Ruthless or reluctant? Time for the club to choose

[tigersnake]

(2016 they told us to trade all our good middle aged players for draft picks coz we wouldnt win a flag with that lot).

This is an excellent point. I remember a few big names, Lloyd for one, putting up lists of players who would become our flag legends. Its great perspective.

The situations then and now are different, then we didn't go to the draft and showed faith in the list, and were correct.

This time its pretty clear we are going to the draft, just a matter of how much.

 

[Tigga94]

We trade out all our experience we lose every game by 80-100 points, lose the good young players we do get and resign ourselves to a decade in the doldrums.

We already have a very early draft pick, a whole stack of later picks that can be traded into earlier picks. Realistically you would probably only have 5- 6 kids taken in the draft. I think baker is likely gone. We will likely end up with a late first / early second round pick for him.

Dusty is a free agent so we aren't getting a first round pick for him even if he did leave. Think its more likely he retires.

The value thing we could and should be doing is acquiring talent not currently getting a game on other lists via player for player trades with some of our fringe talent. Would another club like to get a look at a Sonsie for example who i have my doubts over? Grigg for Collins caused melts galore here when it happened (Lenny Hayes mark 2 according to some) but there is value to be found in filling holes on the list with some moneyball type players as well as using the draft.

Hopefully Hartley, Livingstone, Toce etc have a more sensible and less doomsday approach than some here and in the media (2016 they told us to trade all our good middle aged players for draft picks coz we wouldnt win a flag with that lot).

we will lose by those margins regardless. We will still have plenty of veterans on the list and in all lines of the field. Trading out Baker, Rioli and losing a couple to retirement isn’t all “of our experience”

 

[Redford]

I've been saying it for a while. Kingy (who I really like) said it today:

“So if they (trade Rioli, Baker, Bolton and maybe Martin), Richmond at the moment have got Pick 1 and 21. They would end up with something like 1, 7,8, 10, 13, 16, 20 and their own 21 and a future first coming in."

What do we lose? Some on-field leadership, for sure. But just look at what we gain. Our next flag kickstarted, right here, right now, in 2024.

We'd still have experience on every line -

Vlastuin, Broad, Short
Taranto, Hopper, Pickett
Lynch, Balta

Ruthless Richmond or Reluctant Richmond? Do we want to shake the competition down for everything it has to offer and say "we are faaaarking Richmond and won't be down for long" or do we bow our heads and disappear into the long night?

Let's *smile* go!

Broad, Pickett, Lynch have maybe 1 year left in them. Vlastuin maybe 2. Then what ?

And that's without considering Lynch and Hopper are always injured as well.

 

[mrposhman]

This is an excellent point. I remember a few big names, Lloyd for one, putting up lists of players who would become our flag legends. Its great perspective.

The situations then and now are different, then we didn't go to the draft and showed faith in the list, and were correct.

This time its pretty clear we are going to the draft, just a matter of how much.

Not only big names, but those on here. Barons other personality Carter was one that very clearly posted we should trade every player under the sun, I'm pretty sure it was after the Saints game.

 

[eZyT]

its a good thread.

kind of a retrospective heavyweight bout Graeme Richmond V a Peggy O'Neil/Benny Gale tag team?

one a flag every five years, the other a flag every three years?

different eras, hard to compare.

I think the world has changed, and Peggy and Benny demolish Graeme with the old (new) 'indestructible calm'

'reluctant' is a bit polarising and partial

perhaps Ruthless V Measured?

there's a time and a place for each.

ideally you judiciously use both concurrently.

like opium and tequila

 

[DuD_Delist]

I've been saying it for a while. Kingy (who I really like) said it today:

“So if they (trade Rioli, Baker, Bolton and maybe Martin), Richmond at the moment have got Pick 1 and 21. They would end up with something like 1, 7,8, 10, 13, 16, 20 and their own 21 and a future first coming in."

Going by a Phantom draft(Rankings) it'll look like this. (Latest)
1-FOS
7-Trainor
8-Travaglia
10-Jagga
13-Moraes
16-J Whitlock
20-Lalor.
21-Allan

I must say it looks great.

 

[eZyT]

Going by a Phantom draft(Rankings) it'll look like this:
1-FOS
7-H O'Farrell
8-Faull
10-Jagga
13-Shanahan
16-Moraes
20-Gross
21-Langford.

I must say it looks great.

gotta take Adrian Dodoros phantoms with a grain of salt

 

[DuD_Delist]

gotta take Adrian Dodoros phantoms with a grain of salt

That was last months.
Has edited for this month so far.lol
A few surprises.

He's a good Junior watcher and its only his rankings.

 

[The_General]

I've been saying it for a while. Kingy (who I really like) said it today:

“So if they (trade Rioli, Baker, Bolton and maybe Martin), Richmond at the moment have got Pick 1 and 21. They would end up with something like 1, 7,8, 10, 13, 16, 20 and their own 21 and a future first coming in."

What do we lose? Some on-field leadership, for sure. But just look at what we gain. Our next flag kickstarted, right here, right now, in 2024.

We'd still have experience on every line -

Vlastuin, Broad, Short
Taranto, Hopper, Pickett
Lynch, Balta

Ruthless Richmond or Reluctant Richmond? Do we want to shake the competition down for everything it has to offer and say "we are faaaarking Richmond and won't be down for long" or do we bow our heads and disappear into the long night?

Let's *smile* go!

Banking all those picks in one year is suicide. There's bound to be some busts, and at the other end you end up with a bunch of your list all retiring at the same time.
Plus, you have guys saying they want to stay, and you throw em out.....bit of a culture killer that. Despite our record, no one thinks our culture is weak.
Targeted Ruth is what you need, not blanket wanton Ruth.

 

[eZyT]

That was last months.
Has edited for this month so far.lol
A few surprises.

He's a good Junior watcher and its only his rankings.

we all have quirks,

but travaglia ahead of jagga and lalor is pretty hard to get passed

 

[UKTiger]

Banking all those picks in one year is suicide. There's bound to be some busts, and at the other end you end up with a bunch of your list all retiring at the same time.
Plus, you have guys saying they want to stay, and you throw em out.....bit of a culture killer that. Despite our record, no one thinks our culture is weak.
Targeted Ruth is what you need, not blanket wanton Ruth.

Agree that we need a good mix of experience and youth. Moving on players who do not necessarily want to move on or retire will be counter productive to the team continuity and experience

 

[Carter]

Banking all those picks in one year is suicide. There's bound to be some busts, and at the other end you end up with a bunch of your list all retiring at the same time.
Plus, you have guys saying they want to stay, and you throw em out.....bit of a culture killer that. Despite our record, no one thinks our culture is weak.
Targeted Ruth is what you need, not blanket wanton Ruth.

That’s where astute free agency comes in. Should have some space if we have a youthful core

 

[spook]

you've changed, man

ill never forgive short for winning the 2020 B&F.

Wasn't his fault. Had a career year. Blame the coaches who gave it to him when in reality he was about our 7th-best (per PRE Player of the Year voting) for the year.

In hindsight that might have been the canary in the coal mine in the heads up own arses department.

 

[Smoking Aces]

We will definitely lose one or two players this year. Most likely Baker and Graham.

The key for me is getting early picks by trading with clubs who need the points for father/son. We have loaded up for this.


I expect 3 first round picks this year in our pockets.

1 our own, 1 from trading out a player and 1 through draft pick trading.

 

[craig]

Right now I say we are neither ruthless or reluctant, Id say we are ROOTED

 

[Feeling Tigerish]

I've been saying it for a while. Kingy (who I really like) said it today:

“So if they (trade Rioli, Baker, Bolton and maybe Martin), Richmond at the moment have got Pick 1 and 21. They would end up with something like 1, 7,8, 10, 13, 16, 20 and their own 21 and a future first coming in."

What do we lose? Some on-field leadership, for sure. But just look at what we gain. Our next flag kickstarted, right here, right now, in 2024.

We'd still have experience on every line -

Vlastuin, Broad, Short
Taranto, Hopper, Pickett
Lynch, Balta

Ruthless Richmond or Reluctant Richmond? Do we want to shake the competition down for everything it has to offer and say "we are faaaarking Richmond and won't be down for long" or do we bow our heads and disappear into the long night?

Let's *smile* go!

i am 100% up for this, as much as i love those players, the trades could set us up for the next decade. dont think they'll have the guts to do it though

 

[thegdog]

Gee that 2019 was a good draft

 

[Harry]

Or it could set us up for a long period at the bottom like Melbourne Carlton and North.

 

[Tygrys]

Firstly there are no guarantees. So many things have to go right. You have to nail the draft, coaching, fitness staff and whether you have the misfortune that Geelong did of being very good but having to compete against a dynasty team that just happened to be better. It's like capturing lightening in a bottle.

However, we don't have the cheat academies they do up north and we are competing against 17 (soon to be 18) other clubs. All with first and second rounders, all being drawn (not withstanding the cheat academies) from the same draft pool. We had three premierships in four years, if we win another premiership in the next decade or even two, the champagne socialists who run the AFL would mark that down as a fail. The way they've set things up we've had our entitled quota of success for the next half century.

Steady as she goes means bottom of the table and then mid-table mediocrity for God knows how many years. Personally I want to be brave. If we can get an expansion club level draft hand by trading players that will not be part of our next premiership, then we should do it. Unlike the expansion clubs which started from scratch, we'd still have an seasoned core of professionals to work with. So I don't buy the comparison that we would be doomed to follow in their footsteps. Was never a fan of giving away two years of draft picks for both Taranto and Hopper, but now they are here, let's use their experienced mature bodies to advantage.

Again no guarantees. There never is. But sorry I don't find the argument that if we trade out say two or three experienced players for first rounders, we'd be losing by say 80 points instead of 60 points per week much of a selling point. I'll take an extra 20 points with a raft of the top juniors in the country over 60 points with arguably the worst collection of sub-23 year olds in the league. Personally I am not convinced that would necessarily happen, but still that's what I prefer.

Ultimately we need to understand we are not special, we are just one of 17 other clubs and that is the metric. Every club will aspire to at the very least incremental natural improvement. We can't just become better within ourselves, we have to become better than them. That is not just improving, that's leap frogging. Now I understand some will say, well why us, why Richmond, why now? Well, unlike other clubs we have a unique set of circumstances where the draft planets have aligned. A club in the west with a lot of first rounders (who would probably offer an additional one next year) are entering a premiership window, and we just happen to have two western Australian boys they would like. And another club up north which happens to be coached by Damien Hardwick, is particularly interested in one of our players, and which again happens to have draft picks to burn. This is not an opportunity that occurs every year. This is a serious crossroads moment

So I want us to be brave. If we fail so be it. Just like we failed when we got Taranto and Hopper to try and pinch another premiership at the end of our dynasty. If it happens it happens. But honestly with our list and the subpar quality of our youth I don't see another way. And if this draft is as even and as good as people are saying, up to pick 25, with both midfielders and talls, we should go for it. It's time to try to build the next dynasty.

 

[pete and tys]

The above is spot on.
We have half a team of decent/quality mature players now.
We have 5 or so good or potentially good youth.
What is needed now is young class...we can get 5 this draft.. Then 2 more next draft.
Only need some smart mature trades ala Houli and Grigg....and now we have a fully competitive side in 3 or 4 years time.
Add a class trade with money from some retirements...ala Lynch/Prestia...we then have a quality side...4 years from now.
It is doable...but will not happen with inaction....or steady as she goes.
Risk....chance of reward..
Steady...years mired in mediocrity.
A team full of youth gives hope and interest...mediocrity gives nothing.
We must strike now.