Russia Invades Ukraine

[mrposhman]

Yes, much better to have a rule of law and international agreements and coalitions to prevent or minimise the guy with the gun (Putin) from doing whatever he likes.

The appeasement route you insist on never ends well. It's giving the schoolyard bully what he wants.


And if we hadn't gone to war with Germany most of Europe would be speaking German right now, and we'd likely be speaking Japanese. Both great languages, but I'd prefer them to be optional.

Dunno what history books you read but the errors of the west leading up to WW2 have been extensively documented. Of course, opinions on these differ. Appeasement is one that's often noted.

Exactly. Appeasement worked so well in the 1930's didn't it.

In some ways you can look at Russia in the last 15 years and draw comparables to Germany in the early to mid 1930's.

Russia invaded Crimea, Georgia and Ukraine and we gave them a slap on the wrists, so they go for a much bigger invasion of Ukraine.
Germany invaded parts of France, Czechoslovakia etc and we gave them a slap on the wrists, so they go for a much bigger invasion of Poland and history tells us how the next 6 years went after that.

 

[ceehook2]

thanks to Giardiasis for posting the Youtube link on John Mearsheimer

I've done two of his talks , very good speaker and well worth a listen

 

[tommystigers]

This is a cycle that will never have an end. Assassinations, puppets, coups, wars, false flag invasions, invasions without just cause, insertions, "peacekeeping", whatever the means. We have political, theoretical, financial, economic, and all types of lobbyists, think-tanks, and self serving organisations, throwing wads of cash and blocks of power, enticing and entrapping men and women in governments around the world to do their bidding. And they gobble it up and tie the strings of submission around their own wrists and ankles. The stench is putrid.

Corruption is rampant in every nation. Left, right, or some position in between. It matters not. It is all just a lie.

Sadly. mothers will lose children. We will shed false tears and wail about the horror. And then we will do it all again in another couple of years.
Because nobody really cares; It's not my child.

 

[Harry]

International law only exists if it serves US interests.

 

[AngryAnt]

International law only exists if it serves US interests.

So here's why that's bullshyte, as is all the appeasement/it's the West's fault nonsense that the pro-Putin brigade are pushing.

After WW2 two things happened - one is the West established the EU, and also NATO. This was because, contrary to G-man's line, the West did admit that mistakes were made and we had had to avoid subsequent huge conflicts if at all possible. There was the breakup of Yugoslavia and the conficts between Serbia/Croatia/Kosovo etc, but that was attributable to the end of the Soviet Union.

These two things (EU and NATO) meant we successfully prevented a hot war in Europe for the last 70 years. The contrarians always forget that the EEC/EU was primarily a peace project and economics came second. It worked.

 

[AngryAnt]

This is a cycle that will never have an end. Assassinations, puppets, coups, wars, false flag invasions, invasions without just cause, insertions, "peacekeeping", whatever the means. We have political, theoretical, financial, economic, and all types of lobbyists, think-tanks, and self serving organisations, throwing wads of cash and blocks of power, enticing and entrapping men and women in governments around the world to do their bidding. And they gobble it up and tie the strings of submission around their own wrists and ankles. The stench is putrid.

Corruption is rampant in every nation. Left, right, or some position in between. It matters not. It is all just a lie.

Sadly. mothers will lose children. We will shed false tears and wail about the horror. And then we will do it all again in another couple of years.
Because nobody really cares; It's not my child.

See my last post about peace in Europe for the last 70 years. If you assume that nothing can be done then nothing will be done.

 

[Harry]

And if we hadn't gone to war with Germany most of Europe would be speaking German right now, and we'd likely be speaking Japanese. Both great languages, but I'd prefer them to be optional.

You mean if it wasn't for the Soviets

 

[Harry]

So here's why that's bullshyte, as is all the appeasement/it's the West's fault nonsense that the pro-Putin brigade are pushing.

After WW2 two things happened - one is the West established the EU, and also NATO. This was because, contrary to G-man's line, the West did admit that mistakes were made and we had had to avoid subsequent huge conflicts if at all possible. There was the breakup of Yugoslavia and the conficts between Serbia/Croatia/Kosovo etc, but that was attributable to the end of the Soviet Union.

These two things (EU and NATO) meant we successfully prevented a hot war in Europe for the last 70 years. The contrarians always forget that the EEC/EU was primarily a peace project and economics came second. It worked.

Where were the EU NATO or even the UN when the US illegally invaded Iraq?

 

[Brodders17]

Not the first time the west have backed nazis.

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law...

www.reuters.com

Western Media Fall in Lockstep for Neo-Nazi Publicity Stunt in Ukraine - FAIR

Media resolve the issue of the integration of neo-Nazis into the Ukrainian military by ignoring this inconvenient fact altogether.

fair.org

Russian military operation puts the spotlight on Ukraine’s neo-Nazis: What you need to know about them

Neo-Nazis, whose roots in Ukraine extend to their collaboration with Hitler during World War II, have a free run in the country. That may not last

www.firstpost.com

yep, even the former prez of the US backed them:

Trump told chief of staff Hitler ‘did a lot of good things’, book says

Remark shocked John Kelly, author Michael Bender reports, detailing former president’s ‘stunning disregard for history’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Harry]

This is a cycle that will never have an end. Assassinations, puppets, coups, wars, false flag invasions, invasions without just cause, insertions, "peacekeeping", whatever the means. We have political, theoretical, financial, economic, and all types of lobbyists, think-tanks, and self serving organisations, throwing wads of cash and blocks of power, enticing and entrapping men and women in governments around the world to do their bidding. And they gobble it up and tie the strings of submission around their own wrists and ankles. The stench is putrid.

Corruption is rampant in every nation. Left, right, or some position in between. It matters not. It is all just a lie.

Sadly. mothers will lose children. We will shed false tears and wail about the horror. And then we will do it all again in another couple of years.
Because nobody really cares; It's not my child.

Correct. It's bizarre some can sit behind a keyboard and say Putin Bad, US EU NATO Good. All world leaders are corrupt power hungry *smile* who all have blood on their hands. Liberal democracy is a smokescreen to get the masses on side so the power hungry gain more power.

 

[AngryAnt]

You mean if it wasn't for the Soviets

True, Operation Barbarossa - Hitler's nutso plan to conquer the Soviet Union was critical in terms of overextending the Wehrmact- but you have to remember Stalin would have stayed out of it until they did that. Western resistance from the allies was critical up to that point.

I'm thinking you are basically a Kremlin operative these days Harry, you've really bought in to the whole Putin deal.

 

[AngryAnt]

Where were the EU NATO or even the UN when the US illegally invaded Iraq?

Yes, we know that the Iraq invasion was illegal - I remember marching against it when you would have been sitting on your arse at home Hazza.

Iraq however isn't part of Europe so my claim that the EU and NATO preserved peace in Europe for 70 years still stands buddy.

 

[AngryAnt]

yep, even the former prez of the US backed them:

Trump told chief of staff Hitler ‘did a lot of good things’, book says

Remark shocked John Kelly, author Michael Bender reports, detailing former president’s ‘stunning disregard for history’

www.theguardian.com

Trump also thinks Putin is a "genius" so there you go

 

[Harry]

Dan Murphy banning Russian vodka. It's all over for Putin.

 

[Harry]

Yes, we know that the Iraq invasion was illegal - I remember marching against it when you would have been sitting on your arse at home Hazza.

Iraq however isn't part of Europe so my claim that the EU and NATO preserved peace in Europe for 70 years still stands buddy.

Again international law doesn’t exist if it doesn't serve US interest but we are ok with being led by the nose by them.

 

[Brodders17]

Dan Murphy banning Russian vodka. It's all over for Putin.

where are they going to put all the wasted stock? is it worth going through their bins?

 

[AngryAnt]

Again international law doesn’t exist if it doesn't serve US interest but we are ok with being led by the nose by them.

You'd have to ask your mate John Howard why he went along with the illegal invasion of Iraq. And you'd have to ask the EU why they are helping Ukraine, regardless of international law.

I stood up against the invasion of Iraq Harry, what did you do? NOTHING. We have choices in life - stand up for what we believe, even if it doesn't work, or sit on your arse wringing your hands saying "they are all the same, so no point doing anything". Your choice pal.

Interesting to see how the far right now feels they have more in common with Putin that the EU. The Trumpists have gone the same way - now they are spouting "Ukraine are undemocratic Nazis" propaganda which appears to have gotten some traction in this thread.

 

[Sintiger]

Yeah going to war with Germany in WW2 was a great idea, tens of millions dead, cities annihilated, lives ruined. The west still doesn't admit any fault in the causes of WW2, it's just all Hitler's fault. Sounds eerily familiar.

Mmmm. There were lots of reasons why WW2 happened many of them sprouted by Hitler himself. The onerous terms of the treaty of Versailles was one which was true in fact and caused a lot of economic hardship and perhaps unnecessary vilification of Germany for too long. But Hitler also used the excuse that ethic Germans lived in the Sudetenland which was part of Czechoslovakia , in Austria, in the Danzig area of Poland and many of those areas had historically been German territory. Sound familiar?
Of course there were reasons that the allies contributed to but none of that justified the holocaust, the annexation of France, Holland or Belgium and many others.
I hate war, it rarely solves anything, but if there is ever an argument that it was justified WW2 is it. Hitler saw himself as the Kaiser of a German empire presiding over lesser beings than the aryan race, no actions by others justifies that sort of evil.
Run your argument on shared responsibility for wars, I accept there is truth in it, but don’t use Hitler as an example please.

 

[Sintiger]

Personally I have no doubt this is a shared responsibility conflict, we can argue about the percentages.
However I fail to see how any of that justifies an invasion, Russian tanks in Ukrainian streets, the deaths and suffering of innocent people.
The US and the “west” bears a lot of responsibility for conflict over many years, I agree with that. The one that burns for me the most is the responsibility the US had for the rise of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. But I am yet to see an argument that convinces me that invasion of Ukraine and all the suffering that will bring was justified by any level of shared responsibility.
We can argue about responsibility for the dispute but there is only one country waging a war and that is Russia.

 

[tigermike]

I really do get very sick of this.

Where the f*ck have I said that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is legitimate? You can hide behind the mealy-mouthed terms like "make it sound like you are saying" but it is your deficient reading of the posts which give you this impression.

Now, to NATO. Yeah, NATO is really showing that if Russia attacks Ukraine they are taking on a lot of other countries as well. Bulls*it, Russia have attacked Ukraine and NATO troops are nowhere to be seen in Ukraine. Russia knew this as they don't want to take on NATO as NATO includes the USA and they don't want a war with the USA. The USA knows this as Russia has nukes and they don't want a war with Russia.

What also drives me crazy with all of this is the way the West keeps raving on about the "rules-based order" in the context of Russia invading Ukraine. But when it comes to selling weapons to Saudi Arabia who are bombing the crap out of Yemen the "rules-based order" in conveniently forgotten. When it came to invading Iraq, the "rules-based order" was just a minor inconvenience to be ignored.

Putin is an authoritarian *smile*, which is why you seek to limit his actions. But all this hand wringing over a country being invaded is hypocrisy. If the West wants to be critical of imperialist behaviour, maybe it should stop doing it too.

DS

Putin was so concerned about Ukraine joining NATO that he invaded Ukraine before this could happen. You say that NATO is doing nothing but what can NATO do since Ukraine is not part of their alliance? Rather than muddy the waters by bringing in other terrorist conflicts like Iraq, how about just focussing on a tyrant bully bulldozing his way into a country whose people were living peacefully going about their everyday lives and posing no threat to Russia at all.