shaun hampson threads [merged]

[CarnTheTiges]

It was mentioned in the article you posted.

"This year, he wins a hitout-to-advantage at 20.7 per cent of ruck contests he attends, which is ranked second only to Fremantle’s Aaron Sandilands, who achieves that feat at 21.4 per cent."

Shhhhh. Don't let facts get in the way of a good factless rant, Bully.

 

[Hugo]

Shhhhh. Don't let facts get in the way of a good factless rant, Bully.

I don't think too many are disputing his ruck work. It's the rest of his game that appears limited.

Those "facts" mean he averages 7 HTA a game. Less than 2 per quarter.

Vickery had some pretty useful HTA stats in his past years IIRC. And took marks, kicked goals. I think we need to throw him in there.

 

[Scoop]

You're comparing apples with oranges here, McEvoy is noted for his work around the ground not for his tap work. If you don't place a premium on taps to advantage then McEvoy is your man but as far as Hampson's marking ability is concerned, I think many here are placing way too much emphasis on a couple of quiet matches. It's almost as though some are not expecting him to take another mark for the rest of the season. We got completely outclassed by Hawthorn on many levels, singling out one player when the whole team were poor is scapegoating IMO, let's just wait and see how he goes over the next couple of matches.

But you mentioned McEvoys 2013 to justify Hampson's 2014. Can't pick and choose.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

I don't think too many are disputing his ruck work. It's the rest of his game that appears limited.

Those "facts" mean he averages 7 HTA a game. Less than 2 per quarter.

Vickery had some pretty useful HTA stats in his past years IIRC. And took marks, kicked goals. I think we need to throw him in there.

Whether it's 7 a game or less than 2 a quarter the fact remains that this ranks him 2nd in the league for the state. I dispute that people aren't saying he can't ruck, they're actually saying he can't play at all and the good VFL ruck man Orren Stephenson would be a better option.

 

[bullus_hit]

So he is averaging 35 hit outs of which 21% go to adv. So about 7 per game.

Stephenson averages 19 Hitouts of which say 15% go to adv - about 3 per game. And he offers little more around the ground than Hampson.

Would a Vickery/Griffiths combo be that much worse?

I understand that Hampson is a better ruckman and would possibly offer better resistance to being dominated by the opposition ruckman but is 2 HTA per quarter enough when you have never really offered much else?

Once again, we're hanging him out to dry for 1 bad match. His performance against Brisbane saw him achieve a personal best of 52 hit outs, that's roughly 10 occasions where gave our mids first use, as good as a contested possession if you want to break it down.

Against Gold Coast he had 13 dispoals, 3 marks, 2 tackles & 37 hit outs. Good game.

Against Carlton he had 14 disposals, 2 marks, 3 tackles & 26 hit outs. Good game.

He didn't do enough against Collingwood or Hawthorn, but who did? Like I said earlier, the guy is 5 games into his career at Richmond and already people are labeling him worse than Graham & Stephenson. He's never rucked full time in his life and he comes with an elite skill, why are people so against giving him a decent shot? Or is it that they expect a Nic Naitanui for pick 32?

 

[Mr Brightside]

Once again, we're hanging him out to dry for 1 bad match. His performance against Brisbane saw him achieve a personal best of 52 hit outs, that's roughly 10 occasions where gave our mids first use, as good as a contested possession if you want to break it down.

Against Gold Coast he had 13 dispoals, 3 marks, 2 tackles & 37 hit outs. Good game.

Against Carlton he had 14 disposals, 2 marks, 3 tackles & 26 hit outs. Good game.

He didn't do enough against Collingwood or Hawthorn, but who did? Like I said earlier, the guy is 5 games into his career at Richmond and already people are labeling him worse than Graham & Stephenson. He's never rucked full time in his life and he comes with an elite skill, why are people so against giving him a decent shot? Or is it that they expect a Nic Naitanui for pick 32?

Some good points Bully, however I'd rather see him work on his weakness at VFL an see if he can simply learn to mark and handle the ball better, plenty of game time against weaker opponents an build confidence, yep I know his played a lot of VFL, but he hasn't spent a lot of time with Ladey and Maric yet, plus rather have a look at Elton an see if we can come up with a funky new wave ruck combo with Grifeltonickery

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Some good points Bully, however I'd rather see him work on his weakness at VFL an see if he can simply learn to mark and handle the ball better, plenty of game time against weaker opponents an build confidence, yep I know his played a lot of VFL, but he hasn't spent a lot of time with Ladey and Maric yet, plus rather have a look at Elton an see if we can come up with a funky new wave ruck combo with Grifeltonickery

If Maric was fit this could be an option, but he's not and the alternative as they have already shown is Stephenson.

 

[TigerForce]

Some good points Bully, however I'd rather see him work on his weakness at VFL an see if he can simply learn to mark and handle the ball better, plenty of game time against weaker opponents an build confidence, yep I know his played a lot of VFL, but he hasn't spent a lot of time with Ladey and Maric yet, plus rather have a look at Elton an see if we can come up with a funky new wave ruck combo with Grifeltonickery

Good idea CC. Get rid of the dinosaurs and copying other coaches. Let's start 'creating' something for once.

 

[Hugo]

Once again, we're hanging him out to dry for 1 bad match. His performance against Brisbane saw him achieve a personal best of 52 hit outs, that's roughly 10 occasions where gave our mids first use, as good as a contested possession if you want to break it down.

Against Gold Coast he had 13 dispoals, 3 marks, 2 tackles & 37 hit outs. Good game.

Against Carlton he had 14 disposals, 2 marks, 3 tackles & 26 hit outs. Good game.

He didn't do enough against Collingwood or Hawthorn, but who did? Like I said earlier, the guy is 5 games into his career at Richmond and already people are labeling him worse than Graham & Stephenson. He's never rucked full time in his life and he comes with an elite skill, why are people so against giving him a decent shot? Or is it that they expect a Nic Naitanui for pick 32?

Bris were missing their No. 1 ruckman bully. And I reckon we would have won regardless who played in the ruck. Yes he had a good game.

I understand your point that he is "young" in terms of the position (he is actually older than McEvoy & Jacobs) and don't agree with some of the mindless bagging but it may get to the point that we need to consider Vickery as first ruck IMO. Or even Elton as suggested below.

Geelong do have a good ruck combo so I doubt Hampson will be dropped this week. Hopefully he can show us a little more around the ground.

 

[bullus_hit]

But you mentioned McEvoys 2013 to justify Hampson's 2014. Can't pick and choose.

I'm not sure I'm justifying anything, merely stating that McEvoy's season was so poor that St Kilda chose to give him the flick. Anyone who rated his season beyond round 8 obviously didn't see too many St Kilda matches. Hampson has played 5 matches and performed well in 3, if he puts in another few shockers then he should be demoted. But if you're suggesting he should be demoted on the back of 1 bad performance then that should apply 90% of the team, including our supposed A listers.

Some good points Bully, however I'd rather see him work on his weakness at VFL an see if he can simply learn to mark and handle the ball better, plenty of game time against weaker opponents an build confidence, yep I know his played a lot of VFL, but he hasn't spent a lot of time with Ladey and Maric yet, plus rather have a look at Elton an see if we can come up with a funky new wave ruck combo with Grifeltonickery

He should go back when Maric is ready, our season isn't dead and buried yet so the experimentation can wait a few weeks. Hampson has an excellent opportunity to capitalise on Geelong's weakened ruck division this week, he then gets a week off & hopefully Maric returns. The marking issue is largely a confidence thing from my perspective, I've seen enough of his 2012 highlights to know that he's capable enough when his tail is up.

 

[Scoop]

I'm not sure I'm justifying anything, merely stating that McEvoy's season was so poor that St Kilda chose to give him the flick.

That's a stretch, St Kilda went full rebuild and got Shane Savage & Luke Dunstan for him and closed out the Longer deal.

Win , Win. Hardly flicking. Yes he had a sub standard year but there was genuine shock when the trade happened.

No flicking. But I would take McEvoy 2013 ahead of Hampson 2014.

 

[bullus_hit]

That's a stretch, St Kilda went full rebuild and got Shane Savage & Luke Dunstan for him and closed out the Longer deal.

Win , Win. Hardly . Yes he had a sub standard year but there was genuine shock when the trade happened.

No . But I would take McEvoy 2013 ahead of Hampson 2014.

So you'd be happy with 12-15 hit outs a match with about a 12% tap to advantage ratio?

In any case, I think the crocodile tears over missing out on McEvoy is just a severe case revisionism. There's absolutely no way we could have clinched the deal unless we offered up our first round pick. We did not and still don't have any trade bait, so it was Hampson or nothing. All the prospective rucks went earlier than pick 32 as well, Apeness & Lobbe were gone and only Nankervis remained, a player who is incidentally still behind Derickx of all people.

 

[TigerMasochist]

If the hit out stats are similar to half the other official numbers collected during a game, then I can think of a better use for all the paper they're scribbling all these stats on.
Thirty or forty hit outs per game, does that mean he touches it first? Do they only count the hit outs to advantage as the ones we win a clearance from or simply the one that falls in the general direction of one of our players, that's an advantage to us no matter how limited. Why do they never give the hit out stats that go directly down an opponents throat for them to clear, should probably rate it as a clanger if our ruckman has been the one to get first hand on the ball and then steers it to the opposition instaed of a team mate.

Hamster gives very little in the general scrimmages around the ruck contest, he doesn't physically impose himself onto the opposition players, or break packs n clear a path for our mids at the foot of the ruck contest.
He struggles to mark n rarely even tries in a contested situation, preferring to try and ruck the ball down.
His linking play, receiving n distributing is fumbly, kicking n hand balling are mediocre.

He's far from being on his own at plenty of fairly mediocre footy at the moment, the whole team is struggling to play even halfway decent footy. Not ready to bin the Hamster on just half a dozen games, but geez I'd like at least a bit of decent impact from two metres n a 100 kegs of mature player. Young Griffinator is playing better footy than him n coming from a lot further back in the pack.

 

[tigertim]

If the hit out stats are similar to half the other official numbers collected during a game, then I can think of a better use for all the paper they're scribbling all these stats on.
Thirty or forty hit outs per game, does that mean he touches it first? Do they only count the hit outs to advantage as the ones we win a clearance from or simply the one that falls in the general direction of one of our players, that's an advantage to us no matter how limited. Why do they never give the hit out stats that go directly down an opponents throat for them to clear, should probably rate it as a clanger if our ruckman has been the one to get first hand on the ball and then steers it to the opposition instaed of a team mate.

Hamster gives very little in the general scrimmages around the ruck contest, he doesn't physically impose himself onto the opposition players, or break packs n clear a path for our mids at the foot of the ruck contest.
He struggles to mark n rarely even tries in a contested situation, preferring to try and ruck the ball down.
His linking play, receiving n distributing is fumbly, kicking n hand balling are mediocre.

He's far from being on his own at plenty of fairly mediocre footy at the moment, the whole team is struggling to play even halfway decent footy. Not ready to bin the Hamster on just half a dozen games, but geez I'd like at least a bit of decent impact from two metres n a 100 kegs of mature player. Young Griffinator is playing better footy than him n coming from a lot further back in the pack.

The HOTA definition is (according to champion data) "a hit out that reaches an intended teammate". They actually do keep a stat on hit outs that go to the opposition: "hit out sharked" but I've never seen this stat published anywhere.

 

[TigerMasochist]

The HOTA definition is (according to champion data) "a hit out that reaches an intended teammate".

Yep falls in the general area of a teammate, as I thought. Hit out aint sharked if the ruckman rams it down an opponents throat, should be a clanger.

 

[Bullarto Tiger]

Hamster gives very little in the general scrimmages around the ruck contest, he doesn't physically impose himself onto the opposition players, or break packs n clear a path for our mids at the foot of the ruck contest.
He struggles to mark n rarely even tries in a contested situation, preferring to try and ruck the ball down.
His linking play, receiving n distributing is fumbly, kicking n hand balling are mediocre.

These are the concerns I also hold, TM.
The Tigers require a #1 ruckman, which Hampson is currently, to be a more dominant around-the-ground force.
It's all well and good to get first hand on the footy at ruck contests, and yes that is important, but if that's the only string to Hampson's bow then he becomes a rather one-dimensional option.
On Maric's eventual return I can't see Hampson being some sort of revelation resting up forward.
Will the Tigers be able to accommodate him as a second ruck when he seems limited in providing an alternative option when not rucking? Or will the Tigers just use him off the pine (which possibly defeats the purpose of recruiting him)?

 

[tigerjoe12]

Hampson is simply insurance for Maric getting injured (ie now)or giving him the occasional rest throughout the season...

Trading our second round pick seemed to be more a reflection of the recruiting team's opinion of what would be available at that pick as opposed to planning on Hampson being an integral part of the starting 22

He's a decent tap ruckman but offers little else. Once Maric comes back it will be Maric/Griffiths rotating through the ruck with Vickery having the occasional stint if he can ever get his act together

As much has Hampson hasn't been great, he's a far superior option to the big O

 

[Bullarto Tiger]

Hampson is simply insurance for Maric getting injured (ie now)or giving him the occasional rest throughout the season...

Trading our second round pick seemed to be more a reflection of the recruiting team's opinion of what would be available at that pick as opposed to planning on Hampson being an integral part of the starting 22

He's a decent tap ruckman but offers little else. Once Maric comes back it will be Maric/Griffiths rotating through the ruck with Vickery having the occasional stint if he can ever get his act together

As much has Hampson hasn't been great, he's a far superior option to the big O

Agree with you, Joe, on all counts.

 

[bullus_hit]

Hampson is simply insurance for Maric getting injured (ie now)or giving him the occasional rest throughout the season...

Trading our second round pick seemed to be more a reflection of the recruiting team's opinion of what would be available at that pick as opposed to planning on Hampson being an integral part of the starting 22

He's a decent tap ruckman but offers little else. Once Maric comes back it will be Maric/Griffiths rotating through the ruck with Vickery having the occasional stint if he can ever get his act together

As much has Hampson hasn't been great, he's a far superior option to the big O

Too much logic & reasoning there Joe, the fact that Derickx the spud is getting games for Sydney just goes to show how little there was available at our second pick. I would have loved the Great Ape who was picked up by Freo, reckon he's a potential A-grader, but he went very early and I think FJ & Blair knew all too well he would have been off the table.

Just for those who are questiong our decision to pick up an able bodied ruckman, I'm wondering what other alternatives there were? It was no secret to all and sundry that I was advocating Grundy last year and now the chickens have come home to roost. Nothing against Flossy because he's a guaranteed 200 gamer but on a needs basis, I'm not so sure he was exactly the type that we were screaming out for.

As for Hampson, he's a required player and will at least provide some decent back-up for the Mullet Man. Whether they can play together is another question but for now that's a moot point.

 

[tigerjoe12]

Too much logic & reasoning there Joe, the fact that Derickx the spud is getting games for Sydney just goes to show how little there was available at our second pick. I would have loved the Great Ape who was picked up by Freo, reckon he's a potential A-grader, but he went very early and I think FJ & Blair knew all too well he would have been off the table.

Just for those who are questiong our decision to pick up an able bodied ruckman, I'm wondering what other alternatives there were? It was no secret to all and sundry that I was advocating Grundy last year and now the chickens have come home to roost. Nothing against Flossy because he's a guaranteed 200 gamer but on a needs basis, I'm not so sure he was exactly the type that we were screaming out for.

As for Hampson, he's a required player and will at least provide some decent back-up for the Mullet Man. Whether they can play together is another question but for now that's a moot point.

Agree & would love Grundy at the club, but a big fan of Flossy as well...

I think the club had hoped that in 3-4 years, once Maric's body is shot, a bloke by the name of Vickery will have filled out properly through the body & he may be able to start imposing himself as a no.1 ruckman. A worrying thought

Either that, or they have plans on picking up a junior at the end of this year or next.

The problem with the sub-rule etc. is that unless you have two freak ruckman. ie. Cox & Naitanui, it's hard for a club to have more than one genuine no. 1 ruck option in the starting 22 so the strategy seems to often be have a star no. 1, followed by a versatile or average no. 2 & a couple of junior developers as well as an insurance policy. The other problem is that it often takes 3-5 years to work out if a developing ruck is going to be good or a spud so when it doesn't work (Graham, Browne, Putt etc etc) years have often gone to waste & you start again from scratch or are forced to trade