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Palestine and Israel

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So, Willo, your astute analysis says it is all Hamas' fault, despite the fact that this dispute started decades before Hamas existed, and that there is no solution so people just have to keep getting killed.

You truly are an inspiration to us all.

If the world community, including the USA, declared and were willing to defend the borders of a Palestinian state; and the USA stopped arming Israel, then we would have the start of a real process towards peace. Iran would be irrelevant because they do not have the power to stand up against countries like the USA, it would also take some wind out of their sails in terms of their efforts to influence what goes on in the Middle East.

But, of course, you would prefer that we just let Israel kick the can down the road, keep building settlements so there is less chance of a resolution and we can all see the outcome - more bloodshed, on both sides.

You ask for a solution and then dismiss any solution out of hand. and follow with propaganda, well done, you must be proud of your contribution to this debate.

DS
 
So, Willo, your astute analysis says it is all Hamas' fault, despite the fact that this dispute started decades before Hamas existed, and that there is no solution so people just have to keep getting killed.

You truly are an inspiration to us all.

If the world community, including the USA, declared and were willing to defend the borders of a Palestinian state; and the USA stopped arming Israel, then we would have the start of a real process towards peace. Iran would be irrelevant because they do not have the power to stand up against countries like the USA, it would also take some wind out of their sails in terms of their efforts to influence what goes on in the Middle East.

But, of course, you would prefer that we just let Israel kick the can down the road, keep building settlements so there is less chance of a resolution and we can all see the outcome - more bloodshed, on both sides.

You ask for a solution and then dismiss any solution out of hand. and follow with propaganda, well done, you must be proud of your contribution to this debate.

DS
So David, despite acknowledging that this dispute started decades ago, time and time again,you want to misrepresent my opinion once more. Just like some of the other pro-Pali’s.

Here is what I sated.
THE HAMAS ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7 WAS THE CATALYST FOR ISRAEL INVADING GAZA.
Can you and others comprehend that?
If Hamas didn’t commit those atrocities and kidnapped 200+ people on October 7 then Israel wouldn’t have invaded Gaza.
Can you and others understand that premise?

That is obvious to anybody with an ounce of understanding the situation.

No, a solution is about understanding and comprehending the situation . The solution is about understanding and comprehending the mindset of the proponents. It’s not about pie in the sky, fantasising.
You now want the USA to take a role. Even though you blame them for their support of Israel. Ok.

Disarming Israel? Not supplying them with a means to defend themselves. What planet are you on?
It would NEVER happen.

Ant miss another little snipe can you? Obviously you haven’t studied the Middle East for 35 years.
Iran not relevant. Gee, you really have little understanding of the geopolitical the Middle East.

A solution has to be achievable, feasible and practical. Not wave a magic wand and it happens

You now want a 2 state solution, even though a couple of pages back you said it would never work. I’ll find that post.
 
It can't keep going forever, true.


The most sensible suggestion I have seen is a 2 state confederation with a view to a 1 state solution after a decade or two of 2 states. I can't see any other way forward. If the Palestinian state has to be run by an international group for some years then so be it. But a Palestinian bantustan, ie: a state which has no control over its own security, is not a solution, it is just a continuation of the occupation. 2 separate states at each others' throats cannot work, 1 state is not possible in the short to medium term.

But it cannot go on forever and the only solution must include self determination for Palestinians.

DS
A 2 state confederation, then 1 state after a decade or two of 2 states. Etc etc
2 seperate states at each others throats cannot work. 1 state is not possible in the short to medium term.

Talk about having a Bob each way. 2 #state confederation, then 1 state down the track.
So for how many years is this International peacekeeping force in operation for? Which countries? Who pays the costs?


Then it’s, 2 seperate states at each other throats cannot work.
Do you actually believe that those Palestinians would lay down their weapons and just become peaceniks?
Do you actually believe Israel would agree to disarm or lay their weapons down or not be able to receive arms from the USA. In order to defend itself?

Yes I dismiss the above. As it’s not a solution.
 
March 15, 2024 12:13 PM UTC
Hezbollah tells Iran it would fight alone in any war with Israel
By Samia Nakhoul, Parisa Hafezi, Laila Bassam

With ally Hamas under attack in Gaza, the head of Iran's Quds Force visited Beirut in February to discuss the risk posed if Israel next aims at Lebanon's Hezbollah, an offensive that could severely hurt Tehran's main regional partner, seven sources said.
In Beirut, Quds chief Esmail Qaani met Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, the sources said, for at least the third time since Hamas' deadly Oct. 7 attacks on southern Israel and Israel's devastating retaliatory assault on Gaza.
The conversation turned to the possibility of a full Israeli offensive to its north, in Lebanon, the sources said. As well as damaging the Shi'ite Islamist group, such an escalation could pressure Iran to react more forcefully than it has so far since Oct. 7, three of the sources, Iranians within the inner circle of power, said.
Over the past five months, Hezbollah, a sworn enemy of Israel, has shown support for Hamas in the form of limited volleys of rockets fired across Israel's northern border.
At the previously unreported meeting, Nasrallah reassured Qaani he didn't want Iran to get sucked into a war with Israel or the United States and that Hezbollah would fight on its own, all the sources said.


"This is our fight," Nasrallah told Qaani, said one Iranian source with knowledge of the discussions.


Calibrated to avoid a major escalation, the skirmishes in Lebanon have nonetheless pushed tens of thousands of people from their homes either side of the border. Israeli strikes have killed more than 200 Hezbollah fighters and some 50 civilians in Lebanon, while attacks from Lebanon into Israel have killed a dozen Israeli soldiers and six civilians.


In recent days, Israel's counter-strikes have increased in intensity and reach, fuelling fears the violence could spin out of control even if negotiators achieve a temporary truce in Gaza.


Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant indicatedin February that Israel planned to increase attacks to decisively remove Hezbollah fighters from the border in the event of a Gaza ceasefire, although he left the door open for diplomacy.


In 2006, Israel fought a short but intense air and ground war with Hezbollah that was devastating for Lebanon.


Israeli security sources have said previously that Israel did not seek any spread of hostilities but added that the country was prepared to fight on new fronts if needed. An all-our war on its northern border would stretch Israel’s military resources.


Iran and Hezbollah are mindful of the grave perils of a wider war in Lebanon, two of the sources aligned with the views of the government in Tehran said, including the danger it could spread and lead to strikes on Iran's nuclear installations.


The U.S. lists Iran as a state sponsor of terrorism and has sought for years to rein in Tehran's nuclear program. Israel has long considered Iran an existential threat. Iran denies it is seeking a nuclear weapon.


For this story, Reuters spoke to four Iranian and two regional sources, along with a Lebanese source who confirmed the thrust of the meeting. Two U.S. sources and an Israeli source said Iran wanted to avoid blowback from a Israel-Hezbollah war. All requested anonymity to discuss sensitive matters.


The U.S. State Department, Israel's government, Tehran and Hezbollah did not respond to requests for comment.


The Beirut meeting highlights strain on Iran's strategy of avoiding major escalation in the region while projecting strength and support for Gaza across the Middle East through allied armed groups in Iraq, Syria and Yemen, analysts said.


Qaani and Nasrallah "want to further insulate Iran from the consequences of supporting an array of proxy actors throughout the Middle East." said Jon Alterman of Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, responding to a question about the meeting.


"Probably because they assess that the possibility of military action in Lebanon is increasing and not decreasing."


Already, Tehran's carefully-nurtured influence in the region is being curtailed, including by Israel's offensive against Hamas along with potential U.S.-Saudi defence and Israel-Saudi normalisation agreements, as well as U.S. warnings that Iran should not get involved in the Hamas-Israel conflict.


IN ISRAEL'S SIGHTS


Qaani and Nasrallah between them hold sway over tens of thousands of fighters and a vast arsenal of rockets and missiles. They are main protagonists in Tehran's network of allies and proxy militias, with Qaani's elite Quds Force acting as the foreign legion of Iran's Revolutionary Guards.


While Hezbollah has publicly indicated it would halt attacks on Israel when the Israeli offensive in Gaza stops, U.S. Special Envoy Amos Hochstein said last week a Gaza truce would not automatically trigger calm in southern Lebanon.


Arab and Western diplomats report that Israel has expressed strong determination to no longer allow the presence of Hezbollah's main fighters along the border, fearing an attack similar to Hamas' incursion that killed 1,200 people and took 253 hostages.


Israel's retaliatory assault in Gaza has killed more than 31,000 Palestinians and laid waste to the coastal enclave.


"If there is a ceasefire in (Gaza), there are two schools of thought in Israel and my impression is that the one that would recommend continuing the war on the border with Hezbollah is the stronger one," said Sima Shine, a former Israeli intelligence official who is currently head of the Iran program at the Institute for National Security Studies:


A senior Israeli official agreed that Iran was not seeking a full-blown war, noting Tehran's restrained response to Israel's offensive on Hamas.


"It seems that they feel they face a credible military threat. But that threat may need to become more credible," the official said.


Washington, via Hochstein, and France have been working on diplomatic proposals that would move Hezbollah fighters from the border area in line with U.N. resolution 1701 that helped end the 2006 war, but a deal remains elusive.


"FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE"


A war in Lebanon that seriously degrades Hezbollah would be a major blow for Iran, which relies on the group founded with its support in 1982 as a bulwark against Israel and to buttress its interests in the broader region, two regional sources said.


"Hezbollah is in fact the first line of defense for Iran," said Abdulghani Al-Iryani, a senior researcher at the Sana'a Center for Strategic Studies, a think tank in Yemen.


If Israel were to launch major military action on Hezbollah, the Iranian sources within the inner circle of power said, Tehran may find itself compelled to intensify its proxy war.


An Iranian security official acknowledged however that the costs of such an escalation could be prohibitively high for Iran's allied groups. Direct involvement by Iran, he added, could serve Israel's interests and provide justification for the continued presence of U.S. troops in the region.


Given Tehran's extensive, decades-long ties with Hezbollah, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to put distance between them, one U.S. official said.


Since the Hamas attack on Israel, Iran has given its blessing to actions in support of its ally in Gaza: including attacks by Iraqi groups on U.S. interests. It has also supplied intelligence and weapons for Houthi operations against shipping in the Red Sea.


But it has stopped well short of an unfettered multi-front war on Israel that, three Palestinian sources said, Hamas had expected Iran to support after Oct. 7.


Before the Beirut encounter with Nasrallah, Qaani chaired a two-day meeting in Iran in early February along with militia commanders of operations in Yemen, Iraq and Syria, three Hezbollah representatives and a Houthi delegation, one Iranian official said.


Revolutionary Guard's Commander-in-Chief Major General Hossein Salami was also present, the official said. Hamas did not attend.


"At the end, all the participants agreed that Israel wanted to expand the war and falling in that trap should be avoided as it will justify the presence of more U.S. troops in the region,” the official said.


Shortly after, Qaani engineered a pause in attacks by the Iraqi groups. So far, Hezbollah has kept its tit-for-tat responses within what observers have called unwritten rules of engagement with Israel.


Despite decades of proxy conflict since Iran's 1979 revolution, the Islamic Republic has never directly fought in a war with Israel, and all four Iranian sources said there was no appetite for that to change.


According to the Iranian insider, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is not inclined to see a war unfold on Iran, where domestic discontent with the ruling system last year spilled over into mass protests.


"The Iranians are pragmatists and they are afraid of the expansion of the war," said Iryani.


"If Israel were alone, they would fight, but they know that if the war expands, the United States will be drawn in."
 
Hamas accused Abbas of “making individual decisions, and engaging in formal steps that are devoid of substance [and] without national consensus” and so reinforcing “a policy of exclusion and the deepening of division”.

In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948” – a reference to the displacement and expulsion of about 760,000 Palestinians from their lands during the wars surrounding the creation of Israel.


“The real disconnection from reality and the Palestinian people is that of the Hamas leadership,” said Fatah.

Analysts said that Fatah’s fierce criticism would resonate with many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

“The largest amount of anger from the Palestinians is clearly at the Israelis, but after that, there is probably a lot of ire aimed at Hamas, because the October attack gave the excuse to the Israelis to carry out this bombardment of Gaza. It’s hard to see anything since as a success for the day-to-day lives of Palestinians,” said HA Hellyer, senior associate fellow at London’s Royal United Services Institute


“The real disconnection from reality and the Palestinian people is that of the Hamas leadership,” said Fatah.

Analysts said that Fatah’s fierce criticism would resonate with many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

“The largest amount of anger from the Palestinians is clearly at the Israelis, but after that, there is probably a lot of ire aimed at Hamas, because the October attack gave the excuse to the Israelis to carry out this bombardment of Gaza. It’s hard to see anything since as a success for the day-to-day lives of Palestinians,” said HA Hellyer, senior associate fellow at London’s Royal United Services Institute

It seems that Fatah agrees with me that Hamas’ atrocities on October 7 was the catalyst for Israel’s reaction. With the Gazans right behind them. After their anger at Israel of course.

So much for those that keep harping on that I had no idea.
That I was showing bias and believed the propaganda.
READ who FATAH blames.

It was all because of what happened prior to October 7 they kept saying. Obviously they think they know more Fatah and the PA.
Not so says Fatah and the PA and the anger of Gazans toward hames.
 
It’s not disgusting when you ask a question to get information. It’s only irrelevant to those that thinks so. Others believe it is quite relevant.
Nobody has deflected or downplayed the casualties
You can listen to whoever you like.Nobody has said anything that prevents you doing that
You are trying to lessen the impact the collective numbers make at a point in time, which is well past when retaliation/self defence might reasonably be offered as a justification for what happened back on October 7.
Since that time Israel has been killing off the residents of Gaza in a manner which is reminiscent of the holocaust.
Why not focus on that.
 
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I am not going to get into the same discussions again but wanted to make a slightly different point.

Seeing all these videos that Willo has posted and something that happened yesterday to me made me think about the role of social media in all this. For every video Willo produces from social media sources I could produce one as well providing a different point of view. There are countless videos about how evil different groups and individuals are.

I hardly access my Twitter account now but I was looking for something else yesterday and I read a post and replies about this conflict and to be honest it made me sick reading it. Posts ranging from pronouncements that all the Palestinians should be wiped from the face of the planet because they are not human to posts that Hamas should have killed more Israelis to continue the job the nazis didn’t finish. Pure hatred

This site is social media as well of course and we get a bit heated from time to time but thank goodness we don’t get to that point.
 
Hamas accused Abbas of “making individual decisions, and engaging in formal steps that are devoid of substance [and] without national consensus” and so reinforcing “a policy of exclusion and the deepening of division”.

In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948” – a reference to the displacement and expulsion of about 760,000 Palestinians from their lands during the wars surrounding the creation of Israel.

“The real disconnection from reality and the Palestinian people is that of the Hamas leadership,” said Fatah.

Analysts said that Fatah’s fierce criticism would resonate with many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

“The largest amount of anger from the Palestinians is clearly at the Israelis, but after that, there is probably a lot of ire aimed at Hamas, because the October attack gave the excuse to the Israelis to carry out this bombardment of Gaza. It’s hard to see anything since as a success for the day-to-day lives of Palestinians,” said HA Hellyer, senior associate fellow at London’s Royal United Services Institute

“The real disconnection from reality and the Palestinian people is that of the Hamas leadership,” said Fatah.

Analysts said that Fatah’s fierce criticism would resonate with many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

“The largest amount of anger from the Palestinians is clearly at the Israelis, but after that, there is probably a lot of ire aimed at Hamas, because the October attack gave the excuse to the Israelis to carry out this bombardment of Gaza. It’s hard to see anything since as a success for the day-to-day lives of Palestinians,” said HA Hellyer, senior associate fellow at London’s Royal United Services Institute

It seems that Fatah agrees with me that Hamas’ atrocities on October 7 was the catalyst for Israel’s reaction. With the Gazans right behind them. After their anger at Israel of course.

So much for those that keep harping on that I had no idea.
That I was showing bias and believed the propaganda.
READ who FATAH blames.

It was all because of what happened prior to October 7 they kept saying. Obviously they think they know more Fatah and the PA.
Not so says Fatah and the PA and the anger of Gazans toward hames.
As an aside Willo you will see countless posts by me ( and probably others) about how the October 7 attack was actually counter productive to the Palestinian cause. The fact that it precipitated a response from Israel is undeniable and I have not seen anyone denying it. So I am not sure what your point actually is.
That is not the issue .The actual issue now is the scale of that response and the human catastrophe that is being played out in Gaza.
The points so many have made are
1. What is proportionate, is this scale of mass killing and destruction justified?
2. The real problem is not October 7 or Hamas because they are symptoms of the problem. The core issue is the right of the Palestinian people to some form of self determination and freedom.

Unless that basic core issue is solved there will be no peace. That Willo is the fundamental issue here. What is Israel’s solution to Palestinian autonomy?

I am just summarising the issue as I see it and trying to point out to you that in some ways you are arguing something that noone is disagreeing with which is Israel attacked Gaza (this time) because of October 7.
 
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So Willo, your contribution to this debate is to yet again say there is no solution.

Well, that's useful.

Do you have a better idea?

Yes, it is a long shot and a 2 state solution being imposed is only a short/medium term solution with the idea that a long term solution would have to be hammered out. A 1 state solution would be the most likely long term solution which could work, after a period of 2 states.

But a long shot is better than what you propose which is that they just keep kicking the can down the road and it flares up every few years.

If October 7 is a catalyst, then what was the catalyst for October 7? I know you will just claim it is because Hamas are crazy fundies, but the Hamas attack cannot be taken out of the context of Gazans living in a ghetto of Israel's making for decades, the continued attacks on Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank, and the original dispossession of the Palestinians.

DS
 
You are trying to lessen the impact the collective numbers make at a point in time, which is well past when retaliation/self defence might reasonably be offered as a justification for what happened back on October 7.
Since that time Israel has been killing off the residents of Gaza in a manner which is reminiscent of the holocaust.
Why not focus on that.
Geez mate, you’re late to this.
It wasn’t me trying to do anything. If was a video clip where the person asking the question wanted information. Try to keep up to date
 
As an aside Willo you will see countless posts by me ( and probably others) about how the October 7 attack was actually counter productive to the Palestinian cause. The fact that it precipitated a response from Israel is undeniable and I have not seen anyone denying it. So I am not sure what your point actually is.
Well you must have missed the dozens of posts criticising me and then trying to say this was all a result of things before October 7.
I had already acknowledged the issues prior to October 7. But I said Hamas was responsible for Israel going into Gaza. Wholly and solely. Once again I was howled down, I didnt know what I was talking about, I was only being influenced by Israel’s propaganda, that I was biased and all the rest of the *smile*. If I have the time and inclination I might find a dozen or so and put them up.
Or you can look back for yourself.
THAT‘S THE POINT.
That is not the issue .The actual issue now is the scale of that response and the human catastrophe that is being played out in Gaza.
The points so many have made are
1. What is proportionate, is this scale of mass killing and destruction justified?
2. The real problem is not October 7 or Hamas because they are symptoms of the problem. The core issue is the right of the Palestinian people to some form of self determination and freedom.
It is the issue. The whole issue.
Anyone who knows anything about the Middle East and/or Israel would know that they have never just done proportionate response to any terror or state attack on them. They will go to the ends of the earth to respond. (Nazi war criminals, Munich massacre).
Everyone, including Hamas knows they respond. It is no surprise.
I have stated time and time again that NO! I don’t support the lengths Israel have gone to. The death and injuries of the innocent and the destruction. No, it is not justified. Even though I can see why they’ve gone to those extremes.
Apart from any Hamas operative, soldier, commander, instigator or helper. They hopefully have met Allah or soon
Unless that basic core issue is solved there will be no peace. That Willo is the fundamental issue here. What is Israel’s solution to Palestinian autonomy?
Why is it up to Israel to find a solution? You’ve got Hamas with autonomy in Gaza . You've got Fatah with autonomy in the West Bank. They can’t even agree who has autonomy over their own people. It’s certainly not up to Israel to sort that out.
I can’t believe you’d even ask that.
I am just summarising the issue as I see it and trying to point out to you that in some ways you are arguing something that noone is disagreeing with which is Israel attacked Gaza (this time) because of October 7.
Whether your summarising or not I’m not the arguer in this instance.
With all respect Sin and I mean that sincerely, you must have missed the dozens of posts that howled me down, made up lies, told untruths, misquoted deliberately what I said and all the rest of their tripe. They were arguing that point. I find it hard to believe anyone who has posted multiple times missed those posts. Or maybe people just browse past them if they’re not addressed specifically.
Nad he’s a lot wer just saying that. It wasn’t just Oct 7.

As soon as I found an article where Fatah in effect supported what I said all along. It made me *smile* laugh my arse off.
Those plonkers will change the subject or misrepresent what I said or just tell lies.
They haven’t the balls to say, “you were right”.

If I’m in the wrong, I will accept it. If my words cause people to be upset, I will apologise and try to be more thoughtful. Having said that I reserve the right to have an opinion, and if a poster wants to get insulting and all the rest, rest assured they’ll get it back in spades. I don’t give a *smile* how many come running to support them either.

Unless there is a dramatic change I believe there won’t be any solution.
Unless the hostages are handed over without any strings attached. And Hamas soldiers and its leadership is handed over for trial and justice Israel won’t be interested in even sitting down.
Unless there are democratic elections with one party being responsible for all Palestinians here’re will not be a solution. You can’t have one people and 2 governments that oppose and kill each other. You’ll get..what you’ve got now. Mayhem
 
So Willo, your contribution to this debate is to yet again say there is no solution.
Unless circumstances change dramatically. Hostages are returned. Hamas leaders and soldiers surrendered for trial. Exactly.
Well, that's useful.
Not my fault. I’m not going to make up some scenario that won’t possibly work just for the sake of it.
Do you have a better idea?
No. Hamas shot that fair in the arse. Even if Fatah wanted to sit down and negotiate with Israel, you have the problem of one people and two governments. Those two governments hate and kill each other. So make sense of that if you will
Yes, it is a long shot and a 2 state solution being imposed is only a short/medium term solution with the idea that a long term solution would have to be hammered out. A 1 state solution would be the most likely long term solution which could work, after a period of 2 states.

But a long shot is better than what you propose which is that they just keep kicking the can down the road and it flares up every few years.
I don’t disagree with you that something needs to happen. It needs a circuit breaker as it’s been happening for too long. I would have been more optimistic 6 months ago. But ..well you know the story..Hamas decided to do what they did.
Funny, when I mentioned a One State solution quite a few pages back it got howled down. It must depend on who makes the suggestion.
I sincerely believe there is too much distrust, hatred, anger from a lot of people on both sides who have suffered terribly. Could they bury the hatchet? Only in their opponents head at this stage of the game. I’m quite pessimistic where this will go for years to .
I just don’t see a way out of this. But I could be wrong
If October 7 is a catalyst, then what was the catalyst for October 7?
Those atrocities cannot be justified in any way nor can they be reconciled with how Gazans have been treated. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Nor achieve any trust or willingness to have meaningful dialogue .
If there was a catalyst! Maybe the way Gazans have bee; forced to live. Why? As a result of rockets, bombings etc on Israel.
As we all know. Each side has reasons to blame the other. I think they always will, it seems ingrained in their dna. Like a mongoose and a cobra
I know you will just claim it is because Hamas are crazy fundies, but the Hamas attack cannot be taken out of the context of Gazans living in a ghetto of Israel's making for decades, the continued attacks on Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank, and the original dispossession of the Palestinians.
It still doesn’t excuse the murders of innocents, nor the kidnappings.
 
Well you must have missed the dozens of posts criticising me and then trying to say this was all a result of things before October 7.
I had already acknowledged the issues prior to October 7. But I said Hamas was responsible for Israel going into Gaza. Wholly and solely. Once again I was howled down, I didnt know what I was talking about, I was only being influenced by Israel’s propaganda, that I was biased and all the rest of the *smile*. If I have the time and inclination I might find a dozen or so and put them up.
Or you can look back for yourself.
THAT‘S THE POINT.
October 7 was what precipitated this invasion but even without it the Palestinians are still subject to massive injustice and oppression. You cannot separate October 7 from everything else that has happened and is happening. That’s what you seem to want to do. Acknowledging it ? I don’t even know what that means.

History says that if it wasn’t October 7 it would be something else. It doesn’t make what Hamas did right but what Hamas did also does not make what Israel did before that right or what they are doing now right. Not condemning what Israel is doing and has done is what people object to with your posts. The way you post it seems like 75 years of history gets wiped out and is irrelevant because of October 7.

The reason Israel needs to find a solution is because they have self determination, they have a state and they are not allowing the Palestinians the same right . They are the occupier, they have the military power. The only way it can be achieved is by compromise by Israel and actions by Israel.

With all due respect there is nothing the Palestinians can do. There have been periods of relative peace and those periods have not brought the Palestinians any closer to their own state, in fact the opposite.

So I know you don’t agree with this but that is what I read in your posts.
 
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So, Willo, your astute analysis says it is all Hamas' fault, despite the fact that this dispute started decades before Hamas existed, and that there is no solution so people just have to keep getting killed.

You truly are an inspiration to us all.
Yeh, it's staggering. Imagine if he started posting videos of the Palestinian victims? And they didn't just start after Hamas actions. They've been getting killed by Israeli's for decades.
 
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Wow... America knows how dangerous, unhelpful, extremist and *smile* Netanyahu is yet they keep spending billions of taxpayer dollars to feed him arms.

America also knows that Iran had no part in the Oct 7th attack and has no interest in building a nuclear bomb, yet keeps pushing that *smile* line so we are all against the Iranians.

And on and on it goes...

You really only need to watch the first 3 minutes of the video to get a good handle on what America's own spy agencies had to say. Pretty shocking stuff really!
 
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October 7 was what precipitated this invasion but even without it the Palestinians are still subject to massive injustice and oppression. You cannot separate October 7 from everything else that has happened and is happening. That’s what you seem to want to do.
I disagree.
Acknowledging it ? I don’t even know what that means.
Acknowledge the issues prior to Oct 7, means exactly that. You “don’t even know what that means”? Really? I thought you did in the previous sentence, try “injustice and oppression” , try Hamas ruling with an iron fist and getting rich , try anything that kept the innocent Gazan population under heel. Read back on my posts. Surely I don’t have to rewrite everything again
History says that if it wasn’t October 7 it would be something else. It doesn’t make what Hamas did right but what Hamas did also does not make what Israel did before that right or what they are doing now right. Not condemning what Israel is doing and has done is what people object to with your posts. The way you post it seems like 75 years of history gets wiped out and is irrelevant because of October 7.
History can say what it likes. But facts will say Oct7 precipitated Israel’s response. Even Fatah says the same... are you for real.?How many times have I said their response in Gaza was disproportionate? Now you’re getting like these others. Show me one post of mine where I have said Israel is doing the right thing killing all the innocent people. Just one post. They can only object if they don’t grasp what words mean or lack comprehension skills or read tto fast for their brains..
“ The way I post” now is it. Not what I post but the way I post. Well how about you and others read WHAT I post. Not what you THINK I post or how you THINK I post. READ what I write, no read into it what you think.
I believe I have a fair grasp of the history not just from 75 years ago either. But from when Theodore Herzl help found the Zionist Movement. Land deals, etc. Balfour Declaration, The Palestinian Mandate, Transjordan formation and many other important milestones.
The reason Israel needs to find a solution is because they have self determination, they have a state and they are not allowing the Palestinians the same right . They are the occupier, they have the military power. The only way it can be achieved is by compromise by Israel and actions by Israel.
Sorry mate. Absolute rubbish. Occupier, military power, bully boy. Whatever you like. Unfortunately the Palestinians are their own worst enemy. They can’t even elect ONE body to govern them. That’s on them when 2 forces want power and won’t share it. In fact they nearly have a civil war over it.
Palestinians have such a self imposed victim mentality they want to blame everyone but themselves. This even rubs off onto their supporters.
After 75 years they still can’t get their own house in order. They have received $ billions in aid. Name one thing they have built for themselves with all that aid.
They must be among the dumbest group of people having so many people with high intelligence. That they can’t even improve their own lot after all that time.
Too ooften making the wrong decisions, backing the wrong horse in every altercation. Now whether it was the Oslo Accords, or all the other attempts to find a peaceful solution either side can be blamed for their failure. But that’s done.
Many would say Israel has compromised and acted in the past. Others would argue the opposite. We’ve been through this before ad nausea, and I’m not doing it again.

With all due respect there is nothing the Palestinians can do. There have been periods of relative peace and those periods have not brought the Palestinians any closer to their own state, in fact the opposite.
There is plenty they can do. Palestinians need to get their own house in order first and foremost. That’s on them. Purely and simply and don’t blame anyone else. Stop being the victim, elect a governing body that represents their best interests. Get rid of the power mongers and millionaire militants that only exist for their own self serving purposes.
So I know you don’t agree with this but that is what I read in your posts.
No I don’t. Most vociferously. You should probably read what I write. I can’t help what people read 8m to my posts, only what I write. I don’t believe I write too convoluted that allows people to misunderstand me. Maybe they look for what’s not there and imagine it is.
 

Wow... America knows how dangerous, unhelpful, extremist and *smile* Netanyahu is yet they keep spending billions of taxpayer dollars to feed him arms.

America also knows that Iran had no part in the Oct 7th attack and has no interest in building a nuclear bomb, yet keeps pushing that *smile* line so we are all against the Iranians.

And on and on it goes...

You really only need to watch the first 3 minutes of the video to get a good handle on what America's own spy agencies had to say. Pretty shocking stuff really!
Are these the same American spy agencies that a few years back promised that old mate Saddam had all these kabooms of mass destruction and was about to start kicking arse if the Yanks n friends didn't rush in and save the world? Now they're telling everyone that the Iranian leaders don't have any involvement or input into anything that's been going on these last few months. Think I'd rather believe that I've got fairies n pixies hiding under the mulch in my veggie patch.
 
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I disagree.

Acknowledge the issues prior to Oct 7, means exactly that. You “don’t even know what that means”? Really? I thought you did in the previous sentence, try “injustice and oppression” , try Hamas ruling with an iron fist and getting rich , try anything that kept the innocent Gazan population under heel. Read back on my posts. Surely I don’t have to rewrite everything again

History can say what it likes. But facts will say Oct7 precipitated Israel’s response. Even Fatah says the same... are you for real.?How many times have I said their response in Gaza was disproportionate? Now you’re getting like these others. Show me one post of mine where I have said Israel is doing the right thing killing all the innocent people. Just one post. They can only object if they don’t grasp what words mean or lack comprehension skills or read tto fast for their brains..
“ The way I post” now is it. Not what I post but the way I post. Well how about you and others read WHAT I post. Not what you THINK I post or how you THINK I post. READ what I write, no read into it what you think.
I believe I have a fair grasp of the history not just from 75 years ago either. But from when Theodore Herzl help found the Zionist Movement. Land deals, etc. Balfour Declaration, The Palestinian Mandate, Transjordan formation and many other important milestones.

Sorry mate. Absolute rubbish. Occupier, military power, bully boy. Whatever you like. Unfortunately the Palestinians are their own worst enemy. They can’t even elect ONE body to govern them. That’s on them when 2 forces want power and won’t share it. In fact they nearly have a civil war over it.
Palestinians have such a self imposed victim mentality they want to blame everyone but themselves. This even rubs off onto their supporters.
After 75 years they still can’t get their own house in order. They have received $ billions in aid. Name one thing they have built for themselves with all that aid.
They must be among the dumbest group of people having so many people with high intelligence. That they can’t even improve their own lot after all that time.
Too ooften making the wrong decisions, backing the wrong horse in every altercation. Now whether it was the Oslo Accords, or all the other attempts to find a peaceful solution either side can be blamed for their failure. But that’s done.
Many would say Israel has compromised and acted in the past. Others would argue the opposite. We’ve been through this before ad nausea, and I’m not doing it again.


There is plenty they can do. Palestinians need to get their own house in order first and foremost. That’s on them. Purely and simply and don’t blame anyone else. Stop being the victim, elect a governing body that represents their best interests. Get rid of the power mongers and millionaire militants that only exist for their own self serving purposes.

No I don’t. Most vociferously. You should probably read what I write. I can’t help what people read 8m to my posts, only what I write. I don’t believe I write too convoluted that allows people to misunderstand me. Maybe they look for what’s not there and imagine it is.
Oh dear

There is a basic truth about your posting which is the vast majority of people who comment on it get the same impression about it which is you take a a very simplistic view to the carnage in Gaza. That view is the actions of Hamas in October 7 can be separated from 75 years of history and anything Israel does is justified by those actions. It is seen as victim blaming

Maybe you should look at what you write rather than getting narky at me and others. Even your outrage “ show me one post where I say Israel is doing the right thing” shows a lack of understanding of the inference of what you write. That’s not what you specifically say but your constant refrain is “blame Hamas”. What that says is Israel can kill and injure all those people and destroy all that property because it is not their fault. They don’t have a choice.

Of course they have a choice

Your comments on billions of $ of aid and not getting their house in order is breathtaking in its ignorance. They are under siege in Gaza but they built a community in an area that is one of the most overpopulated in the world. They built hospitals and schools and universities despite being effectively cut off from the world. They did all this despite having all hope of an autonomous Palestinian state taken from them over the years.

Unfortunately most of it is now gone.
 
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