Russia Invades Ukraine | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Russia Invades Ukraine

Giardiasis said:
The breakaway republics have been at war for 6 years, just occupying them wouldn't do anything for peace. If Russia wants to stop the fighting it has to end the Ukrainian military. I agree they won't look to occupy the Ukraine, that would be a major blunder. They will want peace on condition of agreements of Ukrainian de-militarisation, Ukraine to end claims to Crimea and the Donbas and for NATO membership aspirations to be squashed. If the war drags out because of continued support from the west we really will be in a very dangerous position indeed.
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and when 2/3rds of the population of Ukraine want to be in NATO and with the EU, you just ignore them to allow Putin to stroke his ego and feel secure?

I see thats what HE wants, but is it the right outcome for the people of Ukraine, not in the slightest.
 
mrposhman said:
and when 2/3rds of the population of Ukraine want to be in NATO and with the EU, you just ignore them to allow Putin to stroke his ego and feel secure?

I see thats what HE wants, but is it the right outcome for the people of Ukraine, not in the slightest.
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Yes you take the considerations of a nuclear power on your border very seriously.

The right outcome for the people of Ukraine is to not be at war with Russia. What level of sovereignty they had before is now gone, they will become beholden to Russia alone. Not to mention the level of death and destruction that has and will occur. You seem to think this is a price worth paying?
 
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DavidSSS said:
Just as an aside, claiming he is some sort of psychopath to explain the full invasion is a cop out. Putin has shown himself to be an astute political operator for many years.
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He's a psychopath. That doesn't mean he can't be an astute political operator as well, but he's definitely a psychopath. Anyone that has dared challenge him is dead. Whether it's on Russian soil, or foreign soil via poison he doesn't care. He's ex-KGB.

Putin's a dangerous psychopath, and has been for a while. You're claiming if NATO didn't creep, if Ukraine wasn't trying to get into NATO, then this would have been avoided. I think you've got the cart before the horse on this one. The NATO expansion and Ukraine's desperation to get in was because they knew what Putin wanted and was mad enough to try it.

DavidSSS said:
He must see some benefit beyond the cost of invasion, or he sees a threat which justifies the cost. Putin is many things, stupid is not one of them.
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Or he felt this was his window of opportunity that's he's been waiting for. His US President weakened NATO, cancelled a 400Billion weapons sale to Ukraine, and rallied the US population to reject any fighting offshore. COVID is happening, Biden isn't stable enough, UK is in disarray with Boris.
 
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mrposhman said:
and when 2/3rds of the population of Ukraine want to be in NATO and with the EU, you just ignore them to allow Putin to stroke his ego and feel secure?

I see thats what HE wants, but is it the right outcome for the people of Ukraine, not in the slightest.
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And if NATO doesn't want Ukraine as a member it is ok? Well, actually it is, but you see Ukraine is constrained, like all countries are.

Baloo said:
Putin's a dangerous psychopath, and has been for a while. You're claiming if NATO didn't creep, if Ukraine wasn't trying to get into NATO, then this would have been avoided. I think you've got the cart before the horse on this one. The NATO expansion and Ukraine's desperation to get in was because they knew what Putin wanted and was mad enough to try it.
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I don't agree he is a psychopath but really neither of us know. It isn't so much Ukraine wanting to get into NATO which is the issue, it is more that the USA was provoking Russia deliberately, by trying to get a close neighbour of Russia into an alliance largely dominated by a Superpower (USA). But the USA went on provoking even though they knew this was a likely, not certain, outcome. As I keep saying, there are many sides who have blame in this situation and it could have been foreseen and avoided, but power politics being what it is, the powerful countries consider a minnow like Ukraine to be expendable, which is part of the reason the USA clearly stated they would not defend Ukraine.

As for the financial sanctions, notice how they are not across the board, there are some limitations? That's because, not only is Ukraine not worth expending military resources and losing lives for, there are also financial interests involved, like the City of London. You wonder how much they are lobbying to make sure they continue to make a few quid off the oligarchs.

DS
 
DavidSSS said:
And if NATO doesn't want Ukraine as a member it is ok? Well, actually it is, but you see Ukraine is constrained, like all countries are.

I don't agree he is a psychopath but really neither of us know. It isn't so much Ukraine wanting to get into NATO which is the issue, it is more that the USA was provoking Russia deliberately, by trying to get a close neighbour of Russia into an alliance largely dominated by a Superpower (USA). But the USA went on provoking even though they knew this was a likely, not certain, outcome. As I keep saying, there are many sides who have blame in this situation and it could have been foreseen and avoided, but power politics being what it is, the powerful countries consider a minnow like Ukraine to be expendable, which is part of the reason the USA clearly stated they would not defend Ukraine.

As for the financial sanctions, notice how they are not across the board, there are some limitations? That's because, not only is Ukraine not worth expending military resources and losing lives for, there are also financial interests involved, like the City of London. You wonder how much they are lobbying to make sure they continue to make a few quid off the oligarchs.

DS
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I disagree with all of that. The only other place I've heard this sort of defence of Putin is the US Fox News.

Belarus are are about to send in troops to help the Russians. *smile*. But it's a sure sign that the Ukraine population are putting up one hell of a fight against the Russians.

I was uncomfortable about a NATO military response until now. If Belarus joins I reckon NATO should protect Ukraine airspace and cut/disrupt Russian / Belarus supply lines within Ukraine's borders.
 
Giardiasis said:
The breakaway republics have been at war for 6 years, just occupying them wouldn't do anything for peace. If Russia wants to stop the fighting it has to end the Ukrainian military. I agree they won't look to occupy the Ukraine, that would be a major blunder. They will want peace on condition of agreements of Ukrainian de-militarisation, Ukraine to end claims to Crimea and the Donbas and for NATO membership aspirations to be squashed. If the war drags out because of continued support from the west we really will be in a very dangerous position indeed.
Click to expand...

and when 2/3rds of the population of Ukraine want to be in NATO and with the EU, you just ignore them to allow Putin to stroke his ego and feel secure?

I see thats what HE wants, but is it the right outcome for the people of Ukraine, not in the slightest.
Giardiasis said:
Yes you take the considerations of a nuclear power on your border very seriously.

The right outcome for the people of Ukraine is to not be at war with Russia. What level of sovereignty they had before is now gone, they will become beholden to Russia alone. Not to mention the level of death and destruction that has and will occur. You seem to think this is a price worth paying?
Click to expand...



I assume then you victim blame those in domestic violence relationships. They get beaten up because they have the audacity to do something that the other party doesn't like???

So you say Ukraine shouldn't do something to *smile* Russia off because they will hit them hard.
Like I say, is that the same in a Domestic violence relationship???
 
DavidSSS said:
I wasn't arguing for rationality, I was arguing to hem Russia in and restrict their options. I thought the Minsk Accords were a decent compromise. Leave that in place for a while and then test the water.



Which is why I said much earlier in this, or maybe another, thread that I couldn't see how a full invasion of Ukraine would serve Russia or Putin's interests. Makes you wonder what pushed him to go this far. I thought after he recognised the breakaway republics he would likely just occupy that part of Ukraine.

Just as an aside, claiming he is some sort of psychopath to explain the full invasion is a cop out. Putin has shown himself to be an astute political operator for many years. He must see some benefit beyond the cost of invasion, or he sees a threat which justifies the cost. Putin is many things, stupid is not one of them.

DS
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You still haven't answered the question. Why did all these other nations join NATO if Russia was no threat? Why does Ukraine want to join NATO?
 
There is nothing for Putin to gain except a paper bag full of cash from the Chinese.

The US saw the trap, have not sprung it and will not spring it.

Putin is driving off a cliff Thelma and Louise style.

A more realistic leader will replace him, someone with a better grasp of the mediocre limelight Russia deserves in the 21st century.

As faded and diminished as they are, they are still clearly capable of exerting regional influence and, regrettably, can point to nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip.

This is not about the fall of western civilisation. This is about rising global inequity, the labyrinthine machinations of a rising Asian superpower and the troubling hari-kari of a once-proud European power.

As I said, all eyes should be on the Pacific theatre.

Which is not to diminish for one moment the suffering of the Ukrainian populace. Ultimately Russia will be squeezed out, like popping a pimple. Putin will either be taken out violently or incarcerated for life.

NATO will be strengthened accordingly and the US will continue to quietly develop and consolidate their sea power.

The US does not currently have the biggest naval capability on the planet, but it is afforded the most space to work in and is comfortably the most experienced and cohesive.

Another factor to take into account is India’s burgeoning sea power. China is a genuine superpower on land and sea but is effectively buttressed to east and west.

No matter how large your continental and naval armies grow, you are always constrained - or set free - by your geography.

The US is KOTD when comes to natural resources and being able to dominate global trade movement.

China controls a healthy slice of North Sea and the western Pacific (with Japan a complication) but is hemmed by an incredibly dour and grim swathe of the Eurasian continent.

And so the tyranny of distance will constrain China and allow the US and her allies some time in the sun yet. Probably the better part of this century if we are to look at the simple truths of geography and how it shapes the global economy and power balance.
 
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mrposhman said:
I assume then you victim blame those in domestic violence relationships. They get beaten up because they have the audacity to do something that the other party doesn't like???

So you say Ukraine shouldn't do something to *smile* Russia off because they will hit them hard.
Like I say, is that the same in a Domestic violence relationship???
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False equivalence. Ukraine doesn’t have a police force to protect it stronger than the abuser, nor an exit option of leaving the relationship.

Foreign affairs are governed by power, repeat after me, foreign affairs are governed by power. It is fair? No. What happens if you ignore that reality and ignore the security concerns of a bigger neighbour? You get whacked.
 
Tigers of Old said:
Ummm..:oops:

www.abc.net.au

'Totally unacceptable': US responds to Putin putting nuclear deterrent force on high alert

The United States and Ukraine say they will not back down even as Vladimir Putin says he has placed Russia's nuclear forces on high alert.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
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Where exactly does he think he is going to fire nuclear weapons? Into the middle of Ukraine? Obliterating the Ukrainian people he apparently "loves like brothers" and making the place uninhabitable. What is the point? But then Rowan Baxter apparently loved his wife and kids too, so much that he deliberately burned them to death in a car.

Tells you more how wrong Ukraine is going for him than anything else. Has miscalculated this one and overplayed his hand.
 
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Legends of 2017 said:
Now Russia is threatening Sweden and Finland with military action if the want to join NATO
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Talk to Finns and they'll tell you there's already about 10,000 Russian soldiers on the Finnish border, 6 feet underground.
 
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Giardiasis said:
False equivalence. Ukraine doesn’t have a police force to protect it stronger than the abuser, nor an exit option of leaving the relationship.

Foreign affairs are governed by power, repeat after me, foreign affairs are governed by power. It is fair? No. What happens if you ignore that reality and ignore the security concerns of a bigger neighbour? You get whacked.
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I know that. Thats the reason why UKRAINE WANTED TO JOIN NATO. Your rhetoric (and Davids), is that because NATO have tried to push Ukraine to join NATO this is happening, but this is the exact reason why those Balkan states WANT to join NATO, to provide that deterrence to Russia.

In the similarity to Domestic Violence, Ukraine called the police, and their attacker has attacked them for it.
 
Giardiasis said:
False equivalence. Ukraine doesn’t have a police force to protect it stronger than the abuser, nor an exit option of leaving the relationship.

Foreign affairs are governed by power, repeat after me, foreign affairs are governed by power. It is fair? No. What happens if you ignore that reality and ignore the security concerns of a bigger neighbour? You get whacked.
Click to expand...

You forget Ukraine isn't alone. Other countries will band together in support (already started) and it may be Russia will regret taking the action it has. Who may end up getting the biggest whack - the Russian people.
 
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