Palestine and Israel

[Willo]

I have said many times that the only way to destroy groups like that is by taking away the reason they exist. It's like what was said in the clip, treat Hamas as the reason and you won't succeed, you have to treat them as the symptom

Peace is the only way. ( btw I am not saying it is easy)

The provisional IRA is the perfect example

With all due respect that had already been tried. And failed. And each side has been blamed.

But getting to the nitty gritty, if it wasn’t Hamas, it would have been another group with another name.ISIL, Islamic brotherhood, PLO, Fatah, Black September. I know they haven’t just operated in one country but most have the same ideals.
Death to the Jews, eradication of Israel, death to the west etc.

They’ve always been around since the day dot. The same objectives, just a different name.
You can’t just unwind or go back 37 years to when Hamas was founded. Before that other terror grouped operated as you well know.
So to say “undertake peace talks”. Israel never had a chance since 1948 when they were attacked immediately they became a state.
When peace talks have eventuated, those years of mistrust haven’t helped either cause.
We all know the history.

Hamas were never going to settle for peace talks ever. It’s written in their manifesto. “No peace! No existence ! Total death to all Jews everywhere and the eradication of Israel”
I think that makes it quite plain. So that’s the last 37 years of Hamas. (.Founded in 1987) they took over Gaza in 2007.

When were they going to sit down for peace talks?
It certainly wasn’t going to be with Hamas. So who was going to take part?

So as you say, it wouldn’t be easy. It would have been impossible. A pipe dream. As the results have shown.
It’s easy to say “sit down and talk peace”. But it takes more than one party to come to the table.


The situation with the IRA was complex, but different. Some similarities but a lot of differences to the middle east. Which I won’t go into as there’s enough to deal with in this topic.

 

[Willo]

If people are for what Israel is doing, (Bombing hospitals. Bombing schools. Bombing mosques. Bombing refugee camps) then they do not care about the children.

It's not that hard to work out.

Not engaging with you resumed, so please don't address me, I have no interest in what you have to say.

*smile* once again.
Certainly. I don’t give a fig what you have to say either. Just pointing out the *smile* you sprout.
Two way street. Write facts not lies

 

[TigerMasochist]

I'll pull you up on this one - why are you singling out Africa and the Middle East? In terms of Africa - 2 wars between states since independence of most of the countries, hardly a hotbed of conflict.

The Middle East problems are a lot to do with colonisation and meddling by the west, not least allowing Israel to be established on a land with people.

Geez, the USA would have been involved in more wars than all the Middle East and African countries put together over the last 50-70 years.

DS

I'll happily agree with you that the Septics love involving themselves in pretty much everyone else's rumbles. Gotta be a chief arse kicker somewhere. Mind you, they'd rather have someone else involved these days. They're sick of having to risk their arses all the time pretending to be the good guys.
Yep. the " Western world " and colonisation is to blame for everything happening in the world today. All them Mongol, Roman, Macedonian, Norsemen, British, Spanish, Dutch, French, Portugese way back when just indiscriminately exploring around invading everywhere n trying to bring their ideas of civilisation to the rest of the world have just totally *smile* everything for everybody.

Somalia, Sth Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, D R Congo, Ethiopia, Uganda, Rwanda, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Burko Fasina, Mozambique, Libya. There's probably plenty more that I haven't noted that have been or are still involved in civil wars n uprisings or punching on with the neighbours that are destroying their countries.

Iran, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Turkiye, Palestine, Lebanon. There's probably, note I said probably been a few other countries involved that I can't think of off the top of my head. But again these have all or still are involved in regional conflicts in fairly recent times.

Ooooh FMD. SSSDatsun pull your head out of your arse and have a look past the end of your nose. I'm not singling out anyone for any reason other than to point out that there's a massive load of all in brawling going on right through those areas. Some reasonably recent for an old fart like me n quite a few been ongoing for years.

*smile*. How did I forget to put Afghanistan in here? That Tallybones mob have been so desperate to drag their country back into feudal times n dark ages they've flogged the suitcase out of the Russkies and the Yanks in recent years.

 

[K3]

*smile* once again.
Certainly. I don’t give a fig what you have to say either. Just pointing out the *smile* you sprout.
Two way street. Write facts not lies

Where was the lie? I can link up hundreds of videos of people saying how happy they are that children are dying.

You are always quick to play the man, but so far haven't backed anything up.

So again... where did I lie?

 

[K3]

*smile* once again.
Certainly. I don’t give a fig what you have to say either. Just pointing out the *smile* you sprout.
Two way street. Write facts not lies

So... you don't care what I write BUT are replying directly do it.

Hypocrite much?

 

[TigerMasochist]

I thought I might block your driveway as a protest against all these wars, I am an activist after all.
Can you send me your address ?

Nah.
If I sent you my address n you rocked up to block my driveway I'd take to ya with a serious lump of 4 by 2 to ensure ya got the *smile* out of my way. Then you'd be messed up n I'd be in deep *smile* with the plod. Lose / lose situation. How about we just make do with yelling at one another over the internet as a harmless alternative.

 

[Sintiger]

How about we just make do with yelling at one another over the internet as a harmless alternative.

Can’t be bothered. World’s stuffed anyway so no point.

Gotta go now, got an appointment blocking the west gate bridge.

Thanks for suggesting this TM, I’m having so much fun.

 

[Willo]

I agree and Israel have pissed away the perfect way to get rid of Hamas and that was the West Bank. If they proved that they could work with the PLO and develop the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank, then their focus is on showing Palestinians in Gaza that there is a different way, ie. not the Hamas path.

BUT Israel don't see that opportunity, just the opportunity for army sanctioned removal of Palestinians from their homes, and replacement with Israelis.

That’s the biggest problem mrposh.
There is no one to work with. Too much corruption.
The old saying. Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Hamas hasn’t held an election since 2007. The PA hasn’t had a voice in Gaza since
Neither party wants to give up power.

Hamas even went to war with Fatah in Gaza. Hamas couldn’t even work with its own kind. They killed them and booted them out of Gaza.
Peace talks with Hamas? Come on.
Fatah, most people distrust and hate Abbas in the West Bank. who will negotiate?

The Palestinian people can’t even sort out their own representatives. Or they haven’t been given much of a chance to.
The UN, useless as it is in moments like these, should gather to get her a multi nation force of Arab countries (Iran excepted) and form a peace keeping force that will enable fair elections for Palestinians.
Until then Hamas and Fatah will/would survive. The status quo would continue.

 

[Willo]

So... you don't care what I write BUT are replying directly do it.

Hypocrite much?

No just pointing out you talk *smile*. It wouldn’t matter anyway, you’re used to talking to yourself.
There must be an echo. You don’t want to engage with me but you continue to do so.
Hypocrite much?

 

[Sintiger]

With all due respect that had already been tried. And failed. And each side has been blamed.

But getting to the nitty gritty, if it wasn’t Hamas, it would have been another group with another name.ISIL, Islamic brotherhood, PLO, Fatah, Black September. I know they haven’t just operated in one country but most have the same ideals.
Death to the Jews, eradication of Israel, death to the west etc.

They’ve always been around since the day dot. The same objectives, just a different name.
You can’t just unwind or go back 37 years to when Hamas was founded. Before that other terror grouped operated as you well know.
So to say “undertake peace talks”. Israel never had a chance since 1948 when they were attacked immediately they became a state.
When peace talks have eventuated, those years of mistrust haven’t helped either cause.
We all know the history.

Hamas were never going to settle for peace talks ever. It’s written in their manifesto. “No peace! No existence ! Total death to all Jews everywhere and the eradication of Israel”
I think that makes it quite plain. So that’s the last 37 years of Hamas. (.Founded in 1987) they took over Gaza in 2007.

When were they going to sit down for peace talks?
It certainly wasn’t going to be with Hamas. So who was going to take part?

So as you say, it wouldn’t be easy. It would have been impossible. A pipe dream. As the results have shown.
It’s easy to say “sit down and talk peace”. But it takes more than one party to come to the table.


The situation with the IRA was complex, but different. Some similarities but a lot of differences to the middle east. Which I won’t go into as there’s enough to deal with in this topic.

I could easily give you a long list of quotes by Israelis about eradication of Palestinians but I really can’t be bothered.

this post is of course completely missing the point. The discussion was about the interview with piers Morgan and that person saying that Israel cannot destroy Hamas by doing what it is doing.

That is undoubtedly true and everything you say above is irrelevant to that point.

Israel knows they can’t destroy Hamas but that isn’t why they are now attacking Gaza. There are 35,000 Hamas fighters according to that interview. You can’t destroy an ideology by killing 35,000 people, in fact it will only strengthen it.

 

[TigerMasochist]

If you get his address I reckon we just bulldoze the house and claim it for ourselves, seems to be ok for Israel to do this and the original occupants are expected to just cop it.

DS

Ahh. But who were actually the original occupants? The Israelis are claiming it was their turf way back in biblical times n they've simply gone back n redeemed what was there's in the first place.

 

[Willo]

Where was the lie? I can link up hundreds of videos of people saying how happy they are that children are dying.

You are always quick to play the man, but so far haven't backed anything up.

So again... where did I lie?

Where you sprouted about people not caring about children being killed or maimed nd the rest of it. You weren’t talking about clips and videos, it was a weak snide little attempt at posters on here.
Now you’re trying to weasel out of it, when you’re called on what you said.

I said no one on PRE has said anything of a sort. Exactly the opposite. If you beg to differ show the posts.

Bit then you sook about “play the man” while you blame all and sundry.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Exactly - if he complains just say it's been going on for thousands of years and there's no point lifting a finger to stop it.

Well yep I could always run away n go elsewhere if I felt like it. Or I could also stay n rip a few heads off too, if that made me feel better. But then I probably couldn't really complain to hard if I got my arse kicked for trying this method.

 

[Willo]

I could easily give you a long list of quotes by Israelis about eradication of Palestinians but I really can’t be bothered.

this post is of course completely missing the point. The discussion was about the interview with piers Morgan and that person saying that Israel cannot destroy Hamas by doing what it is doing.

That is undoubtedly true and everything you say above is irrelevant to that point.

Israel knows they can’t destroy Hamas but that isn’t why they are now attacking Gaza. There are 35,000 Hamas fighters according to that interview. You can’t destroy an ideology by killing 35,000 people, in fact it will only strengthen it.

How is it irrelevant to the point..

I asked you how would it be achieved
You said to engage in peace talks did you not?


I asked who with? It couldn’t be Hamas, according to their doctrine it wasn’t feasible
It couldn’t be Fatah as Hamas killed them and booted them out of Gaza.

So who were the peace talks to be with. It’s a civil and appropriate question..


But it’s usually”irrelevant “ when an answer isn’t available. So all I can take from that is.
So peace talks were never viable.
Hamas kicked it off on oct 7
Israel responded and continues to do so. If no one is left in Gaza and Hamas aren’t there. Israel believes it’s achieved its objective.
Palestinians will respond to all the death and destruction with more death and destruction and the formation of more terror groups.
Those terror groups will operate from somewhere and send more rockets, drones, suicide bombers etc into Israel.
Israel will go after those terror groups.
Wash and repeat.
And innocent civilians..men, women and children on both sides will suffer the worst of it.
it seems like this has played out before in the past, in the present and will in the futre.

“”That person” is really an astute fellow. Maybe he has the solution that is relevant

 

[Willo]

Don't know when it happened but Piers Morgan has been speaking this way for at least the last few months

The argument that is given there about Israel "defeating Hamas" is exactly what many have been saying here, including myself. If Israel wants to defeat Hamas they are going about it the wrong way

How do they do it then? On a permanent a basis?

I have said many times that the only way to destroy groups like that is by taking away the reason they exist. It's like what was said in the clip, treat Hamas as the reason and you won't succeed, you have to treat them as the symptom

Peace is the only way. ( btw I am not saying it is easy)

The provisional IRA is the perfect example

Which is why I asked the question I thought was relevant . Peace talks with who and by who?
Obviously it’s not viable. So it’s not a solution. So Mehdi doesn’t have anything apart what is obvious. That this conflict will go on.

 

[Sintiger]

How is it irrelevant to the point..

I asked you how would it be achieved
You said to engage in peace talks did you not?

Seriously

I posted a comment on that Piers Morgan interview where the point was made that Hamas cannot be destroyed by bombing the *smile* out of Gaza
You asked me what would work and i said
peace
not peace talks ...peace

i.e. stop bombing the *smile* out of Gaza, stop stealing land and killing people in the West bank

Restore some stability and some hope and the people, the 4 million or so Palestinians who are not Hamas fighters will see less value in an organisation that uses violence to fight back . I never said it was easy, in fact I said it was not, but it has a far greater chance of succeeding that what Israel is doing.

Of course the troubles were different, every conflict is different. But the parallel is that the vast majority people want peace, they don't want to live their lives in war and fear. Once peace was achieved for a while in Northern Ireland the people wanted it to stay that way. The pressure was on to create a lasting peace, not a war.

You gave me all the list of Palestinian organisations over the years and all you have done is reinforce the point that was being made in the first place. Destroy one and another one is created, oppress people and leave them with no hope and they fight back.

I'm tired of this conversation, it leads nowhere

 

[Willo]

Seriously

I posted a comment on that Piers Morgan interview where the point was made that Hamas cannot be destroyed by bombing the *smile* out of Gaza
You asked me what would work and i said
peace
not peace talks ...peace

i.e. stop bombing the *smile* out of Gaza, stop stealing land and killing people in the West bank

Restore some stability and some hope and the people, the 4 million or so Palestinians who are not Hamas fighters will see less value in an organisation that uses violence to fight back . I never said it was easy, in fact I said it was not, but it has a far greater chance of succeeding that what Israel is doing.

Of course the troubles were different, every conflict is different. But the parallel is that the vast majority people want peace, they don't want to live their lives in war and fear. Once peace was achieved for a while in Northern Ireland the people wanted it to stay that way. The pressure was on to create a lasting peace, not a war.

You gave me all the list of Palestinian organisations over the years and all you have done is reinforce the point that was being made in the first place. Destroy one and another one is created, oppress people and leave them with no hope and they fight back.

I'm tired of this conversation, it leads nowhere

When I asked what the solution was you said “peace”.
I thought to achieve peace it would mean to have dialogue between the 2 opposing sides.

My mistake. There is no solution on how to achieve peace. And nobody has an answer what or how to deal with Hamas. Only what not to do, which is to do nothing, which isn’t realistic.

I tried to work out how that was going to be possible. Obviously it’s not so Mehdi only stated the obvious without a way to achieve anything.

Yes I did, as I fail to see how it is now possible in the current climate. And I agree, these terror grouped pop everywhere like 3 corner jacks.

You need a rest then if you’re tired and I won’t ask for your opinion. For a while

 

[TigerMasochist]

Seriously

I posted a comment on that Piers Morgan interview where the point was made that Hamas cannot be destroyed by bombing the *smile* out of Gaza
You asked me what would work and i said
peace
not peace talks ...peace

i.e. stop bombing the *smile* out of Gaza, stop stealing land and killing people in the West bank

Restore some stability and some hope and the people, the 4 million or so Palestinians who are not Hamas fighters will see less value in an organisation that uses violence to fight back . I never said it was easy, in fact I said it was not, but it has a far greater chance of succeeding that what Israel is doing.

Of course the troubles were different, every conflict is different. But the parallel is that the vast majority people want peace, they don't want to live their lives in war and fear. Once peace was achieved for a while in Northern Ireland the people wanted it to stay that way. The pressure was on to create a lasting peace, not a war.

You gave me all the list of Palestinian organisations over the years and all you have done is reinforce the point that was being made in the first place. Destroy one and another one is created, oppress people and leave them with no hope and they fight back.

I'm tired of this conversation, it leads nowhere

Funny thing about this " peace " caper. Over recent years Israel has managed to make some reasonable peace with Egypt, Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Jordan. The countries from my limited understanding that it's been a struggle to arrange any form of peace with are where the Iranian backed " terrorists / freedom fighters " pick whatever title you think might be suitable reside. Yep Palestine and Hamas. Lebanon and Hezbollah. Yemen and the Houthis.
Strange how before Oct 7 last year so much of western media were lauding that there was finally some genuine peace and accord building through this region. Right up until such time as the *smile* hit the fan n things got real *smile* ugly.

 

[K3]

Where you sprouted about people not caring about children being killed or maimed nd the rest of it. You weren’t talking about clips and videos, it was a weak snide little attempt at posters on here.
Now you’re trying to weasel out of it, when you’re called on what you said.

I said no one on PRE has said anything of a sort. Exactly the opposite. If you beg to differ show the posts.

Bit then you sook about “play the man” while you blame all and sundry.

You're just showing that you have little comprehension skills.

MY comment didn't mention PRE anywhere, but you took it as an insult to you. Shows a lot hey!

And now you are trying to pass the buck by AGAIN making up bulldust to fit your narrative.

So again, where did I lie? And this time I'll add in, where did I mention PRE?

Just more strawmen and bulldust from you.

Hey, look over there!!!

 

[mrposhman]

That’s the biggest problem mrposh.
There is no one to work with. Too much corruption.
The old saying. Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Hamas hasn’t held an election since 2007. The PA hasn’t had a voice in Gaza since
Neither party wants to give up power.

Hamas even went to war with Fatah in Gaza. Hamas couldn’t even work with its own kind. They killed them and booted them out of Gaza.
Peace talks with Hamas? Come on.
Fatah, most people distrust and hate Abbas in the West Bank. who will negotiate?

The Palestinian people can’t even sort out their own representatives. Or they haven’t been given much of a chance to.
The UN, useless as it is in moments like these, should gather to get her a multi nation force of Arab countries (Iran excepted) and form a peace keeping force that will enable fair elections for Palestinians.
Until then Hamas and Fatah will/would survive. The status quo would continue.

I'm not going to dispute this as you are probably right and ironically its about the only thing you and Sin have agreed to on this, is that corruption is occurring on both sides, but Israel may think that the way towards peace is complete destruction of Hamas and then complete control of the Gaza strip, however all that does is strip hope of a future away from the Palestinians living there. Once you strip hope away, extremism will inevitably increase which I think is the position that Sin has been pushing.

Until the Israelis can show the Palestinians that there is a better future, like the British finally did in Northern Ireland then conflict will remain and as the Palestinians don't really have an army (they have people but its devoid of any quality military equipment), then the only way to fight back is through insurgency like what happened on October 7th.,

Unfortunately until BOTH sides give a lot, we will keep going around in circles, much like the way this thread just goes around in circles.