to win meaningless games and it has had us mired in mediocrity for 24 of those yrs.

winning meaningless games against poor opposition has kept us mired in mediocrity.

last yr we were a bottom two side the yr before that we were and the yr before that and the yr before that etc etc .its time after 26yrs of doing one thing to do the other. bloody hell reality people we are crap looking forward we have the worst list in the comp and yet the vast majority are in denial of this simple fact.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Harry said:
Brisbane and Sydney have had salary cap and rookie list advantages over the rest of the comp for many years. Also most of Brisbanes players were recruited before 1995 when the draft wasn't as scrutinised and disected as it is now. The draft is more important now than it was say 10 years ago as the chances the better players will slip late into the draft are significantly less.

As for Geelong - there are many posts in this thread explaining why we shouldn't compare ourselves to Geelong. Scroll through and have a read in your spare time.
well said harold short and succinct.

brisbane has been done lynch was there well before the fitzroy merge. 18 of the 22 players who won the gf in 2001 were there before matthews. there was still 15 when they lost in 2004. what does this say about matthews.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

St Kilda I believe were the first club to really understand the bottoming out process I think.
They traded Hall, Everitt etc and reaped the rewards of being at the bottom. I know some people will still say they are flagless but they have been in the hunt every year. With some luck they could easily have won one.

It is the same with WC. Ask yourself why is Whoosha under no pressure at all. He knows what he is doing. Winning games is the worst thing we can do ATM. Play the kids, get the top picks and we will have a chance.

If people actually think making our usual run at the end of the season and finishing in or around ninth is better than winning the spoon - then we will be here forever.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

one more thing since 1986 how many clubs have been above us played some finals footy at least then slipped below us and then gone past us again some have done it several times has anyone stopped to ask themselves why theres a few answers and all are relevant to this debate.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Matiger said:
St Kilda I believe were the first club to really understand the bottoming out process I think.
They traded Hall, Everitt etc and reaped the rewards of being at the bottom. I know some people will still say they are flagless but they have been in the hunt every year. With some luck they could easily have won one.

It is the same with WC. Ask yourself why is Whoosha under no pressure at all. He knows what he is doing. Winning games is the worst thing we can do ATM. Play the kids, get the top picks and we will have a chance.

If people actually think making our usual run at the end of the season and finishing in or around ninth is better than winning the spoon - then we will be here forever.
we have done exactly that and been here forever lets go beat up on melb it means we are on the way. bloody hell how many times do we have to keep making the same mistakes over and over.

the usual reply will be trotted out that being it hasnt won stkilda a premiership how narrow minded are people prepared to become.

theres stacks of evidence that suggests while down you had damn well better make sure you get the best talent because if you dont other sides will and go past you and this is exactly what has happened since the inception of the draft.hence we cant get past 9th and thopse sides that do it properly go past us because of greater depth and quality.
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Harry and Claw, we already have the nucleus of a good team with many kids still to show their wares.
Are you both trying to say that we have nothing to work with?
Talk about pessimists...

In all honesty is getting 1 more speculative high draft pick going to make a world of difference, with the added fallout of that warm fuzzy feeling of losing most games just to be 'rewarded' (now that's a paradox)?
 
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

the claw said:
geelong well they have been done to death it has been pointed out by many that their team has been mainly built on the back of 3 drafts yrs when they had low finishes.


& herein lies the answer.


How many top 3 selections did Geelong have in these 3 years you speak of?


Or did Geelong, as those of us anti-losing suggest .... Utilise the entire draft and draft quality right throughout with their selections?


If Richmond get the identification & then development process right ... We don't need to tank to rise.


You want to take the cheap, quick, loser way out.