Bingo. Would you sign up with the warm and fuzzy woke EU or the Putin/Russia/Djokovic/Serbia evil alliance of corruption and anti-vaxxers.
Not even a choice
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Russia Invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
Bingo. Would you sign up with the warm and fuzzy woke EU or the Putin/Russia/Djokovic/Serbia evil alliance of corruption and anti-vaxxers.
Not even a choice
After the Cold War Russia's economy was handed to the oligarchs by that *smile* Yeltsin, who also chose his successor.
MrPoshman, it is not all you hear here that it is all NATO's fault, that is all you notice. No-one has said it is all NATO's fault, you need to read full sentences.
But I'll ask my questions of a few pages ago: Do you think it was wise of the USA and NATO to overthrow the government in Ukraine, to tear up the Minsk Accords, to keep pushing and pushing against Russia exactly where Russia would feel most threatened? Personally I don't think this was a good idea and I do think it has contributed to the current situation.
Does that absolve Putin and Russia of blame? FFS, what a stupid question, of course it doesn't. Putin and Russia decided to invade, clearly they are the ones with the lion's share of the blame. I don't even think it was a good strategic decision by Russia.
DS
MrPoshman, it is not all you hear here that it is all NATO's fault, that is all you notice. No-one has said it is all NATO's fault, you need to read full sentences.
But I'll ask my questions of a few pages ago: Do you think it was wise of the USA and NATO to overthrow the government in Ukraine, to tear up the Minsk Accords, to keep pushing and pushing against Russia exactly where Russia would feel most threatened? Personally I don't think this was a good idea and I do think it has contributed to the current situation.
Does that absolve Putin and Russia of blame? FFS, what a stupid question, of course it doesn't. Putin and Russia decided to invade, clearly they are the ones with the lion's share of the blame. I don't even think it was a good strategic decision by Russia.
DS
You are speaking like Ukraine is a united country that seeks a European future. No doubt a large portion does, however it is a deeply corrupt and divided country (just so we’re clear Russia is also deeply corrupt) and there are many Russian people that live there that want to be part of Russia. Crimea I think it is fairly clear wants to be part of Russia but Ukraine won’t give it up. The Donbas is highly contested there are most certainly a lot of people that don’t want to be part of Ukraine. Instead of letting them have a voice, Ukrainian sovereignty is more important to the west.
The coup in 2014 which was supported by the US government ousted a pro-Russian leader. According to the US the coup protestors needed to have their voice heard. When Donbas protestors did the same thing, well in this case according to the US the Ukraine government had to restore order. It is absolute hypocrisy to blast Russia for supporting the Ukrainian Russians in Donbas but turning a blind eye to the US supporting Ukrainians against Ukrainian Russians, including some quite awful people with national socialist views. Both sides are bad actors. Have a look at the videos I posted earlier it shows real life footage of Ukraine in 2014. Absolute bedlam and just a huge pent up rage amongst the people that live there.
What the West is doing now is a tragedy, they are giving false hope to Ukrainians and providing them support that will just see more Ukrainians dead. They can’t hope to defeat Russia and if they don’t give in to Russian demands the Russians will obliterate them. Western leaders are complete idiots, we need some damn adults to tell the Ukrainians they need to back the hell up and see reason. What I’m most fearful of is our idiot leaders bungling us into war with Russia. This will lead to nuclear confrontation, something that has to be avoided. It sucks that Ukrainian sovereignty has to be constrained but the alternative is unacceptable.
Putin could have moved into one or more provinces that had good pro Russian support under the guise of peace keeping , but it seems clear now he wanted/wants the whole country in deceive action .
If Russia steps outside the boundaries of Ukraine , Belarus & Russia that would start conflict with NATO & possibly the US , hardly a bold statement , at this stage I don't think Putin will do that
BUT if anti Putin sentiment rises too much inside Russia and/or China pulls back and starts to criticise who knows
On Reddit yesterday I saw a quote from US Senator Graham saying after a defense briefing they expect a scorched earth outcome , it didn't look alarmist or melodramatic, just as realistic assessment as they could make
Is Putin and Russia now backed into something of a corner ? They can't stop now ,they have to portray themselves as powerful , ruthless and possibly having no mercy so the message goes to the world "we are back , we are very powerful and we don't take *smile* from anyone" and they'll do that by not accepting any peace deals until they have destroyed large parts of the country and hunted down and killed anyone that was linked to any government roles
All countries are divided somewhat in terms of political thinking. Whether that be in the US (between Repbulican / Democrats), or in Australia / UK between our own versions of that (Libs and Nats vs Labour). Not everyone has the same political leanings so you can only lead to the majority.
Heck even the UK where I am from, the Scots don't really even what to be known as Brits, they feel their identify is being Scottish rather than British. You get the same with the Welsh and the Northern Irish. There is no scenario where everyone feels the same, hence why you have free elections whereby the majority rule is what leads.
Your final paragraph is quite frankly a joke. So Ukrainians, who believe in their country and want their country to succeed should just give up and just take whatever their punishment is. If Putin really just wanted to do what you say and provide a voice to the Donbas region and stop the alleged genocide of Russian supporters in the region, he could have purely invaded the Donbas region as a peacekeeping force. I suspect if that happened, the world would have reacted differently. A full scale assault on the whole of Ukraine was only ever going to result in this scenario and you just simply cannot give in to this type of thing. If the world gave in, what do you think China then do??
Again false equivalence. Scots and English aren't killing each other. The division in Ukraine is on a different plane of existence. Procedures of political succession are paramount here, not supporting Ukraine's sovereignty of Donbas and Crimea. The Ukraine government responded to calls for that from the Russian Ukrainians by launching war on them with the full support of the west (both economically and militarily).
Yes of course they should, the alternative is death. Putin has many objectives, the ones I listed are the ones that can be justified. Simply taking over the Donbas would not stop Ukraine and their western supporters from fighting Donbas. The only way to stop the fight there is to stop Ukraine from waging war (I'm not trying to justify it morally, just provide Russia's point of view, like I said the most important goal of any state is its security). Russia hasn't launched a full scale assault on the whole of Ukraine, they have targeted their military assets and the seats of Ukrainian political power. This hasn't been a shock and awe campaign of indiscriminate wide scale destruction. Not yet anyway as Russia hopes to avoid that as it will make the situation very difficult for them.
"You just simply cannot give in to the type of thing", this is quite frankly a joke, look at the west's actions here and tell me they have no complicity in this conflict? If you can't give in to this type of thing given the history here, the alternative is nuclear exchange. Under no circumstances can this be accepted. Ukraine is not an existential issue for the west, it is for Russia. If this leads to a nuclear bomb blast, would you not in hindsight think perhaps I should have conceded on something? At the moment the west is not conceding a single thing to Russia. They are telling Ukraine to fight, providing them with
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Not the first time the west have backed nazis.
www.reuters.com
fair.org
www.firstpost.com
Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law...
www.reuters.com
Western Media Fall in Lockstep for Neo-Nazi Publicity Stunt in Ukraine - FAIR
Media resolve the issue of the integration of neo-Nazis into the Ukrainian military by ignoring this inconvenient fact altogether.
fair.org
Russian military operation puts the spotlight on Ukraine’s neo-Nazis: What you need to know about them
Neo-Nazis, whose roots in Ukraine extend to their collaboration with Hitler during World War II, have a free run in the country. That may not last
I disagree, not to upset and threaten but to make countries like Russia realise that when they decide to do what they are doing now, using force to invade another European country, then they are taking on a lot of other countries as well. Perhaps it is singling out Russia but which other European countries would be stupid enough to do what Russia is doing now? NATO knows who the likely troublemakers are for upsetting world peace and so do we. It's all very well to give some background on what NATO has done but do not make it sound like you are saying Russia's invasion is legitimate because there is no excuse for it. The Russian delegates blatantly lie when confronted with residential bombing damage and civillian casualties so what hope is there in peace talks. Putin only understands one thing and that's military force and that's how he will be stopped and God help humanity.
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Yep, Ukraine has a disgusting history of Nazi Collaboration along with France and most of Europe.Not the first time the west have backed nazis.
Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law...
Western Media Fall in Lockstep for Neo-Nazi Publicity Stunt in Ukraine - FAIR
Media resolve the issue of the integration of neo-Nazis into the Ukrainian military by ignoring this inconvenient fact altogether.
Russian military operation puts the spotlight on Ukraine’s neo-Nazis: What you need to know about them
Neo-Nazis, whose roots in Ukraine extend to their collaboration with Hitler during World War II, have a free run in the country. That may not last
Just about every country in the world has a problem with neo-Nazis and the like. They a huge part of the leadership of Anti Vax, pro Trump and similar movements the world over.
Amazing how quickly libertarians abandon their principles as soon the real world comes into play.
Those claiming that letting Putin annex a whole other country is just "unfortunate" and "realpolitik" would have been saying the same about Hitler and Poland at the start of WWI.
I haven't abandoned any principles. If a robber puts a gun to your head, you don't condone theft by giving him your wallet.
Yeah going to war with Germany in WW2 was a great idea, tens of millions dead, cities annihilated, lives ruined. The west still doesn't admit any fault in the causes of WW2, it's just all Hitler's fault. Sounds eerily familiar.
Weird that you bring up WW2 but are pushing for inaction on Ukraine.
It was exactly inaction in the mid 1930's that caused WW2 to be as deadly and prolonged as it actually ended up being.
So other than inaction, what did the west did that was so bad, that would be similar effect to what Hitler did?
Yes, much better to have a rule of law and international agreements and coalitions to prevent or minimise the guy with the gun (Putin) from doing whatever he likes.
The appeasement route you insist on never ends well. It's giving the schoolyard bully what he wants.
And if we hadn't gone to war with Germany most of Europe would be speaking German right now, and we'd likely be speaking Japanese. Both great languages, but I'd prefer them to be optional.
Dunno what history books you read but the errors of the west leading up to WW2 have been extensively documented. Of course, opinions on these differ. Appeasement is one that's often noted.
I really do get very sick of this.
Where the f*ck have I said that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is legitimate? You can hide behind the mealy-mouthed terms like "make it sound like you are saying" but it is your deficient reading of the posts which give you this impression.
Now, to NATO. Yeah, NATO is really showing that if Russia attacks Ukraine they are taking on a lot of other countries as well. Bulls*it, Russia have attacked Ukraine and NATO troops are nowhere to be seen in Ukraine. Russia knew this as they don't want to take on NATO as NATO includes the USA and they don't want a war with the USA. The USA knows this as Russia has nukes and they don't want a war with Russia.
What also drives me crazy with all of this is the way the West keeps raving on about the "rules-based order" in the context of Russia invading Ukraine. But when it comes to selling weapons to Saudi Arabia who are bombing the crap out of Yemen the "rules-based order" in conveniently forgotten. When it came to invading Iraq, the "rules-based order" was just a minor inconvenience to be ignored.
Putin is an authoritarian *smile*, which is why you seek to limit his actions. But all this hand wringing over a country being invaded is hypocrisy. If the West wants to be critical of imperialist behaviour, maybe it should stop doing it too.
DS
