Dunno. Don't actually bother with following the world game, just heard during a couple of news reports that some fancy soccer match that was supposed to be played in Russia had been cancelled.
-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Russia Invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
Yes, that's right, but there's been quite a few do a Harold Holt when things get a bit hairy.
That's not to say he won't accept the offer later on.
I don't think they've lost that yet, but Poland have just refused to play them.
I think a more accurate description is that he is a narcissistic, megamaniacal psychopath.
Russia isn’t the problem.Putin is
Ordinary everyday Russians don’t want war, and I’m sure ( just my opinion) that they don’t see NATO as a threat
They probably think Putin is the bigger threat but know what will happen to them if they speak out. Its happened too many times already.
Yep, one side is totally correct, completely blameless, and the other is run by an imperialist madman who's sole aim is to take over the world.
This narrative must be very comforting for those who see things in black and white.
This comforting narrative is great when you want to attribute blame.
But if you actually want to solve the issues in that part of the world, well, we now see how the issues get solved when the priority is to attribute blame.
If you actually want to see things settle down and countries not manipulated by great powers then you have to have some sort of understanding of how international relations work.
This invasion was pretty much set in motion when the Russian's made their demands, and when the West rejected them. If both sides are hell bent on blaming each other there is no room for compromise. So, you end up with conflict.
Quick question: for all those who wish to play the blame game, ignore context etc - what is your solution?
Personally I reckon when you are heading toward a likely invasion situation, especially one where there is a massive military imbalance between the invader and the invaded, you don't dismiss the demands of the powerful invader, you actually try and work it out. France tried this but had no backing from the USA or NATO so it was doomed to failure.
You want clear cut right/wrong dichotomies, you want there to be a convenient enemy to blame, you got it. It comes with conflict which, in this case, and not surprisingly, has resulted in a war. I just feel sorry for the Ukrainians getting shot at in the middle.
DS
This narrative must be very comforting for those who see things in black and white.
This comforting narrative is great when you want to attribute blame.
But if you actually want to solve the issues in that part of the world, well, we now see how the issues get solved when the priority is to attribute blame.
If you actually want to see things settle down and countries not manipulated by great powers then you have to have some sort of understanding of how international relations work.
This invasion was pretty much set in motion when the Russian's made their demands, and when the West rejected them. If both sides are hell bent on blaming each other there is no room for compromise. So, you end up with conflict.
Quick question: for all those who wish to play the blame game, ignore context etc - what is your solution?
Personally I reckon when you are heading toward a likely invasion situation, especially one where there is a massive military imbalance between the invader and the invaded, you don't dismiss the demands of the powerful invader, you actually try and work it out. France tried this but had no backing from the USA or NATO so it was doomed to failure.
You want clear cut right/wrong dichotomies, you want there to be a convenient enemy to blame, you got it. It comes with conflict which, in this case, and not surprisingly, has resulted in a war. I just feel sorry for the Ukrainians getting shot at in the middle.
DS
How does Russia not see NATO as a threat? NATO is a cold war relic created to oppose the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union no longer exists, but NATO does, what is it's purpose? To control Russia.
Don't know about ordinary everyday Russians, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that those in control of the strategic and military institutions in Russia absolutely see NATO as a threat. It ain't just Putin. Who else but NATO is a threat to Russia?
DS
Very constructive. I thought people here were upset because Putin takes out his enemies, seems taking out people who are inconvenient is fine for some.
DS
Can we simply nuke the *smile* out of everyone? No more problems anywhere
Is Russia the Soviet Union? If it isn’t then your argument about NATO being created to oppose the Soviet Union doesn’t now apply to Russia. If Russia is the Soviet Union, then the argument for NATO still applies.
If NATO is a Cold War relic, then it isn’t the only one, Putin is as well
It's the Champions League final - was going to be in St Petersburg.
Yeah, but do you think both countries would participate in the WC qualifiers any further? Especially Russia.
Whats yours??
Sounds like its give into whatever Russia wants, as its certainly not to allow the Ukrainians their right to self determination.
I was watching an interview on BBC News the other night, with 1 of Putins right hand men. He blamed the need to go to war because Zelensky didn't agree to Putins demands. The interviewer says "but Putin doesn't have the right to demand what another nation does". This is what you are siding with, someone who just wants to enforce what he wants on others.
Your position on this is very strange.
And herein lies the problem, 2 cold war relics blaming each other and continuing an old conflict.
We could have an in depth discussion about how Putin managed to manoeuvre himself into power and the lost opportunity of the mess of oligarchs and authoritarianism that is post-Soviet Russia. I don't know enough about this but I reckon an opportunity lost there. Plus, with the rise of China we could have done without making sure Russia remained an enemy and is therefore encouraged to find friends elsewhere.
Still, I could live in a universe of clear cut baddies and goodies and feel a lot better about all this.
DS
NATO invaded Yugoslavia, a non-NATO european country that didn't threaten any NATO countries. While not European, it also bombed Libya and aided rebel forces. Libya posed no threat to NATO countries.
All these arguments about NATO being defensive miss the point. International relations are governed by power not by moral codes. Every NATO expansion east reduced Russia's power and ability to have a say in Eastern Europe. Since the end of the cold war the US has pursued a liberal hegemonic interventionist foreign policy, i.e. trying to bring democracy to non-democratic countries, through force if necessary, the result has been an unmitigated disaster in the middle east and now Europe. Countries like Russia that do not share the US's stance on these issues are simply ignored, hence any diplomatic solution to resolve the problems with Russia and the Ukraine never stood a chance. To Russia, NATO is a grave threat to its sovereignty and claims about the defensive nature of NATO matter not. NATO means military assets on Russia's doorstep aimed at Russia. It also doesn't matter that Russia is an illiberal country that brutalises it's own people, power must be respected otherwise troubles will result. While Russia is no longer a great power, it probably has the most formidable military in Europe and it has thousands of nukes. Ukraine is paying the price for not understanding this. That doesn't make Russia's behaviour acceptable from a moral perspective.
The US's foreign policy has led to an end to a rules based order in Europe (as it was never respected and rules based in name only as all it really meant was whatever the US wanted) and now it is a return to pure might is right. Hopefully sane heads prevail in the west and they understand the new reality and stop trying to aid Ukraine as this will just prolong the war and cause more deaths and destruction.
Last edited:
