Russia Invades Ukraine

[DavidSSS]

Whats yours??

Sounds like its give into whatever Russia wants, as its certainly not to allow the Ukrainians their right to self determination.

I was watching an interview on BBC News the other night, with 1 of Putins right hand men. He blamed the need to go to war because Zelensky didn't agree to Putins demands. The interviewer says "but Putin doesn't have the right to demand what another nation does". This is what you are siding with, someone who just wants to enforce what he wants on others.

Your position on this is very strange.

As I said above, you don't give in, but you also don't dismiss their concerns without any consideration. It is a recipe for conflict . . . and here we are.

No major power sits back and does nothing when there is a close threat. Hence the Cuban missile crisis.

Russia made it clear long ago that it was willing to have the Baltic states in NATO but not Georgia and Ukraine. So, if you totally ignore what they tell you, and then keep encouraging the government installed by western-backed coup you get this. FFS the west installed its preferred government in Ukraine and that's ok? You think Ukraine has much say in this?

My position on this is that the actions of both Russia and NATO have led to the current war and I would prefer people not get killed in wars.

You just continue in your fairly land where one side is totally right and the other side has all the blame, it's a nice planet you live on, but it solves precisely nothing because it ignores reality.

DS

 

[Giardiasis]

You just continue in your fairly land where one side is totally right and the other side has all the blame, it's a nice planet you live on, but it solves precisely nothing because it ignores reality.

It's actually the most dangerous stance to take as it will lead one to think it a good idea to fight Russia over Ukraine. Morals matter not here. Power matters.

 

[mrposhman]

As I said above, you don't give in, but you also don't dismiss their concerns without any consideration. It is a recipe for conflict . . . and here we are.

No major power sits back and does nothing when there is a close threat. Hence the Cuban missile crisis.

Russia made it clear long ago that it was willing to have the Baltic states in NATO but not Georgia and Ukraine. So, if you totally ignore what they tell you, and then keep encouraging the government installed by western-backed coup you get this. FFS the west installed its preferred government in Ukraine and that's ok? You think Ukraine has much say in this?

My position on this is that the actions of both Russia and NATO have led to the current war and I would prefer people not get killed in wars.

You just continue in your fairly land where one side is totally right and the other side has all the blame, it's a nice planet you live on, but it solves precisely nothing because it ignores reality.

DS

If NATO's goal was to get Ukraine into NATO, why have they rejected them a number of times? This is where your whole position falls down. Ukraine has applied for entry to NATO and was rejected and if you listen to some of the NATO members, entry to NATO was not happening anytime soon, so why is Ukraine being in NATO (which it isn't and doesn't sound like it was happening anytime soon), suddenly such a major issue for Putin.

Personally I think you've been sucked into the rhetoric spewed by Moscow.

In terms of the Wests preferred government, maybe have a re-read of what occurred. There was a plan to create closer ties with Europe which the people of Ukraine supported, the pro-Russian president then decided off his own back to change that, he then changed laws to half protests (similar to what Putin uses to stop protests) which created an uprising in Ukraine. Your assumption is that all of Ukraine has historically been controlled by Russia which is actually false. The East of Ukraine is heavily pro-Russian, the West the total opposite. Its why the current government didn't even need a run-off in their elections, but then I guess all their elections are rigged by either NATO or Russia.

BTW - you asked for a solution, and I asked you the same question back which you didn't answer and thats because the 2 scenarios that are open are mutually exclusive. Ukraine wants closer ties to Europe and NATO, Putin wants the opposite, so there is no real opportunity for much negotiation here. Your belief is there is, well simply put there isn't, which is why IMO the most likely scenario is Ukraine will ultimately split. The East will join Russia, the West won't, but that won't satisfy Putin IMO as it doesn't result in the solution he wants and therefore he will continue on.

 

[mrposhman]

To Russia, NATO is a grave threat to its sovereignty and claims about the defensive nature of NATO matter not. NATO means military assets on Russia's doorstep aimed at Russia. It also doesn't matter that Russia is an illiberal country that brutalises it's own people, power must be respected otherwise troubles will result. While Russia is no longer a great power, it probably has the most formidable military in Europe and it has thousands of nukes. Ukraine is paying the price for not understanding this. That doesn't make Russia's behaviour acceptable from a moral perspective.

So you are saying, that because Russia has great military power, that Ukraine should just give in to their demands and accept a scenario where the political and economic development is constrained by links to Russia (because it provides Putin some security)????

Really?? Wow.

 

[Giardiasis]

So you are saying, that because Russia has great military power, that Ukraine should just give in to their demands and accept a scenario where the political and economic development is constrained by links to Russia (because it provides Putin some security)????

Really?? Wow.

I mean the alternative is what you are seeing right now…

 

[mrposhman]

I mean the alternative is what you are seeing right now…

So because Russia can try and take Ukraine by force, Ukraine should just shut up and do what they are told?? Constraining their citizens economic development?

 

[fastin bulbous]

If Putin only wanted the seperatist regions, then he could have pushed troops there (like he did with Crimea) and force an vote on their people as to who they want to be supported by, Ukraine of Russia (who knows on the validity of the voting process).

The reason he has invaded the whole of Ukraine is because Putin believes in the USSR (he has stated this repeatedly) and he believes that those countries that were part of the USSR should be under Russia direct control and influence. He blames the Ukraine on Lenin providing regional control to Ukraine which goes back a long long way in our recent history.

I was watching an interview on BBC News last night with a former CIA operative who was focused on Russia intelligence, and he said that Putin watched the Gaddafi execution on repeat. Ask yourself in the many recent conflicts there have been, who has Putin constantly sided with, those pro democracy groups in various countries, or the despots that aim to suppress and autocrate countries. Who did he support in Libya, Syria, Yemen? He has focused purely on maintaining his autocracy and any signs of dissent or pro democracy uprisings (like the Arab Spring) he wants to quash, as he is scared that similar uprisings could occur in Russia. What happens to his political opponents?

Putin is not the good guy here and I'm astounded that several on here seem to support his actions.

To be fair mr poshman I think many people are acknowledging that nato/the us have been very provocative to a bloke they know is a psycho. They wanted to move in next door with their whole family and were warned many times not to do it. Now they fail to take responsibility for the consequences and are just chucking a few sanctions around and pointing the finger. Not good enough in my opinion. No one is celebrating the invasion or loving Putin.

 

[Giardiasis]

So because Russia can try and take Ukraine by force, Ukraine should just shut up and do what they are told?? Constraining their citizens economic development?

Russia allowed them to develop economically however they wanted to be involved in that process. Seeking to cut out Russia and become Westernised has ultimately led to their destruction. Obviously a shitty situation but that is realpolitik.

 

[Harry]

Not sure why Putin wouldn’t welcome missile bases on his border with open arms.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Not sure why Putin wouldn’t welcome missile bases on his border with open arms.

Not sure why that's seen as a problem these days. Pretty sure all of the big boys n half the rest trying to wear big boy pants have missiles that launch up around 4000, 5000 kliks so no-one needs to be hiding behind anyone's fence these days to sling rocks.
The only reason you'd need to be sitting on anyone's border these days would be if you were planning to physically invade. Short term hit n run invasion might work o.k. if you're planning to knock over a govt. History shows that long term invasion anywhere is extremely difficult, expensive in all aspects n pretty much unsuccessful in the long run

 

[MD Jazz]

Russia allowed them to develop economically however they wanted to be involved in that process. Seeking to cut out Russia and become Westernised has ultimately led to their destruction. Obviously a shitty situation but that is realpolitik.

Shouldn't that be the Ukranian's choice?

Wasn't that what they voted for overwhelmingly in 1991? Something like 92% voted for independence?

A new Cold War emerging as Russia launches full-scale invasion of Ukraine

The days of Soviet bloc countries in Eastern Europe disappeared at the end of the Cold War nearly 30 years ago. It appears Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to start a new Cold War..

theconversation.com

 

[Brodders17]

So because Russia can try and take Ukraine by force, Ukraine should just shut up and do what they are told?? Constraining their citizens economic development?

surely it is up to individual Ukrainians to take Putin to court to sue him for infringing on their property rights. that should solve it.

 

[Brodders17]

How does Russia not see NATO as a threat? NATO is a cold war relic created to oppose the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union no longer exists, but NATO does, what is it's purpose? To control Russia.

Don't know about ordinary everyday Russians, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that those in control of the strategic and military institutions in Russia absolutely see NATO as a threat. It ain't just Putin. Who else but NATO is a threat to Russia?

DS

NATO's purpose? it is a fair question. it is not like Russia's neighbours should fear invasion.

 

[mrposhman]

NATO's purpose? it is a fair question. it is not like Russia's neighbours should fear invasion.

Exactly, its not like this has happened before...............................oh wait........................

 

[Giardiasis]

Shouldn't that be the Ukranian's choice?

Wasn't that what they voted for overwhelmingly in 1991? Something like 92% voted for independence?

A new Cold War emerging as Russia launches full-scale invasion of Ukraine

The days of Soviet bloc countries in Eastern Europe disappeared at the end of the Cold War nearly 30 years ago. It appears Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to start a new Cold War..

theconversation.com

Sure it should be the choice of Ukrainians to decide. What’s your point?

 

[Harry]

Interesting tweets by the Chinese embassy in Russia

https://twitter.com/x/status/1497162051973783553

 

[Harry]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1497161891776507936

 

[Harry]

China is a big player here and signs are they're happy to allow Putin to continue with the invasion. Wouldn't surprise if China gave him the green light. The other interesting player is Iran.

 

[Harry]

The geopolitical landscape is in an interesting place ATM. There needs to be a balance of power and mutual respect in order to have peace. The globalists have miscalculated the situation and unfortunately Ukraine is paying the price.

 

[Baloo]

This is going to hurt Putin. Pretty much screws his economy completely. Russia's foreign reserves will be frozen, no one will trade the ruble, the oligarch's will have their assets frozen.

It might come down to whether he gets assassinated before or after he launches a nuke. China won't help. They would much prefer not to have madman with nukes as a neighbour. I guess Cuba, Iran and Myanmar can loan Putin some money.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1497707464548093959