Ruthless or reluctant? Time for the club to choose | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Ruthless or reluctant? Time for the club to choose

Excellent posts above.

I agree with the assessment of our youth - it is worse than people think, and reflective of the poor draft capital we've had access to over the last decade (for obvious reasons),
 
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Firstly there are no guarantees. So many things have to go right. You have nail the draft, coaching, fitness staff and whether you have the misfortune that Geelong did of being very good but having to compete against a dynasty team that just happened to be better. It's like capturing lightening in a bottle.

However, we don't have the cheat academies they do up north and we are competing against 17 (soon to be 18) other clubs. All with first and second rounders, all being drawn (not withstanding the cheat academies) from the same draft pool. We had three premierships in four years, if we win another premiership in the next decade or even two, the champagne socialists who run the AFL would mark that down as a fail. The way they've set things up we've had our entitled quota of success for the next half century.

Steady as she goes means bottom of the table and then mid-table mediocrity for God knows how many years. Personally I want to be brave. If we can get an expansion club level draft hand by trading players that will not be part of our next premiership, then we should do it. Unlike the expansion clubs which started from scratch, we'd still have an seasoned core of professionals to work with. So I don't buy the comparison that we would be doomed to follow in their footsteps. Was never a fan of giving away two years of draft picks for both Taranto and Hopper, but now they are here, let's use their experienced mature bodies to advantage.

Again no guarantees. There never is. But sorry I don't find the argument that if we trade out say two or three experienced players for first rounders, we'd be losing by say 80 points instead of 60 points per week much of a selling point. I'll take an extra 20 points with a raft of the top juniors in the country over 60 points with arguably the worst collection of sub-23 year olds in the league. Personally I am not convinced that would necessarily happen, but still that's what I prefer.

Ultimately we need to understand we are not special, we are just one of 17 other clubs and that is the metric. Every club will aspire to at the very least incremental natural improvement. We can't just become better within ourselves, we have to become better than them. That is not just improving, that's leap frogging. Now I understand some will say, well why us, why Richmond, why now? Well, unlike other clubs we have a unique set of circumstances where the draft planets have aligned. A club in the west with a lot of first rounders (who would probably offer an additional one next year) are entering a premiership window, and we just happen to have two western Australian boys they would like. And another club up north which happens to be coached by Damien Hardwick, is particularly interested in one of our players, and which again happens to have draft picks to burn. This is not an opportunity that occurs every year. This is a serious crossroads moment

So I want us to be brave. If we fail so be it. Just like we failed when we got Taranto and Hopper to try and pinch another premiership at the end of our dynasty. If it happens it happens. But honestly with our list and the subpar quality of our youth I don't see another way. And if this draft is as even and as good as people are saying, up to pick 25, with both midfielders and talls, we should go for it. It's time to try to build the next dynasty.
great stuff Tygrys
 
one thing that comes up a lot in these topics is that drafting is a lottery and there are no guarantees.

if the 'steady as she goes' crowd (let's call them the SASG mob) are happy with significantly less draft capital as a result of NOT trading all of Baker, Bolton, Rioli and Martin, then doesn't that mean that we are even less likely to nail the few picks we have?

all the while sliding into mediocrity with Tassie on the horizon.

no. we need an expansion-level suite of picks and we need them now. back the recruiting staff. back them in to shoot those midfielder fish in a barrel.

imagine what we can achieve this off-season. if only we had some vision.
 
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one thing that comes up a lot in these topics is that drafting is a lottery and there are no guarantees.

if the 'steady as she goes' crowd (let's call them the SASG mob) are happy with significantly less draft capital as a result of NOT trading all of Baker, Bolton, Rioli and Martin, then doesn't that mean that we are even less likely to nail the few picks we have?

all the while sliding into mediocrity with Tassie on the horizon.

no. we need an expansion-level suite of picks and we need them now. back the recruiting staff. back them in to shoot those midfielder fish in a barrel.

imagine what we can achieve this off-season. if only we had some vision.
If neither Bolton or Rioli want to go, and what’s come out of the Bolton camp this week indicates that’s the case, we can’t MAKE them go. They are contracted players. If Martin goes north we’ll get SFA for him. Baker’s really the only tradable commodity with value, and I suspect that will be for less than we all hope it is.
North have tried the loading up with draft picks, and they’ve got some good kids, but they’ve copped some pretty decent beatings from the good sides and they’re still sitting 17th.
 
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if the 'steady as she goes' crowd (let's call them the SASG mob) are happy with significantly less draft capital as a result of NOT trading all of Baker, Bolton, Rioli and Martin, then doesn't that mean that we are even less likely to nail the few picks we have?

That logic operates on the assumption that those players have no inherent value.

In using the picks you have, the pick only has to be better than an empty list spot to increase your value.

In trading Baker, Bolton and Rioli, the picks have to be of better value than Baker, Bolton and Rioli.

Which would be extremely difficult to do with three early picks in a single draft.

But you could debate the value of those players. Some would say they have no value unless they're playing in a premiership team. Some would say you need those players in order to be a functioning club in the short/medium term.

Historical question, has this sell the farm strategy ever worked?

We certainly didn't do it to create our last flag tilt. Neither did the previous two premiers. But the draft played its part. Cotchin and Martin in particular. I think we might even have more top ten draft picks on our list now than we did in 2017. Haven't checked that, tbh.

I don't think we'll ever again see a team as good as our dynasty team.

North's performance today shows what a team with a critical mass of young high draft picks after an exodus of leadership would likely offer.

I still don't see a necessity to throw the chessboard in the air. We can add through the draft with a strong hand and trading around the edges, whilst keeping players like Bolton and Rioli.

Having said that, Bolton's inability to take the next step this year has altered my thinking on him from untouchable.
 
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To be honest I would favour keeping Bolton and Rioli. Baker, it really is up to him.

Where we need to get ruthless is in the next tier - Graham and Short are the 2 I would have no trouble losing. Graham has 2 flags, has been a warrior, but he doesn't seem to suit the game at the moment. Short gets lots of metres and those metres are straight to the opposition way too often for my liking. If Short could learn to pass the ball to a Richmond player I would reconsider.

DS
 
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We trade out all our experience we lose every game by 80-100 points, lose the good young players we do get and resign ourselves to a decade in the doldrums.

We already have a very early draft pick, a whole stack of later picks that can be traded into earlier picks. Realistically you would probably only have 5- 6 kids taken in the draft. I think baker is likely gone. We will likely end up with a late first / early second round pick for him.

Dusty is a free agent so we aren't getting a first round pick for him even if he did leave. Think its more likely he retires.

The value thing we could and should be doing is acquiring talent not currently getting a game on other lists via player for player trades with some of our fringe talent. Would another club like to get a look at a Sonsie for example who i have my doubts over? Grigg for Collins caused melts galore here when it happened (Lenny Hayes mark 2 according to some) but there is value to be found in filling holes on the list with some moneyball type players as well as using the draft.

Hopefully Hartley, Livingstone, Toce etc have a more sensible and less doomsday approach than some here and in the media (2016 they told us to trade all our good middle aged players for draft picks coz we wouldnt win a flag with that lot).
All good except the last paragraph.
Our 2016 list was brimming with first round A grade talent.
We are in a completely different scenario.
It's time to bottom out and cash in.
Trade our chips because our up and coming talent isn't 2016.
 
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That logic operates on the assumption that those players have no inherent value.

In using the picks you have, the pick only has to be better than an empty list spot to increase your value.

In trading Baker, Bolton and Rioli, the picks have to be of better value than Baker, Bolton and Rioli.

Which would be extremely difficult to do with three early picks in a single draft.

But you could debate the value of those players. Some would say they have no value unless they're playing in a premiership team. Some would say you need those players in order to be a functioning club in the short/medium term.

Historical question, has this sell the farm strategy ever worked?

We certainly didn't do it to create our last flag tilt. Neither did the previous two premiers. But the draft played its part. Cotchin and Martin in particular. I think we might even have more top ten draft picks on our list now than we did in 2017. Haven't checked that, tbh.

I don't think we'll ever again see a team as good as our dynasty team.

North's performance today shows what a team with a critical mass of young high draft picks after an exodus of leadership would likely offer.

I still don't see a necessity to throw the chessboard in the air. We can add through the draft with a strong hand and trading around the edges, whilst keeping players like Bolton and Rioli.

Having said that, Bolton's inability to take the next step this year has altered my thinking on him from untouchable.

Normally you have a point. However with Tasmania and its draft advantages looming large these are not normal times. And we do not have time to build over many years.

The guess here is that Baker is going, Dusty is probably retiring. So the only chess piece being thrown in the air is Rioli. 28 at the beginning of next year we have to replace maybe 6 years of Rioli's output. Picks 7 and 8 should be more than enough.

Look at it another way. It took us 6 years of drafting normally to get the stars onto the list and then another 5 to win. Multiple first round picks this year and a few more next year we ciuld - and l stress could - cut the 6 years down to 2

Key to avoiding lengthy North type delays is to keep enough experience
 
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To be honest I would favour keeping Bolton and Rioli. Baker, it really is up to him.

Where we need to get ruthless is in the next tier - Graham and Short are the 2 I would have no trouble losing. Graham has 2 flags, has been a warrior, but he doesn't seem to suit the game at the moment. Short gets lots of metres and those metres are straight to the opposition way too often for my liking. If Short could learn to pass the ball to a Richmond player I would reconsider.

DS
Not sure it counts as ruthless if you are trading blokes you have no trouble letting go though....
 
That logic operates on the assumption that those players have no inherent value.

In using the picks you have, the pick only has to be better than an empty list spot to increase your value.

In trading Baker, Bolton and Rioli, the picks have to be of better value than Baker, Bolton and Rioli.

Which would be extremely difficult to do with three early picks in a single draft.

But you could debate the value of those players. Some would say they have no value unless they're playing in a premiership team. Some would say you need those players in order to be a functioning club in the short/medium term.

Historical question, has this sell the farm strategy ever worked?

We certainly didn't do it to create our last flag tilt. Neither did the previous two premiers. But the draft played its part. Cotchin and Martin in particular. I think we might even have more top ten draft picks on our list now than we did in 2017. Haven't checked that, tbh.

I don't think we'll ever again see a team as good as our dynasty team.

North's performance today shows what a team with a critical mass of young high draft picks after an exodus of leadership would likely offer.

I still don't see a necessity to throw the chessboard in the air. We can add through the draft with a strong hand and trading around the edges, whilst keeping players like Bolton and Rioli.

Having said that, Bolton's inability to take the next step this year has altered my thinking on him from untouchable.
There are certain unattractive aspects to Shai's game that have emerged this season, his verbal to Mansell in the Freo game an example. But worth remembering that he has been played in a spectacularly weak forward line that has had to rely on the footy coming in from the likes of poor kicking mids Taranto, Dow etc.

That is nil or low supply coming down and little or no input from those around. In my view he is entitled to be pissed. He is still our best player. And being played out of position. Must keep.

Appreciate the contrary views of those who wish to trade widely, but can't agree.

Baker looks to be gone. Fair enough. The further talk around teams like Collingwood and Melbourne, seeking the services of Lynch also make sense. Maybe also Broad. But we need to keep our best, and we need to keep our hero's. Shai, Dan and Dusty to stay.
 
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one thing that comes up a lot in these topics is that drafting is a lottery and there are no guarantees.

if the 'steady as she goes' crowd (let's call them the SASG mob) are happy with significantly less draft capital as a result of NOT trading all of Baker, Bolton, Rioli and Martin, then doesn't that mean that we are even less likely to nail the few picks we have?

all the while sliding into mediocrity with Tassie on the horizon.

no. we need an expansion-level suite of picks and we need them now. back the recruiting staff. back them in to shoot those midfielder fish in a barrel.

imagine what we can achieve this off-season. if only we had some vision.
After today’s game, I’m all in on everyone bar Bolton.

Trading Rioli could get you the Whitlock twins.
 
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After today’s game, I’m all in on everyone bar Bolton.

Trading Rioli could get you the Whitlock twins.
Beat me to it Scoop. Although I would like to keep Bolton, I wouldn't mind also seeing what the likes of Freo can stump up for him. If it's a godfather offer, I'm interested.

So much talent on display today. We just have to invest heavily in this draft.
 
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Invest in the draft and when in doubt recruit the confident types.
 
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Trading Bakes, Rioli, Bolton and Dusty this year improves our position for this years draft, but why not do it over 2 years, eg Bakes or Dan this year if wants to leave and Bolton or someone else next year.
We look like having pick 1 or 2 in this years draft, and probably a similar pick in next years draft. We get a first round pick for Bakes or Dan this year and a first round pick for Bolton or someone else next year.
We have two 2nd round picks, three 3rd round and three 4 round picks in this years draft, package some of them up to improve our draft hand for this and next years draft.
We then a very strong draft hand in the 2024 & 2025 drafts.
 
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Trading Bakes, Rioli, Bolton and Dusty this year improves our position for this years draft, but why not do it over 2 years, eg Bakes or Dan this year if wants to leave and Bolton or someone else next year.
We look like having pick 1 or 2 in this years draft, and probably a similar pick in next years draft. We get a first round pick for Bakes or Dan this year and a first round pick for Bolton or someone else next year.
We have two 2nd round picks, three 3rd round and three 4 round picks in this years draft, package some of them up to improve our draft hand for this and next years draft.
We then a very strong draft hand in the 2024 & 2025 drafts.
Agree with this.
 
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Trading Bakes, Rioli, Bolton and Dusty this year improves our position for this years draft, but why not do it over 2 years, eg Bakes or Dan this year if wants to leave and Bolton or someone else next year.
We look like having pick 1 or 2 in this years draft, and probably a similar pick in next years draft. We get a first round pick for Bakes or Dan this year and a first round pick for Bolton or someone else next year.
We have two 2nd round picks, three 3rd round and three 4 round picks in this years draft, package some of them up to improve our draft hand for this and next years draft.
We then a very strong draft hand in the 2024 & 2025 drafts.
This is a better approach, rather than go all in on one draft.
 
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If we are offered 2 1st rounders for Rioli.
(I love Rioli) I will drive him to the airport
 
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That logic operates on the assumption that those players have no inherent value.

In using the picks you have, the pick only has to be better than an empty list spot to increase your value.

In trading Baker, Bolton and Rioli, the picks have to be of better value than Baker, Bolton and Rioli.

Which would be extremely difficult to do with three early picks in a single draft.

But you could debate the value of those players. Some would say they have no value unless they're playing in a premiership team. Some would say you need those players in order to be a functioning club in the short/medium term.

Historical question, has this sell the farm strategy ever worked?

We certainly didn't do it to create our last flag tilt. Neither did the previous two premiers. But the draft played its part. Cotchin and Martin in particular. I think we might even have more top ten draft picks on our list now than we did in 2017. Haven't checked that, tbh.

I don't think we'll ever again see a team as good as our dynasty team.

North's performance today shows what a team with a critical mass of young high draft picks after an exodus of leadership would likely offer.

I still don't see a necessity to throw the chessboard in the air. We can add through the draft with a strong hand and trading around the edges, whilst keeping players like Bolton and Rioli.

Having said that, Bolton's inability to take the next step this year has altered my thinking on him from untouchable.
It is all about timing. Bolton, Baker and Rioli are not worth as much to us at the moment as the worth they represent to other teams.

Just like Freo’s first rounders are worth more to us than they are worth to them. Business.

Bolton represents the most discrepancy in value because he is demonstrably poor in the area of on-field leadership and example.

At the moment he is absolutely wasted in a non-challenging phase.
 
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