shaun hampson threads [merged]

[leon]

Wrong thread? Or side-splitting humour? Can't stop laughing! How do you keeping coming up with them?

Try Dusty thread.

 

[Coburgtiger]

I'd say it was Hampson's best game for the year. Nice of you to admit it; showing some awareness at last. He clearly won the ruck contest against his much higher rated opponent. Check out Player Ratings for rucks - Leuenberger rated at 181, Hammer only 125. Unlike Goldstein, whom all the pundits rated as being beaten by Trengove. Goldy rated No.2 on ~592 pts; Trengove doesn't even appear on the ruck ratings! So the peerless ruck beaten by this.

So far I have just had to explain my previous post to you. Further, if Goldy is so much better, how could this happen? Where have all his indisputably superior (by your and Lamby's expert judgement) facets gone to? I would never claim Hammer is a better player, nor have. It was simply being proven to you that you and the haters gang over-rate the gap between H and G. You rave on about wonderful opposition players are on PRE, revelling in cheap-shot sarcasm and hilarious insults, disparage our players unmercifully. Go and review the threads for Hampson and Griffiths to remind yourself.
Thanks for the statistical comparisons. They, surprisingly to me, actually support my consistent viewpoint. Hammer is closer than even I thought. Clearly G has been a superior player, but the gap is less than I expected. The evidence is definitely that it is coming down this year too. On Player Ratings G has levelled out, H's is another sharply upward spike. So appreciate the support there.

Re disposals, clearly H is getting more ball and doing more with it. Improved HBs and CMs. He will never be a high Ds player, must get the ball off to others quickly. He is obviously coached to do this too; I have pointed out his smart HBs to Dusty et al before. I think Vickery has been trialed and found wanting as a ruck, but you've just missed all that! Amazing - ostrich-like; have you looked at his ruck-work (against Nicnat was a highlight!); looked at his thread? Not in the team, to the great relief of those on PRE. But you're still singing his praises as a ruckman? I have already covered the Griffiths point so many times; you keep missing it, obviously wasted on you. This game proved it again, you've still missed it. (Maybe try following some threads a lot more).

As for Bean, I stand by my comments on him - go check them out. He needs probably another two years to develop; a project player. He can barely compete with the serious rucks and big defenders of the AFL with that stick-like body, but like his skills. Reluctant to criticise him; however, when posters call for dropping H to instead play Griff and Bean as our rucks, it is so laughable I have to respond. They propose this, it deserves response.

My contention about Hampson has been totally consistent. We have none better for now; he has put in a very strong year; is mostly valuable for HOs, showing a lot of improvement. Try celebrating this, the positive, instead of reveling in slagging him continually. These are born out by trends over the year; not just one game. See above. As I keep saying, the haters also hate to admit they're wrong.

Thanks for the compliment about my lyrical spew. Thought 'undersized contortionist jellyfish' was a good attempt, but still erred more on the side of spew than lyrics. But keep trying.

Right. So you are using player ratings which suggest Hampson is inferior, to say that he is superior to someone who is rated more highly because he is rated less highly?

Surely you see the lack of logic in that?

As for Hampson being the best option, this now, as it had been all year, is completely short sighted.

Hampson is a poor footballer. He's playing about as well as he can. And it's pretty average. Whatever nonsense you spout about player ratings, Hampson will never be what Goldstein is or has been. Imagine putting Hampson and Goldstein in the same sentence to any non Richmond supporter.

There was an opportunity this year to play Griff as number 1 ruck, and TV as back up. This opportunity was not taken. Who knows what may have eventuated. The minimal improvement we've seen in Hampson may have been much greater in the other pair.

Unfortunately it's academic now, and we've put a year of development into a limited player who will not be at the club in two years time.

 

[lamb22]

Shorter Leon.

"I will use player ratings to show how Hampson is better than Goldstein. Hampson is rated no 461 in the AFL. Goldstein is rated no 7. See my logic?"

 

[lamb22]

Shorter Leon.

"I will use Port as an example of why hit outs are important. North had the better ruckman and Port creamed them. See my logic?"

 

[leon]

Right. So you are using player ratings which suggest Hampson is inferior, to say that he is superior to someone who is rated more highly because he is rated less highly?

Surely you see the lack of logic in that?

As for Hampson being the best option, this now, as it had been all year, is completely short sighted.

Hampson is a poor footballer. He's playing about as well as he can. And it's pretty average. Whatever nonsense you spout about player ratings, Hampson will never be what Goldstein is or has been. Imagine putting Hampson and Goldstein in the same sentence to any non Richmond supporter.

There was an opportunity this year to play Griff as number 1 ruck, and TV as back up. This opportunity was not taken. Who knows what may have eventuated. The minimal improvement we've seen in Hampson may have been much greater in the other pair.

Unfortunately it's academic now, and we've put a year of development into a limited player who will not be at the club in two years time.

So is distorting, or misrepresenting, or is it simply inability to comprehend my position, the only way for you to respond? I have never claimed H is superior to G. Read my post! - "I would never claim Hammer is a better player, nor have."
I'm not too sure on how PRs even work. Think Hampson is treated harshly; maybe due to not playing that many AFL games over the last few years. Some guy named Frampton I've never heard of appears as a ruck but not Trengove! Anyway, it's just another pointer.

Your sad inferiority complex is again reinforced by "Imagine putting Hampson and Goldstein in the same sentence to any non Richmond supporter." Sadly our deeply frustrating lack of AFL success leads supporters to this style of thinking. Prove again by the high hopes many on PRE had for Townsend and AMoore - they must be good, they're from another club (including myself). It's easy to get sucked in by this.

So, I'll make it simple for you, and there are signs you are seeing it: Goldy isn't so peerless; Hammer is far better than you credit.

Vickery has been tried plenty as a ruck, and has been found wanting. However, I challenge you if you still think this: if you wish to advocate this, go on this thread and TV's, and put it to the posters hereon, "drop H for TV". Let's see the feedback. Griff is a KPF and relief ruck. Do you think we needed him up forward yesterday? Did you compare his output there to Jack's? How did JR go? Does he need this kind of back-up? Hammer taking most of the ruck, allows Griff to spend much time forward. (footy 101)

A lot can happen over 2 years. It's great that we have a competitive ruckman for those years that gives us the space and time to find and bring along another ruckman via trade or high draft pick. H is only 28. Maric may be finished sadly, TV may be up for trade.

 

[leon]

Shorter Leon.

"I will use player ratings to show how Hampson is better than Goldstein. Hampson is rated no 461 in the AFL. Goldstein is rated no 7. See my logic?"

You two must be dumb and dumber. You cannot even read what I say!
I give up. I cannot get through to a simpleton - short enough for you.

 

[leon]

Shorter Leon.

"I will use Port as an example of why hit outs are important. North had the better ruckman and Port creamed them. See my logic?"

So genius, when and if Ryder and Lobbe are back 100% fit next year, they will not play them. They will keep rucking Trengove?
In the words of that awful woman, please explain.
On a serious note, this is the really interesting issue with ruck-work. It is more complex than your simplistic usage and needs deeper analysis and the weighing up of a whole range of variables. Also one you frequently contradict yourself any time it suits you e.g.

So who do you really rate and value - a Goldstein or a Trengove? Or just flipping both ways?

 

[jb03]

So genius, when and if Ryder and Lobbe are back 100% fit next year, they will not play them. They will keep rucking Trengove?
In the words of that awful woman, please explain.
On a serious note, this is the really interesting issue with ruck-work. It is more complex than your simplistic usage and needs deeper analysis and the weighing up of a whole range of variables. Also one you frequently contradict yourself any time it suits you e.g.

So who do you really rate and value - a Goldstein or a Trengove? Or just flipping both ways?

To be fair Lobbe had been dropped and was injured in the SANFL so they were preferring Trengove to him at that point.

 

[Bullarto Tiger]

Hopefully Hampson is RFC's back-up ruckman next season.

 

[leon]

Hopefully Hampson is RFC's back-up ruckman next season.

OK, Bullarto, but again probably selling him short. Even the Goldstein fans don't think he is going to be lured to RFC for 2017 from Norf! So where does this quality replacement ruck come from?

So my question to this line of arguing is: who is and where is this ruckman lurking. I have responded thus in detail many times, and have received very little back. Someone suggested Freo's Hannath or Clarke, maybe Swan's Nankervis, or GC's Nichols, Saint's Longer? I'm not certain any of them is better e.g. Hammer certainly beat Nichols decisively for HOs, although Nichols was probably better around the ground which is H's weakness. Overall, not clearly superior.

Totally agree we need to snag another ruck, assuming Maric may retire and TV be traded, but I'm just not convinced the above guys are definitely an upgrade. I much prefer Dyer's theory which he has advocated in detail further back on this thread - you can grab a promising young ruck high in the draft (even Goldy was Rd.3). Then you have time to develop them, build them up, raise them with same team-mates, know G/P from day 1 etc.

The key thing is; Hampson allows us the time to do this. If no-one can identify someone obtainable for not paying overs that is a certain upgrade. We still have Griffiths, the uncertain prospect of Soldo, and the Bean-Stalk for back-up.

 

[tigerlove]

On the off chance that a high draft ruck pick will turn into a gun, it takes a good 5 or 6 years before you know whether they will make it to any reasonable level. Not sure how having Hampson allows us time to do this. We haven't picked up any ruckman of this nature. I think history shows that the more successful method of premiership teams is to pay over the odds for a proven ruckman at the right time. Unless a ruckman is a clear standout in a draft and everyone is talking about them as such, I don't think picking ruckman high in the draft and hoping is the way to go.

I think Hapmson has proven over the last few weeks. Has taken some great grabs and been more involved. But we definitely need to upgrade in time for our nect tilt at finals (question is when will that be, we look to be on a downward path from here).

 

[Bullarto Tiger]

OK, Bullarto, but again probably selling him short. Even the Goldstein fans don't think he is going to be lured to RFC for 2017 from Norf! So where does this quality replacement ruck come from?

I don't disagree with you, Leon, about the difficulty in finding a quality replacement/upgrade on Hampson.
I am not savvy enough across the players in other teams so I don't profess to have the answer(s) and, as such, have very little idea as to who would be an ideal selection as the Tigers leading ruckman.
All I know, that is much as Hampson tries his best for the Tigers (and he has been doing OK these past few weeks ... has even surprised me on occasions) I just don't believe he is the answer in such a crucial role for premiership-contending teams.

 

[leon]

On the off chance that a high draft ruck pick will turn into a gun, it takes a good 5 or 6 years before you know whether they will make it to any reasonable level. Not sure how having Hampson allows us time to do this. We haven't picked up any ruckman of this nature. I think history shows that the more successful method of premiership teams is to pay over the odds for a proven ruckman at the right time. Unless a ruckman is a clear standout in a draft and everyone is talking about them as such, I don't think picking ruckman high in the draft and hoping is the way to go.

I think Hapmson has proven over the last few weeks. Has taken some great grabs and been more involved. But we definitely need to upgrade in time for our nect tilt at finals (question is when will that be, we look to be on a downward path from here).

I certainly want a big, strong, talented mid for our first rounder. If you're right, ok, maybe Billy Longer or someone? There's Soldo too: think the jury is still out, but if he is going to make it, has to make a move over the next year or two.

I'm more of a bright-sider though. Call it blind optimism, but I think we can rebound over the next two years faster than you, and even make finals 2018-19. We have young, maturing talent: Griffiths, Vlaustin, CEllis, Menadue, Castagna, Markov, Rioli with hopefully Drummond, CMoore and Butler to come on. These are players chosen for the modern game: fast, skillful (overall), attacking, willing to take the game on. Just need the right coaching and G/P.

You need a mature ruckman to compete against the serious big men of the AFL. Hammer is that for now and foreseeable future.

 

[UKTiger]

You need a mature ruckman to compete against the serious big men of the AFL. Hammer is that for now and foreseeable future.

Don't forget that Hampson is our only bona fide specialist ruckman we have as sadly Ivan is finished and Soldo a mile away. If we do find a good ruckman during the draft then we will see Hampson drop out of the AFL level barring emergencies. I don't deny he is a trier and has improved out of sight since getting a run but a class ruckman he isn't. Too limited.

 

[leon]

I don't disagree with you, Leon, about the difficulty in finding a quality replacement/upgrade on Hampson.
I am not savvy enough across the players in other teams so I don't profess to have the answer(s) and, as such, have very little idea as to who would be an ideal selection as the Tigers leading ruckman.
All I know, that is much as Hampson tries his best for the Tigers (and he has been doing OK these past few weeks ... has even surprised me on occasions) I just don't believe he is the answer in such a crucial role for premiership-contending teams.

No, he's no champion ruck. That's for sure. But Hawks have proven - you don't have to have one, with the likes of Hale and McEvoy. Handy but not great, or dominant. Even Nicnat, rated No.1 on Player Ratings, FWIW, mostly gets HOs and bustles very well around the ground with only the occasional mark and goal. And who won the GF last year?

But, I want an upgrade by end of 2018, going forward into 2019, because I hope by then, we may be getting into finals. For if not, it's getting late for our big 5 champs; already lots of speculation over Deledio's future at 29!

 

[leon]

I don't disagree with you, Leon, about the difficulty in finding a quality replacement/upgrade on Hampson.
I am not savvy enough across the players in other teams so I don't profess to have the answer(s) and, as such, have very little idea as to who would be an ideal selection as the Tigers leading ruckman.
All I know, that is much as Hampson tries his best for the Tigers (and he has been doing OK these past few weeks ... has even surprised me on occasions) I just don't believe he is the answer in such a crucial role for premiership-contending teams.

I liked Longer over 2014-15, but Hickey has well and truly gone past him (from what I saw of today's good game, may have beaten Gawn too). But then there's talk of him (Billy) being a party-boy. So who knows if he's the one.

Nankervis. Perhaps. A big lad, 106 kgs, but only 199cm. My be superfluous due to Tippett and Naismith's progress as rucks. He's big but he's probably more of the Stef Martin/Mumford type. Will he be able to compete with the Sandilands size giants enough; Gawn, Cox, Naismith, Smith etc?

That's why Hampson is useful. He gives the club time to make a really informed decision. Who is the next best Ivan Maric (but maybe bigger and more athletic)?

 

[AngryAnt]

Shorter Leon.

"I will use player ratings to show how Hampson is better than Goldstein. Hampson is rated no 461 in the AFL. Goldstein is rated no 7. See my logic?"

Where's McBean sit on this ranking system?

 

[leon]

Asking me or Lamby? I only bothered to find them because he said he rated them long ago, so will leave it to him as the Bean expert (but suspect absolutely nowhere).

 

[AngryAnt]

Asking me or Lamby? I only bothered to find them because he said he rated them long ago, so will leave it to him as the Bean expert (but suspect absolutely nowhere).

I checked, he's 680. But with a bullet!!!

 

[TigerMasochist]

I checked, he's 680. But with a bullet!!!

Reckon that might put Beanie behind quite a few midfielders n even some tiny little rovers in the rucking dept. ;D