The Red Baron and I don't always agree leon however on this we do... Points conceded is team related not just last line..
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shaun hampson threads [merged]
- Thread starter Ian4
- Start date
Bill James said:
I don't claim to be any stats guru, but you equate possessions won with midfield performance? Seriously? Even though disposals can be from anywhere on the field including from HB receives or chip-pass marks?
We came 16th in the AFL for clearances [Footywire], only ahead of the Dopers and Suns. Although only six teams averaged higher for HOs (and Roos very close to us) and I think Hampson came 5th overall individually. At stoppages, our average only ahead of 2 teams: Suns and Saints. Our CC average was 12th in the AFL; slightly higher where your knock ruckman is more involved. What's more, we were 17th for F50s - so even when we won the ball, we were damn useless at attacking with it! So Hampson would explain that too, right?
Yet, an interesting one is that we actually came first in the AFL for least Opponent Hitouts Per Game.
See my prior reply to Lamby. If it was that simple, one player so much at fault, should be simple to correct in 2107. However, the club saw the desperate need to bolster the list with 4 mids through trading and draft - Presto, Caddy, Bolton and Graham plus one ruck - Nank.
Anyone can believe what they want; I don't think it's that simple to explain 2016 myself.
Tigertough1974 said:
I regard our defence as the whole back 6 (or 7), not just the last line. But it's really hard to claim our defence had a great year, while happy to blame the whole team performance for putting then under constant pressure as shown by our poor clearance/stoppage/F50 results. I note we were the worst in the AFL for 1% and we all know about how poor the tackling is.
Maybe another way to look at is - imagine if Rance was out for 6 games with a LTI. (Would be interesting to check the stats for our defence when he was out for the Watts suspension).
leon said:
Damning numbers on the impact (or lack of) from Hampsons hitouts leysy would have thought.
Irrespective of who's fault it was (midfield not good enough or Hampson directing them poorly) it's irrefutable that Hampson's hitouts had little postive impact on our end result.
If that continues there is very little point playing him considering he gives next to nothing anywhere else. Nank or Griff to get the gig.
leon said:
Understand what your saying, defense is a term used for back 6, however this in team sports isn't always a direct correlation to points scored against...
Back onto the Hammer - Ivan was shot so we had to use him in 2016 with Griffs support, situation is different now, even if Nanners is still developing IMO he is already more valuable than a truly awful footballer in shuan the sheep
I look at it in pretty simplistic way really
Hampson gets a good number of taps, But how effective are they in my opinion not great - just average number
But he offers us nothing around the ground or defensively, For me i would much rather have a Ruckman that can play foward and tackle and contribute around the ground
Personally i wouldnt have him on the list and would rather play Nankervis/Griffiths for Rnd 1
We should have delisted him and gotten an state league ruckman just for backup on $200k less and gave the extra to Dusty
Hampson gets a good number of taps, But how effective are they in my opinion not great - just average number
But he offers us nothing around the ground or defensively, For me i would much rather have a Ruckman that can play foward and tackle and contribute around the ground
Personally i wouldnt have him on the list and would rather play Nankervis/Griffiths for Rnd 1
We should have delisted him and gotten an state league ruckman just for backup on $200k less and gave the extra to Dusty
It will be interesting to see how we go with Vlastuin Caddy and Prestia in the middle at bounces this year!
The Man does Direct it well and we've got some boys to catch his Taps and move it on.
The centre bounce and ball ups are the game within the game!
The Man does Direct it well and we've got some boys to catch his Taps and move it on.
The centre bounce and ball ups are the game within the game!
UKTiger said:
No that was Yarran ... and will never give. Except was no gift. Gave up good draft picks for nix return. At least Hammer has played 35 games for RFC, with more to come probably. Getting close to a fair return for a late 2nd rounder.
Of course, haters just keep on hating or indulging in cheap, clichéd sarcasm.
So I think we can conclude, despite leon's constant drivel, that personal opinion backed by stats show that Hampson can certainly get hitouts, it's his strongest asset but around the ground as an extra midfield he is next to useless. There is conjecture around the effectiveness of his tap outs but I am willing to concede that it's possibly a combination of our midfield, game plan and training methods that maybe contributes to the poor result the Tigers have in that area. The argument that Leon often brings to the table is that no-one else on our list could have done better and therefore Hampson deserves to be first ruck. I don't think many are arguing that point, indeed he is probably the best we have right now, but it is really an indictment on our recruiting that our current ruck stocks are not up to scratch and it is an area we need to desperately improve. In summary, Hampson may have been relevant in a different era but in today's game to be playing effectively one midfielder down is a very big disadvantage. Hampson imo would be a suitable backup ruckman (insurance type player) but is not AFL quality as the game is played today.
leon said:
Read your own posts. You use a very aggressive, derogatory posting style. Your above post is again a perfect example. I am far from sensitive, I am far from upset. I happen to think though that people should respect others whether that be face to face or on a forum. Your posting style, whether you mean it or not, comes across very poorly. You accuse people of being sensitive, soft, evasive, of purposely providing false statistics, of being bias, not answering questions when being challenged, big noting themselves, ulterior motives...blah blah blah. It's all baloney. Try posting with out all those adjectives and I am sure you'll find people replying in kind. I, and I am sure most others would be very happy to reply, discuss, argue in a normal fashion. Maybe if you took the initial assumption that people are honest rather than crooked. I've found in life that most are honest. What reason to lie on a forum like this anyway?
As for Hampson, I've seen very few disagree with your assertion that Hampson was our best option in 2016. The assertion is that he is not good enough and we need to find better. If your only contention is whether Hampson was our best option for 2016 why the incessant posting and slamming of posters? Most would agree with you.
PS Happy New Year
Did it take you two weeks to think this up?tigerlove said:
Directly above in your first post, you state: "... despite leon's constant drivel ..." Not an 'aggressive, derogatory posting style' by any chance?
But, of course, you 'happen to think though that people should respect others.'
Then you go, "... blah blah blah. It's all baloney." I could get offended here. Get off your high horse, TL, you don't practice what you preach clearly. There's a name for that.
As for the final paragraph, I had responded to your earlier post where you provided loaded stats with biased interpretation, to attempt to convince everyone of your position. I, for one, disagreed and sought to expose these flimsy arguments. Mostly I simply dispute posts that are blatantly derogatory without much realistic evidence. Like yours. But good to see you now agree with my overall position.
I was a total supporter of the club's recruitment of Nankervis as our ruck depth is truly thin now after losing 3 talls. He offers something different: a few more HBs, but less than half the HOs, more tackles but H actually takes more marks. However, expect we'll play both allowing Griffiths to play almost entirely forward. The AFL curtailing of 3rd man up may well assist Hampson too.
On the Ivan dynamic of (was it 2013?), he didn't jump at the CBs. So he could keep his feet and block or gather at ground level to set up close-to-the-fall clearances. Carlton deployed in that final to tap the ball cleanly to space (away from Richmond's plan) and destroy the match. So that tactic was exposed.
Ivan's job was only to hit the elbow of the opposing ruck (don't be too literal - or nostalgic), bring it to the ground and he had to be the biggest mid at the fall. He did that really well. But it was one-dimensional and certain to be picked apart at a crucial time. It was picked apart after half time in that Carlton final. Warnock was useless for most of his career but he was the antidote to our CB set up after half time. Nine clearances to Bryce Gibbs.
We needed a counter to the usually lame Warnock threat. Just somebody who could touch the ball in the air. Somebody like Hampson. (But preferably better.)
We got Hampson. So, yeah. Nah. Not ideal.
2017 be an interesting year in the life of the Hamster career.
There's not doubt we're changing his role and we're changing our midfield set up. Hampervan improved markedly in 2016 but still wasn't there. Nankervis is a very raw prospect. I guess neither is a premiership ruckman as it stands. Not even a #2.
But sometimes when a team gets beat the gimp gets too much blame. Hampson has been that gimp on and off. He's not the core problem. Not to say he's not a weakness.
2017 will see new dynamics and through them we can observe just how much Hampson was the clearance blockage of 2016 and how much a lack of midfield clearance power was central.
Interesting times. (We live in them.)
Ivan's job was only to hit the elbow of the opposing ruck (don't be too literal - or nostalgic), bring it to the ground and he had to be the biggest mid at the fall. He did that really well. But it was one-dimensional and certain to be picked apart at a crucial time. It was picked apart after half time in that Carlton final. Warnock was useless for most of his career but he was the antidote to our CB set up after half time. Nine clearances to Bryce Gibbs.
We needed a counter to the usually lame Warnock threat. Just somebody who could touch the ball in the air. Somebody like Hampson. (But preferably better.)
We got Hampson. So, yeah. Nah. Not ideal.
2017 be an interesting year in the life of the Hamster career.
There's not doubt we're changing his role and we're changing our midfield set up. Hampervan improved markedly in 2016 but still wasn't there. Nankervis is a very raw prospect. I guess neither is a premiership ruckman as it stands. Not even a #2.
But sometimes when a team gets beat the gimp gets too much blame. Hampson has been that gimp on and off. He's not the core problem. Not to say he's not a weakness.
2017 will see new dynamics and through them we can observe just how much Hampson was the clearance blockage of 2016 and how much a lack of midfield clearance power was central.
Interesting times. (We live in them.)
Dyer'ere said:
Hampson may not be the core problem, but, this year, he was symptomatic of it. His weakness was seen as an acceptable loss in pursuit of a tactical puzzle piece.
The thing is, he was still a weakness. And was allowed to be in order to suit a single, rigid tactical pro forma.
The core problem was a lack of creativity and flexibility. We had a weakness. It would have been interesting to see if we could have turned that into a strength. We had footballers who could ruck, but no ruckman who could football.
We chose to play with weakness, and had players being instructed to go harder to make up for it.
If you're trying to open a can, and someone hands you a glass can opener, you can either grit your teeth and cut your hands to shreds, or go to the shed and see if another tool might do the job.
