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Russia Invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
Scary reports that Putin is considering using thermobaric bombs on Kiev to break the resistance he didn't expect. These things are vicious.
A Human Rights Watch report of 1 February 2000[15] quotes a study made by the US Defense Intelligence Agency:
A Human Rights Watch report of 1 February 2000[15] quotes a study made by the US Defense Intelligence Agency:
According to a U.S. Central Intelligence Agency study,[15] "the effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs, and possibly blindness." Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that, because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue ... it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate".[16]
Let's face it, this is a mess on both sides.
NATO exists to oppose Russia, it has no other purpose. NATO has been expanding in Eastern Europe. Now, why would they do this? Do they need the extra crack troops and equipment from their new Eastern European acquisitions? Yeah, give me a break, they are doing it to hem Russia in.
Russia has put up with the expansion of NATO to include Poland and the Baltic States, but they drew a line with Georgia and Ukraine. Drawing a line meant invading Georgia, installing a client regime in Ukraine, and now invading Ukraine as their client regime was overthrown by a Western backed coup.
Both sides are maneuvering in a game of power politics in Eastern Europe.
What the client regime in Ukraine run by the Russians, the regime installed by the Western backed coup, and now this latest invasion do, is basically kick the can down the road. The likely outcome of this will be that Russia wins the war, and tries to make itself scarce in the peace because it knows it cannot win the peace - install another client regime. Then wait for the next move, which will be NATO and the West trying to foment dissent in Ukraine and overthrow the client regime. Back and forth over and over.
Notice someone missing there? Yep, Ukraine.
The reality of every country in a world order based on power relations is that all countries are constrained. Ukraine because of its location and history is more constrained than most. If NATO and the Russians were truly interested in the people of Ukraine and in avoiding war they would look for a resolution which threatens neither side and gives the Ukrainians some say in the running of their country. But neither side wants to give up the potential advantage of having a client state in Ukraine. The real solution is a neutral Ukraine, until Russia and NATO stop playing their power games Ukraine remains the meat in the sandwich and has little control over its destiny.
DS
NATO exists to oppose Russia, it has no other purpose. NATO has been expanding in Eastern Europe. Now, why would they do this? Do they need the extra crack troops and equipment from their new Eastern European acquisitions? Yeah, give me a break, they are doing it to hem Russia in.
Russia has put up with the expansion of NATO to include Poland and the Baltic States, but they drew a line with Georgia and Ukraine. Drawing a line meant invading Georgia, installing a client regime in Ukraine, and now invading Ukraine as their client regime was overthrown by a Western backed coup.
Both sides are maneuvering in a game of power politics in Eastern Europe.
What the client regime in Ukraine run by the Russians, the regime installed by the Western backed coup, and now this latest invasion do, is basically kick the can down the road. The likely outcome of this will be that Russia wins the war, and tries to make itself scarce in the peace because it knows it cannot win the peace - install another client regime. Then wait for the next move, which will be NATO and the West trying to foment dissent in Ukraine and overthrow the client regime. Back and forth over and over.
Notice someone missing there? Yep, Ukraine.
The reality of every country in a world order based on power relations is that all countries are constrained. Ukraine because of its location and history is more constrained than most. If NATO and the Russians were truly interested in the people of Ukraine and in avoiding war they would look for a resolution which threatens neither side and gives the Ukrainians some say in the running of their country. But neither side wants to give up the potential advantage of having a client state in Ukraine. The real solution is a neutral Ukraine, until Russia and NATO stop playing their power games Ukraine remains the meat in the sandwich and has little control over its destiny.
DS
Putin is Putin. He would be pushing for the expansion of Russia whether NATO was moving East or not. Or do you think he would have focused on the greater good of all mankind if NATO wasn't around?
Putin is a psychopath, with ideology deeply rooted in Cold War geopolitics and a belief/desire in/for Russian supremacy, who believes in his heart that Ukraine, the land of his mother's birth, is part of Russia, as it has been for much of history. NATO expansionism onto his doorstep would fuel his paranoia and desire to push back.
You can seek to understand his pov while still acknowledging he is a murderous thug.
I don't think there is much doubt that Putin is a power hungry madman ruling Russia like a Czar.
When he was first elected in 2000, the law allowed for no more than two four year terms for the President. Putin's recent amendment of that law allows him to stay in power until 2036.
Can't fathom your defense of Putin. Sort of like blaming the victim of domestic abuse who didn't cook the steaks to her husband's liking.
If Putin was open to reason wouldn’t he allow opposing points of view in Russia? Doesn’t he silence any opposition?
When has Putin shown he is open and reasonable in previous international negotiations?
Diplomacy is always the ideal option but that requires 2 open minded parties.
When has Putin shown he is open and reasonable in previous international negotiations?
Diplomacy is always the ideal option but that requires 2 open minded parties.
The thing about Nato is that every member has had to apply to get in. Nato does not force countries to join. It’s an organization that countries want to join for their national safety. It is a defensive organization that has never invaded another European country. What threatens Putin is democracy.
Putin is scum. A psychopath. Just wiki human rights in Russia to see how brutal he is to his own people.
Anne Applebaum is the go-to writer on most Ukraine/Russian issues, I think. If you don’t have time the first 15 minutes or so of this conversation provides an excellent window into that world.
Putin is scum. A psychopath. Just wiki human rights in Russia to see how brutal he is to his own people.
Anne Applebaum is the go-to writer on most Ukraine/Russian issues, I think. If you don’t have time the first 15 minutes or so of this conversation provides an excellent window into that world.
studies have shown posting political content on an Internet footy forum,
solves world problems, irrespective of content
Its an outrage Robert Mugabe never won the prize for empathetic white man of the century.
Vladamir Putins has got the 2nd worst case of short man syndrome the world has ever known.
there.
This is the bit that David seems to miss. His claims (like Putin) that NATO is expanding into Eastern Europe is because countries want the security that NATO provides them against Russian imperialism. Russia (and Putin in particular) want the old USSR back together. Putin has stated similar things over the last 20 years on numerous occasions.
In fact just to deter Davids point again that this is NATO's drive. If NATO were driving the expansion to Russias door, why have they repeatedly REJECTED Ukraine's applications to join NATO? Ukraine since they have had a pro-Europe leader, have been desperate to join NATO but NATO have on a number of occasions rejected their applications, hence why Article 5 hasn't been enacted.
There is a reason why the Balkan states WANT to join NATO (and thats not NATO's drive) and thats because the threat of Russian imperialism is reduced with the power of NATO behind them.
This.
If Ukraine say they want to join NATO, who are NATO to say no?
If Russia was a genuine, good faith, democratic member of the international community, what would they have to fear from NATO? NATO probably wouldn't even need to exist. And this is what it boils down to, Russia is not a genuine, good faith, democratic member of the international community.
I think this is what most wars are ... one or more autocrats not happy with his lot in life.
How often to two genuine democracies go to war with each other?
I have been to Latvia. Every local I spoke to said they preferred to learn German or English and not Russian. Wanted to be part of the EU and be as far from Russia's grasp as possible. This was not MSM presenting a biassed pro-western sentiment. It was me, on the ground, talking to everyday people I met. It was quite startling really. Russia have made their bed with their neighbours - they can lie in it.
Ask yourself why Ukraine wants to join NATO and why those other nations joined.
Kicked out of the winter paralympics, n some soccer match n the F1. Not sure how old mate Vlad n his cronies can see their way to existing through all these crippling sanctions.
Bloody dead lucky for Europe n the U.K. that Vlad waited until near enough the end of winter to invade. Just think how bad they'd be freezing their nuts off if they couldn't get any gas or oil off them nasty Russkies if they'd had to go with some fearsome proper sanctions before Xmas.
Reckon old mate Vlad mighta done fairly well for himself skimming his commission from all those greedy oligarch blokes. Mentioned on a news report tonight that he's worth billions. Not to bad for a communist ex KGB officer turned humble pollie. Not to much sharing with the poor down trodden Russkie workers. Now if only someone knew where Vlad n his mates were hiding all their shekels.
Is that the 2022 WC qualifier semi-finals? Both Russia and Ukraine are in.
Could hardly be asking the locals to fight to the last man, the last bullet n then scarper out the back door in a Yankee uber.
