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The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)
- Thread starter AstuteTiger
- Start date
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
Geelong was 11th after round 11, and finished with 6 wins, 4 losses and a draw to finish 10th and selected J.Selwood without tanking.
We gave away pick 8 and finished with pick 11 to get J. Reiwoldt.
Tigerbob said:
Geelong was 11th after round 11, and finished with 6 wins, 4 losses and a draw to finish 10th and selected J.Selwood without tanking.
We gave away pick 8 and finished with pick 11 to get J. Reiwoldt.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
Axle Foley's another hack, he was also a rookie.
Ask those who were in recruiting at the time. A certain G Ablett jnr was no top ten pick, possibly not even a first rounder at under 18 level.
If clubs are willing to roll over time and time again and just cop the easy option you can fill the list with early picks. They'll learn to cruize for their entire career.
Dean Cox must be a dud then, he was a rookie.Harry said:
Axle Foley's another hack, he was also a rookie.
Ask those who were in recruiting at the time. A certain G Ablett jnr was no top ten pick, possibly not even a first rounder at under 18 level.
If clubs are willing to roll over time and time again and just cop the easy option you can fill the list with early picks. They'll learn to cruize for their entire career.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
Just out of last night.
Asked both Francis & Richard this question privately.
If a team wins less than 5 games in both 2009 & 2010, does it get the priority choice in 2010 before GC17 get their picks?
The Answer,
Wait for it,
The AFL haven't decided yet.
Talking about a "rigged" competition. They make their own rules up as they go along. :cutelaugh
Just out of last night.
Asked both Francis & Richard this question privately.
If a team wins less than 5 games in both 2009 & 2010, does it get the priority choice in 2010 before GC17 get their picks?
The Answer,
Wait for it,
The AFL haven't decided yet.
Talking about a "rigged" competition. They make their own rules up as they go along. :cutelaugh
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
they clearly thought they had a top 4 side and they were right.
in the second half of the yr they defeated top 8 sides in freo 3rd. wb 8th. sydney r/u melb 7th they also had wins against stkilda 6th the top 8 was decided upon by about rnd 16 17 that yr. they had a 7 point loss to wce 1st. 6 point loss to melb7th. 1 point loss wb 8th. their problem was dropping games they shouldnt have.they were good against all sides bar collingwood and adelaide who both gave them a shellacking.
they were easily the best side out of the 8 and were clearly a better side that yr than freo melb stkilda and the wb. no wonder they had a review it was clear they were underperformers unlike us who are clearly crap.
one thing for sure though their finishing 10th in 06 clearly helped them and their list in 07 you could argue it got them the mising piece in the premiership puzzle.
richmond well we traded out of the top 10 to pick 13. no one can say the rabble footy club has embraced ever, the notion of low finishes to enhance the list. they are always to busy trading away early picks or downsizing them in an effort to take a short cut.never any short term pain for the long term good.
if wallace had done the right thing in 05 we would have had pick 1 and pick 4 thru 7. picks around 22 38 54. yep what could have been is what needs to be asked.05 a yr that should have seen nothing but kids played and the club in tank mode not doing it cost us enormously.it cost murphy and one of selwood ryder who i believe we were keen on it cost us muston sheesh and people still want to win games against poor teams and finish 9th.
we havent bottomed out and look where we are anyway. we have wasted 5 yrs and it will take another 5 to get to where we should be now, thats if we get it right. i have always said when at the bottom of the heap and in full on rebuild mode ( which we bloody should be) its not about winning its about maximising your picks.
finally can anyone point out to me those wins like geelong had in 06 over the entire last 4.5 seasons. i have said this before you can count almost on one hand the amount of wins we have had against eventual top 8 sides. until we get the cattle this trend will no doubt continue.
cattle first winning culture takes care of itself.
ya all know its funny here we are in 09 and im still having virtually the same sort of debates i had way back in 03 how many times do we have to go down the meaningless win path before ferals say enough.
sheesh geelong came of two very good seasons in 04 and 05. of course they didnt tank. in 06 the fact they didnt make finals very nearly cost thompson his job and bought on a review of their footy dept to work out where it went wrong.pharace said:
they clearly thought they had a top 4 side and they were right.
in the second half of the yr they defeated top 8 sides in freo 3rd. wb 8th. sydney r/u melb 7th they also had wins against stkilda 6th the top 8 was decided upon by about rnd 16 17 that yr. they had a 7 point loss to wce 1st. 6 point loss to melb7th. 1 point loss wb 8th. their problem was dropping games they shouldnt have.they were good against all sides bar collingwood and adelaide who both gave them a shellacking.
they were easily the best side out of the 8 and were clearly a better side that yr than freo melb stkilda and the wb. no wonder they had a review it was clear they were underperformers unlike us who are clearly crap.
one thing for sure though their finishing 10th in 06 clearly helped them and their list in 07 you could argue it got them the mising piece in the premiership puzzle.
richmond well we traded out of the top 10 to pick 13. no one can say the rabble footy club has embraced ever, the notion of low finishes to enhance the list. they are always to busy trading away early picks or downsizing them in an effort to take a short cut.never any short term pain for the long term good.
if wallace had done the right thing in 05 we would have had pick 1 and pick 4 thru 7. picks around 22 38 54. yep what could have been is what needs to be asked.05 a yr that should have seen nothing but kids played and the club in tank mode not doing it cost us enormously.it cost murphy and one of selwood ryder who i believe we were keen on it cost us muston sheesh and people still want to win games against poor teams and finish 9th.
we havent bottomed out and look where we are anyway. we have wasted 5 yrs and it will take another 5 to get to where we should be now, thats if we get it right. i have always said when at the bottom of the heap and in full on rebuild mode ( which we bloody should be) its not about winning its about maximising your picks.
finally can anyone point out to me those wins like geelong had in 06 over the entire last 4.5 seasons. i have said this before you can count almost on one hand the amount of wins we have had against eventual top 8 sides. until we get the cattle this trend will no doubt continue.
cattle first winning culture takes care of itself.
ya all know its funny here we are in 09 and im still having virtually the same sort of debates i had way back in 03 how many times do we have to go down the meaningless win path before ferals say enough.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
Don;t think there are too many people doubting your proposed method would work but it is akin to running slow in early races to be able to start off a shorter handicap. It happens of course but it doesn;t make it right.
Agree with others who advocate the AFL making the first 8 picks a lottery (priority picks aside). The sooner that happens, the sooner these discussions among madcapped supporters and whomever else
can stop.
Don;t think there are too many people doubting your proposed method would work but it is akin to running slow in early races to be able to start off a shorter handicap. It happens of course but it doesn;t make it right.
Agree with others who advocate the AFL making the first 8 picks a lottery (priority picks aside). The sooner that happens, the sooner these discussions among madcapped supporters and whomever else
can stop.Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
That is big news on the AFL yet to decide on the PP in 2010/11. But really they continue to make rules on the run so it does not surprise at all.
That is big news on the AFL yet to decide on the PP in 2010/11. But really they continue to make rules on the run so it does not surprise at all.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
most would agree that perhaps this yr 6 or 7 wins is a possibility realistically you only need tank 3 games.
this week its stkilda we go all out for the win knowing full well we are unlikely to win it.
come rnd 16 against north some critical players may be a bit sore and are rested we decide we are playing a lot of kids this week as we need to have a look at them after all finals are out of the question.
how hard is it. all it takes is a realisation of exactly where your list is at. atm ours is bottom 3. its not likely to improve much on that position.to top it all of there is zero chance of finals. and the killer punch is we will remain bottom 3 unless we rebuild.
sheesh in 05 we won just 10 games and finished 12th and that was trying to win while playing lots of older players. the way i see it you would only have to tank for 6 games not an entire season. tanking would easily have been achieved by getting games into the kids.Disco08 said:
most would agree that perhaps this yr 6 or 7 wins is a possibility realistically you only need tank 3 games.
this week its stkilda we go all out for the win knowing full well we are unlikely to win it.
come rnd 16 against north some critical players may be a bit sore and are rested we decide we are playing a lot of kids this week as we need to have a look at them after all finals are out of the question.
how hard is it. all it takes is a realisation of exactly where your list is at. atm ours is bottom 3. its not likely to improve much on that position.to top it all of there is zero chance of finals. and the killer punch is we will remain bottom 3 unless we rebuild.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
We'd just sacked a coach who was roundly critisized by all and sundry. Wallet was heralded as a great pick up by most and the team was 8 and 2 after 10 rounds. How exactly should we have engineered the tank that year IYO?
As I said, I agree tanking after you've made a start like ours this year (or last year, or 06) is the prudent thing to do given the current system. I just can't see how you can say we should have tanked in 2005.
the claw said:
We'd just sacked a coach who was roundly critisized by all and sundry. Wallet was heralded as a great pick up by most and the team was 8 and 2 after 10 rounds. How exactly should we have engineered the tank that year IYO?
As I said, I agree tanking after you've made a start like ours this year (or last year, or 06) is the prudent thing to do given the current system. I just can't see how you can say we should have tanked in 2005.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
RUBBISH.
Another 'armchair expert' opinion...
How well will your theory hold up if these star 'cattle' we reap from a consistant losing mindset start to re-condition themselves accordingly - that is lose the fire in the belly to win every contest!!!
Seriously, have you 'tank' theorists ever played the game?
the claw said:
RUBBISH.
Another 'armchair expert' opinion...
How well will your theory hold up if these star 'cattle' we reap from a consistant losing mindset start to re-condition themselves accordingly - that is lose the fire in the belly to win every contest!!!
Seriously, have you 'tank' theorists ever played the game?
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
Agree Ocker, Harry is a coach potato, whom having never played the game before, could not possibly understand what culture at a footy club really means. Everyone who has played the game plays to win. Rediculous to think losing games would be good for the club, the players or the supporters. Unless you are an armchair expert who has never played a game of footy in their life.Ocker said:
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
No, that was Spud Frawley
Opulentus Tigris said:
No, that was Spud Frawley
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
22 players played 10 games or more. brown was one and then got injured. jackson got 10 tambling 12 and deledio played 22 that was it as far as kids went the next least played out of the 22 most played was stafford with 15. wallace played in the main the long term underachievers yet managed just 2 wins against eventual top 8 sides and got belted the second half of the season.
as you know ive long been an advocate of playing as many kids as possible and offloading the long term underperformers as quickly as possible. if this approach was adopted at the end of 04 we would have continued to bottom out. wallace was allowed to chase meaningless wins when it was clear to a blind man we didnt have the cattle.
our bottoming out period should have been 04 05 06 and perhaps 07. sheesh after persevering with older players in 02 14th 03 13th and 04 16th you would have thought it was patently clear to miller that we had to start from scratch and clean out the older players asap but no miller like wallace was all talk and no substance. we now have to go thru a bottoming out period to aquire the badly needed quality or the cream on the top if you like.
in fairness to wallace the rebuild should have begun in 02 i said so at the time and i was appalled at the recruiting of johnson and brown it showed clearly that the club and miller had no idea about the list or how to go about fixing it.but wallace didnt do himself any favours continuing on with the old brigade how much evidence did he need to see where the list was at.
we have had 23 yrs of meaningless wins i think it time we tried the other way just for a little while.the pro late winners have had their way for long enough i would have thought.time to do something different.
as i said wallace continued on with older players in 05 if younger players were given priority i have no doubt we would not have won as many games as we did. the damage was done before the season started. and yeah the pps were gone by rnd 7 so i will concede to you it was pretty hard to tank in 05 after the start we had.even then i would still have prioritised playing as many kids as possible. what a shambles the club was in or still are there was no long term planning just get as many wins as possible to please the ferals stuff the system we have to operate under short term gain who cares about the long term.Disco08 said:
22 players played 10 games or more. brown was one and then got injured. jackson got 10 tambling 12 and deledio played 22 that was it as far as kids went the next least played out of the 22 most played was stafford with 15. wallace played in the main the long term underachievers yet managed just 2 wins against eventual top 8 sides and got belted the second half of the season.
as you know ive long been an advocate of playing as many kids as possible and offloading the long term underperformers as quickly as possible. if this approach was adopted at the end of 04 we would have continued to bottom out. wallace was allowed to chase meaningless wins when it was clear to a blind man we didnt have the cattle.
our bottoming out period should have been 04 05 06 and perhaps 07. sheesh after persevering with older players in 02 14th 03 13th and 04 16th you would have thought it was patently clear to miller that we had to start from scratch and clean out the older players asap but no miller like wallace was all talk and no substance. we now have to go thru a bottoming out period to aquire the badly needed quality or the cream on the top if you like.
in fairness to wallace the rebuild should have begun in 02 i said so at the time and i was appalled at the recruiting of johnson and brown it showed clearly that the club and miller had no idea about the list or how to go about fixing it.but wallace didnt do himself any favours continuing on with the old brigade how much evidence did he need to see where the list was at.
we have had 23 yrs of meaningless wins i think it time we tried the other way just for a little while.the pro late winners have had their way for long enough i would have thought.time to do something different.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
oh wallace came in and had a free reign. if he had said kids are the priority and he thinks we will be lucky to win more than a handful of games people would have applauded him. instead we got spin.Disco08 said:
