Russia Invades Ukraine

[Giardiasis]

I know that. Thats the reason why UKRAINE WANTED TO JOIN NATO. Your rhetoric (and Davids), is that because NATO have tried to push Ukraine to join NATO this is happening, but this is the exact reason why those Balkan states WANT to join NATO, to provide that deterrence to Russia.

In the similarity to Domestic Violence, Ukraine called the police, and their attacker has attacked them for it.

No you don't, you keep making moral arguments. Have you spent any time whatsoever trying to look at this from Russia's side? Using false equivalence reasoning will muddle your mind and you will ignore the reality on the ground. Your rhetoric (and the western propaganda machine) is just Putin/Russia is bad bad bad, but yeah he is bad, but that doesn't mean you push him on Ukraine, which is an existential threat to him when Ukraine is 100% not an existential threat to us. The US and NATO continue to do that and they are putting us all at grave risk.

 

[Giardiasis]

You forget Ukraine isn't alone. Other countries will band together in support (already started) and it may be Russia will regret taking the action it has. Who may end up getting the biggest whack - the Russian people.

This is an existential issue to Russia, they won't regret defending vital interests. It is the west who will regret pushing them on this. If NATO bands together to support Ukraine militarily then it is basically midnight on the nuclear clock. Listen to what Putin said about this point:

"Now a few important, very important words for those who may be tempted to intervene in ongoing events. Whoever tries to hinder us, and even more so to create threats for our country, for our people, should know that Russia’s response will be immediate and will lead you to such consequences that you have never experienced in your history. We are ready for any development of events. All necessary decisions in this regard have been made. I hope that I will be heard."

 

[Baloo]

How long before Putin tries to take out Musk's Starlink satellites?

 

[Baloo]

Here's Zelensky in his comedian days performing "Cossacks", taking the *smile* out of the Russians. Can't imagine this would be on Putin's playlist....

 

[mrposhman]

This is an existential issue to Russia, they won't regret defending vital interests. It is the west who will regret pushing them on this. If NATO bands together to support Ukraine militarily then it is basically midnight on the nuclear clock. Listen to what Putin said about this point:

"Now a few important, very important words for those who may be tempted to intervene in ongoing events. Whoever tries to hinder us, and even more so to create threats for our country, for our people, should know that Russia’s response will be immediate and will lead you to such consequences that you have never experienced in your history. We are ready for any development of events. All necessary decisions in this regard have been made. I hope that I will be heard."

Thats assuming you think that the reasoning for this is actually due to the apparent "threat" of NATO.

It makes no sense to me to consider this as the real reasoning. If Putin wants to stop or reduce the amount of NATO troops and weaponry on his border, then invading another country will not do that, in fact it will do the total opposite. The amount of permanent NATO troops in Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Romania etc will rise dramatically.

Now you can look at this in 2 ways. Putin is an idiot, and doesn't think the above will happen. For me, I don't believe that, Putin doesn't strike me as an idiot.

So logic tells you, that the above IS NOT the reason for the invasion but is being used as propaganda for the invasion.

Putin has said on numerous occasions about historical Russian borders, he barely recognises that Ukraine should have autonomy from Russia. I believe that the base of this invasion (as poorly thought out as that is) is that I believe this has imperialism at the heart of the decision.

You can try and put words in my mouth and assume I haven't looked at it from Russias POV, but I have. I just don't believe the whole story about this being done to stop and reduce NATO's military influence in Eastern Europe, as this action will only have the impact that it has the opposite affect to what Putin wants.

 

[tigersnake]

Putin has lost the plot. Beginning of the end for him, but the end will probably take a while. Painted himself into a corner. Emboldened by the demise of the US, in conviction and unity if not in capability, but didn't bank on the strong unified global response, which was always going to happen, and also luke warm at best support from those he leads. His cost benefit analysis was completely out of whack. Scary situation to have a crazy crybaby bully with his finger on the button.

 

[Giardiasis]

Thats assuming you think that the reasoning for this is actually due to the apparent "threat" of NATO.

It makes no sense to me to consider this as the real reasoning. If Putin wants to stop or reduce the amount of NATO troops and weaponry on his border, then invading another country will not do that, in fact it will do the total opposite. The amount of permanent NATO troops in Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Romania etc will rise dramatically.

Now you can look at this in 2 ways. Putin is an idiot, and doesn't think the above will happen. For me, I don't believe that, Putin doesn't strike me as an idiot.

So logic tells you, that the above IS NOT the reason for the invasion but is being used as propaganda for the invasion.

Putin has said on numerous occasions about historical Russian borders, he barely recognises that Ukraine should have autonomy from Russia. I believe that the base of this invasion (as poorly thought out as that is) is that I believe this has imperialism at the heart of the decision.

You can try and put words in my mouth and assume I haven't looked at it from Russias POV, but I have. I just don't believe the whole story about this being done to stop and reduce NATO's military influence in Eastern Europe, as this action will only have the impact that it has the opposite affect to what Putin wants.

The Russian position is to stop the Eastern expansion of NATO in Georgia and Ukraine. They fought Georgia over it and now they are fighting Ukraine over it. Russia allowed the Baltic states to join NATO, they aren't arguing for them to be kicked out from it. They might not have liked it but it wasn't an existential issue for Russia like Ukraine is.

Your argument about imperialism does not address the core issue here. Every powerful country seeks imperialism, so what?

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Putin has lost the plot. Beginning of the end for him, but the end will probably take a while. Painted himself into a corner. Emboldened by the demise of the US, in conviction and unity if not in capability, but didn't bank on the strong unified global response, which was always going to happen, and also luke warm at best support from those he leads. His cost benefit analysis was completely out of whack. Scary situation to have a crazy crybaby bully with his finger on the button.

I think also he was emboldened and overconfident after relative successes in Syria, Chechnya and Georgia. Hence why he has overplayed his hand this time.

 

[spook]

The worry is that Putin really has lost his marbles and if facing defeat will take Europe/the US down with him by setting off the nukes.

A touch of levity needed after that:

 

[mrposhman]

The Russian position is to stop the Eastern expansion of NATO in Georgia and Ukraine. They fought Georgia over it and now they are fighting Ukraine over it. Russia allowed the Baltic states to join NATO, they aren't arguing for them to be kicked out from it. They might not have liked it but it wasn't an existential issue for Russia like Ukraine is.

Your argument about imperialism does not address the core issue here. Every powerful country seeks imperialism, so what?

So you have to ask yourself, why is it so different having Ukraine part of NATO compared to the other states that also border them? Is it because they are not as important as they don't have gas pipelines running through them? Is it because they have less mineral resources?

There is much more to this then purely NATO, but keep buying all the Koolaid you want.

 

[Giardiasis]

So you have to ask yourself, why is it so different having Ukraine part of NATO compared to the other states that also border them? Is it because they are not as important as they don't have gas pipelines running through them? Is it because they have less mineral resources?

There is much more to this then purely NATO, but keep buying all the Koolaid you want.

Yes for sure it is of greater economic importance to Russia than the baltic states. It also has ethnic Russians at war with the Ukrainian government since the 2014 coup. It also has a leader that suggested Ukraine should get nukes. It also has much greater historical ties with Russian sovereignty claims.

Of course there is more to this than NATO, but it is the primary security concern in question.

Regarding your argument about imperialism, so what?

 

[Brodders17]

The Russian position is to stop the Eastern expansion of NATO in Georgia and Ukraine. They fought Georgia over it and now they are fighting Ukraine over it. Russia allowed the Baltic states to join NATO, they aren't arguing for them to be kicked out from it. They might not have liked it but it wasn't an existential issue for Russia like Ukraine is.

Your argument about imperialism does not address the core issue here. Every powerful country seeks imperialism, so what?

So Russia dont like a decision Ukraine have made so they invade them?
Does Russia have a right to decide what countries around them do?

 

[Brodders17]

False equivalence. Ukraine doesn’t have a police force to protect it stronger than the abuser, nor an exit option of leaving the relationship.

Foreign affairs are governed by power, repeat after me, foreign affairs are governed by power. It is fair? No. What happens if you ignore that reality and ignore the security concerns of a bigger neighbour? You get whacked.

Are you suggesting there is no power imbalance in relationships? and that police are an effective deterrence to DV?

your argument that Ukraine's actions led to them being invaded would in other circumstances be called "victim blaming".

 

[Giardiasis]

Does Russia have a right to decide what countries around them do?

No, but again moral points are irrelevant here.

 

[Baloo]

Ideally Putin could just skip to the point where he kills himself in a bunker.

 

[Giardiasis]

Are you suggesting there is no power imbalance in relationships? and that police are an effective deterrence to DV?

your argument that Ukraine's actions led to them being invaded would in other circumstances be called "victim blaming".

More false equivalence. Stick to the issue at hand instead of trying to make sense of this from a domestic violence POV.

 

[Harry]

Yeah, the domestic violence analogies are absurd. There's no right or wrong in a war. Both parties always have a self determined reason for going to war and the victor will write the history books and determine who was right. Currently the West POV is Putin is a madman who unjustifiably invaded a sovereign Ukraine. The Russian's POV is Ukraine are committing genocide to Russians in Ukraine, are a direct threat to their national security and regime change must take place before Ukraine get WMD's (eerily similar to US's justification to invade Iraq).

 

[mrposhman]

Yeah, the domestic violence analogies are absurd. There's no right or wrong in a war. Both parties always have a self determined reason for going to war and the victor will write the history books and determine who was right. Currently the West POV is Putin is a madman who unjustifiably invaded a sovereign Ukraine. The Russian's POV is Ukraine are committing genocide to Russians in Ukraine, are a direct threat to their national security and regime change must take place before Ukraine get WMD's (eerily similar to US's justification to invade Iraq).

So where is the proof of any genocide? I know Putin has used this (with no evidence) and you've repeated it a number of times, so what genocide??

 

[Tigers of Old]

The worry is that Putin really has lost his marbles and if facing defeat will take Europe/the US down with him by setting off the nukes.

At least we saw 3 Premierships before it happened lol.

 

[Baloo]

Both parties always have a self determined reason for going to war and the victor will write the history books and determine who was right.

If Russian stops fighting there will be no war.
If Ukraine stops fighting there will be no Ukraine.

Ukraine didn't "go to war". Ukraine are defending themselves.