Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Palestine and Israel

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No, helping my 80 year old neighbour who just had a bad fall.
It’s not definition of ethnic cleansing but from Genocide Watch


I notice you couldn’t answer anything about Israel’s genocide. Why not?
Seriously ?

What is the actual question?
 
The bizarre logic that Israel can wipe out the population of Gaza but they haven't done so in the West Bank so therefore it cannot be genocide.
 
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Great 4 Corners program on Israels motivation and strategy in this war. A lot of heavy hitters interviewed, Former PMs, former Mossad chiefs, current ministers. Fascinating stuff, all defended Israels position, to different degrees and in diffferent ways, but when asked what they think of Netanyahu, all except the current foreign minister were very clear, he's a crook, a liar, a far right wing evil cynical warmonger.

Same, and connected are the 2 extreme far right ministers he has appointed, all thought they were far right nutcases. One, who until this point seemed hard line and conservative, called them terrorists. The interviewer stopped and said 'hang on, you're calling 2 Israeli ministers terrorists?', he replied, 'yes, because they are terrorists'.
 
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This is what you said was according to me

So according to you and those words of pronunciation, once they “ finish off” the other 2.5million Gazans, they will head to the West Bank, get rid of the other 3 millions+ Palestinians here. Do they then go to Jordan as well? Another 3 million there to get rid of.

I didn’t say any of that. So back off Willo

You have lost it with your last paragraphs. It has nothing to do with lefty , that is just lazy *smile*. I am a humanitarian and I have not once defended what Hamas did on October 7.

Whilst we are on lazy *smile*, a few weeks ago you suggested I was anti semitic which again is totally wrong. I was thinking at the time of demanding an apology but decided to not worry about it. That’s a bit part of the Israeli propoganda, anyone who doesn’t agree with what they do is anti semitic. It is *smile*.

When you start with the lazy name calling that’s it for me.
Obviously you missed the comma there.
It was..”So according to you and those words of pronunciation”…… missed that bit did you. Obviously you did..
So you get defensive when I say “ a bunch of hypocritical, lefty, apologists” if you think your‘re part of that that’s on you.

Meanwhile I can be called amongst all the other “compliments” a RWNJ. An Israeli bath water drinker etc.
Yeah you’re right it is lazy *smile*, because I take the time to construct a solid reply. What I get in return is lazy *smile*. Off on a tangent.unaswered questions because people caught themselves out with their rhetoric.

Whilst you are a humanitarian have you called out Hamas for their inhumane atrocities or blamed them for Israel’s response?

Or have you said it was because Israel stole their land, backed them into a corner, left them with no choice etc etc.
Hamas are everyday Palestinians , there are no formal fighters! They don’t the names of all the Hamas terrorists etc.?

If you offence about being called “ anti semitic” maybe you should look at the tone of most of your posts. Rather than looking for an apology, look at what you write.

Ultra defensive when it comes to the Palestinian cause. Nothing I take exception to there by the way, I too have expressed sympathy for the innocent lives lost. On both sides.
But included in that is your almost apologetic defense of Hamas. Where exactly have you condemned them? It’s not part of Israeli propaganda, it’s your own statements and words you’ve used. Own it.

And if I “start with the lazy name calling, that’s it for you” . At least you haven’t had a posse saying to you.

And once again, I do sympathise with the horror in Gaza.The thousands of innocents killed or injured. Those made homeless.
Take it up with Hamas. They planned this. They instigated this. They arrived out the atrocities, They are responsible for the suffering.

But zero, absolute zero sympathy for Hamas operatives, planners, soldiers, participants, shelterers, helpers et al. or their homes or possessions.
 
Seriously ?

What is the actual question?
I‘ve asked it 3 or more different ways, but each time you’ve missed it. Even when you quoted my posts.

The definition of genocide

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group..
Now answer me this. Is the aim to destroy that nation…nation being Palestinians? yes or no.
It he answer is “yes”. How do they do that?
Do they wipe out the other 2 million in Gaza?
Do they go to the West Bank and kill the 2.7 million there?
Do they go to Jordan and kill the 3 million there?
Do they head back to Israel and kill the 1.5+ million there?
The Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere

Do you and others believe thats what Israel are doing or plan to do? Leave the rhetoric out and just answer

If you don’t believe they’re going to go into other countries and back in Israel and kill every Palestinian then it’s not genocide
If you believe they are going to do just that you must be a hamas fan boy, a closet terrorist or an Iranian stooge.Hows that for being an Israeli fan boy,, a Shin Bet wannabe or a Bibi stooge.
 
Obviously you missed the comma there.
It was..”So according to you and those words of pronunciation”…… missed that bit did you. Obviously you did..
So you get defensive when I say “ a bunch of hypocritical, lefty, apologists” if you think your‘re part of that that’s on you.

Meanwhile I can be called amongst all the other “compliments” a RWNJ. An Israeli bath water drinker etc.
Yeah you’re right it is lazy *smile*, because I take the time to construct a solid reply. What I get in return is lazy *smile*. Off on a tangent.unaswered questions because people caught themselves out with their rhetoric.

Whilst you are a humanitarian have you called out Hamas for their inhumane atrocities or blamed them for Israel’s response?

Or have you said it was because Israel stole their land, backed them into a corner, left them with no choice etc etc.
Hamas are everyday Palestinians , there are no formal fighters! They don’t the names of all the Hamas terrorists etc.?

If you offence about being called “ anti semitic” maybe you should look at the tone of most of your posts. Rather than looking for an apology, look at what you write.

Ultra defensive when it comes to the Palestinian cause. Nothing I take exception to there by the way, I too have expressed sympathy for the innocent lives lost. On both sides.
But included in that is your almost apologetic defense of Hamas. Where exactly have you condemned them? It’s not part of Israeli propaganda, it’s your own statements and words you’ve used. Own it.

And if I “start with the lazy name calling, that’s it for you” . At least you haven’t had a posse saying to you.

And once again, I do sympathise with the horror in Gaza.The thousands of innocents killed or injured. Those made homeless.
Take it up with Hamas. They planned this. They instigated this. They arrived out the atrocities, They are responsible for the suffering.

But zero, absolute zero sympathy for Hamas operatives, planners, soldiers, participants, shelterers, helpers et al. or their homes or possessions.
It’s impossible Willo, you are all over the place.

And btw I have called out the October 7 attack over and over and over again. Apart from calling it murder and barbaric, I also called it counter productive. Which it was because it gave apologists for Israel an excuse for what they have been doing for decades being ramped up.

Take it up with Hamas …lol again. if you think it will be all roses if Hamas surrenders you are again kidding yourself. For instance will Israel return the 2500 Palestinian hostages they hold in jails without trial as well?

I am very comfortable with what I say about Israel. I am very careful not to say Jews but Israel or the state of Israel, because they are not the same thing. I know many wonderful Jewish people and have done for most of my life. Many of them are appalled by what is being done in their name and would also be appalled ( or maybe amused as well) by me being called anti semitic. There isn’t anything I have said that I haven’t said to quite a few Jewish people I know.

Btw I have not called you a RWNJ. I did say you were drinking the Israeli bath water, because you are
 
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I‘ve asked it 3 or more different ways, but each time you’ve missed it. Even when you quoted my posts.

The definition of genocide

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group..
Now answer me this. Is the aim to destroy that nation…nation being Palestinians? yes or no.
It he answer is “yes”. How do they do that?
Do they wipe out the other 2 million in Gaza?
Do they go to the West Bank and kill the 2.7 million there?
Do they go to Jordan and kill the 3 million there?
Do they head back to Israel and kill the 1.5+ million there?
The Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere

Do you and others believe thats what Israel are doing or plan to do? Leave the rhetoric out and just answer

If you don’t believe they’re going to go into other countries and back in Israel and kill every Palestinian then it’s not genocide
If you believe they are going to do just that you must be a hamas fan boy, a closet terrorist or an Iranian stooge.Hows that for being an Israeli fan boy,, a Shin Bet wannabe or a Bibi stooge.
That’s your definitions, not mine. So I am not going to answer a false question.

I believe it is the aim of the state of Israel to control all of what is now Israel, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank as a larger Israel.

They have already started well before October 7 2023 and they will continue to prosecute that.

They won’t do it by killing 5 million Palestinians, no normal person would suggest that is what they are going to do.

They will try and do it by continuing to steal land in the West Bank, by reinforcing their illegal control over East Jerusalem and by controlling Gaza for the foreseeable future under the guise of security. Their hope is that eventually the only solution will be total autonomy of the whole area. Their hope is that Palestinians will decide that their living conditions are so bad they have to leave. They will do it by oppression. I don’t know if they will succeed. I also hope a new government in Israel may at least soften these aims.

In the meantime they are doing what Netanyahu said they would which is making the price so high they can’t bear it. That price is death, destruction, injury, starvation. What they are doing in Gaza now is the deliberate collective punishment, the deliberate killing of innocent people and that is part of a campaign they have been running for a long time with the aim of the destruction of the state of Palestine. Israel cannot exist from the river to the sea if Palestine exists on the same land.
 
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It’s impossible Willo, you are all over the place.

And btw I have called out the October 7 attack over and over and over again. Apart from calling it murder and barbaric, I also called it counter productive. Which it was because it gave apologists for Israel an excuse for what they have been doing for decades being ramped up.

Take it up with Hamas …lol again. if you think it will be all roses if Hamas surrenders you are again kidding yourself. For instance will Israel return the 2500 Palestinian hostages they hold in jails without trial as well?

I am very comfortable with what I say about Israel. I am very careful not to say Jews but Israel or the state of Israel, because they are not the same thing. I know many wonderful Jewish people and have done for most of my life. Many of them are appalled by what is being done in their name and would also be appalled ( or maybe amused as well) by me being called anti semitic. There isn’t anything I have said that I haven’t said to quite a few Jewish people I know.

Btw I have not called you a RWNJ. I did say you were drinking the Israeli bath water, because you are
How am I all over the place? That’s just a statement with no truth to it.

iF you have called out the October 7 attack over and over again, full credit to you. If you called it murder and barbaric. And I will acknowledge the fact you did so.

Take it up with Hamas. No lol about it.
Once again, if those murdering *smile* hadn’t done what they did Israel would not have invaded Gaza. Fact.
If they didn’t kidnap innocent civilians Israel wouldn’t have invaded Gaza. Fact.
Otherwise they would have already done so.
Even with the provocation of the bombings and rockets previously. It might have been a matter or time. But once again. Hamas. Fact.
Is any of that all over the place or is it’s simple to follow that line?

I didn’t say anything about “all roses” just your rhetoric again. I know Hamas won’t surrender themselves. They haven’t got the balls to do it.

Very good point saying Israel rather than Jews. Many other could do the same. As there is a mix of nationalities.
Perhaps I should have said your anti Semitic rhetoric rather than calling you anti Semitic. At least that’s how it came across.

And I never accused you of calling me a RWNJ. I said I’ve been called quite a few things. It even might be true. :giggle: It’s water off my back, comments by a host of mental pygmies doesn’t bother me. I don’t include you in mental pygmies comment.
Drinking the Israeli bath water. Thats not the worst comment I’ve heard .
 
Hamas would not exist if not for the oppression of the Palestinians and fact they were thrown off their land starting in 1948.

The fact that the apologists for Israel and the Zionists refuse to acknowledge that events prior to October 7 led to the Hamas actions just shows they are unwilling to accept the history of the conflict. What Hamas did was wrong but it was entirely predictable.

I'll ask my question yet again: what should the Palestinians have done?

DS
 
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Hamas would not exist if not for the oppression of the Palestinians and fact they were thrown off their land starting in 1948.

The fact that the apologists for Israel and the Zionists refuse to acknowledge that events prior to October 7 led to the Hamas actions just shows they are unwilling to accept the history of the conflict. What Hamas did was wrong but it was entirely predictable.

I'll ask my question yet again: what should the Palestinians have done?

DS
That’s easy to answer. Accepted the Oslo Accords and any of the other peace for land deals hate through out because they wouldn’t dare compromise. They wanted all the land. Not to share it, not to have some of it, more than they have now.
Read the history, that spells it out for you. Victims of their own decisions. Always have been
 
That’s easy to answer. Accepted the Oslo Accords and any of the other peace for land deals hate through out because they wouldn’t dare compromise. They wanted all the land. Not to share it, not to have some of it, more than they have now.
Read the history, that spells it out for you. Victims of their own decisions. Always have been
Yes I agree.

Israel should have accepted the Oslo accords by not building settlements, sharing jurisdiction over East Jerusalem and ending the siege of Gaza. They should have accepted the 2 state solution, after all the PLO accepted Israel’s right to exist as part of those accords.

They did want all the land, but you have the wrong party.

You see it depends on your version of history. My view, and those of many others, is that Israel were never going to accept those terms. It was inevitable that some hot head or group of hotheads would send a rocket over the wall and then it would be used as an excuse to pull out. It was inevitable that word would get out the Israeli settlements were continuing. What statesmen on both sides would have done was keep a cool head and an eye on the big picture

There is no history on this just opinion. Israel says the Palestinians broke the deal, the Palestinians say Israel did.

But we had no statesmen.

By the way my language has never been anti semitic, it has been anti the state of Israel.
 
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For those who were across the Oslo Accords and The Camp David talks you probably know what they were all about.
But I’ve posted some clips as there seems to be a few people who aren’t that familiar with them.
Those who wish to, can view them. Those that don’t want to, can just scroll past them
 
Yes I agree.

Israel should have accepted the Oslo accords by not building settlements, sharing jurisdiction over East Jerusalem and ending the siege of Gaza. They should have accepted the 2 state solution, after all the PLO accepted Israel’s right to exist as part of those accords.

They did want all the land, but you have the wrong party.

You see it depends on your version of history. My view, and those of many others, is that Israel were never going to accept those terms. It was inevitable that some hot head or group of hotheads would send a rocket over the wall and then it would be used as an excuse to pull out. It was inevitable that word would get out the Israeli settlements were continuing. What statesmen on both sides would have done was keep a cool head and an eye on the big picture

There is no history on this just opinion. Israel says the Palestinians broke the deal, the Palestinians say Israel did.

But we had no statesmen.

By the way my language has never been anti semitic, it has been anti the state of Israel.
* Excerpt
The Oslo Accords marked the first time Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) formally recognised one another. Many at that time believed this was a step in the right direction. But what followed over the next 20 years of negotiations reveals that Israel merely used the agreements to justify the further expansion of illegal settlements in the territories it occupied in 1967.

The Oslo Accords were signed in the White House, but named after Norway’s capital city, where the secret negotiations took place. But why Oslo, and why Norway? This documentary tries to find the answer to this key question: Why Oslo and why Norway? This documentary tries to find the answer.
You view, many others and my view are meaningless now.
The original Oslo Accords and those who participated are the only ones who truly knew the

In 1979, Yasser Arafat asked Norway to provide a secret back channel to the Israelis. But Israel was not yet willing to engage in talks directly with Arafat and the PLO.

A decade later, the Palestinian Intifada broke out. Massive protests caught both Israel and the PLO by surprise. In 1988, the second year of the Intifada, Arafat announced the PLO’s acceptance of UN Resolutions 242 and 338, which granted Israel a window to “secure and recognised boundaries”, and allowed it to continue its occupation in strategic parts of the West Bank.


Israel was also facing worldwide condemnation for its crackdown on Palestinian demonstrators. There was growing pressure from the international community to start peace talks with the Palestinians. Israel decided it was time for negotiations with the PLO in Norway.
* End of excerpt.
——————————————————————————

Interestingly enough Arafat announced the PLO’s acceptance of UN Resolutions 242 and 238. Which granted Israel a window to secure and recognised boundaries and allowed it to continue its occupation in strategic parts or the West Bank..

Settlements had already been built in the West Bank as a result of the 1967 war. Jordan didn’t want the West Bank after previously annexing it in 1950. So gave up control to Israel.

The Oslo Accords were also about the security of Israel and land and peace for Palestinians.
It doesn’t really matter what your views ar, nor others, nor mine.
The only people who knew the veracity about negotiating the Oslo Accords were those participating.

No doubt since then it’s become obsolete. Yes the PLO did recognise Israel. Step 1. That was it. It takes more than that to fulfil what the negotiators agreed to.
It depends which side of the fence you’re on as to who was a legitimate and honest negotiator who was dealing a honest hand. And the other side who no intention of following through.
Moot point now. No one is a winner. Palestinian as had a chance back then. But blew it. Israel has taken every opportunity habnded to it and then some.
Do 8 agree with the illegal settlements in the WB. I’ve already answered that as a no. Do I see the reason why Israel is doing it. Yes for their own security, to secure the land for themselves.

I know you won’t agree, and believe the poor Palestinians have been wronged all their lives. Theyre victims. Sometimes victims of others, at times victims of their own victim mentality and their penchant for backing the wrong horse at all times. Or any horse if it’s racing IsraelTheyve had choices, they’ve made some bad ones.

But it’s all in the eyes of whom you support. That’s each individual’s right and evidence, rhetoric, and YouTube clips and articles won’t sway each opinion .
And as usual innocents pay the price. On both sides.

And it’s not finished yet. To the north and hisbollah will come into the picture very soon at the behest of the mad mullahs. Just wait and see.
We will then see what death and destruction looks like. What is happening in Gaza will be pale compared to what will be happening very soon. Mark my words.
And more innocents will pay the ultimate price.
I’m sure if it’s Israel asuffering thousands upon thousands of casualties, a few couldn't care less. Just some pithy soliloquies, but what they really mean is “ just what they deserve”.
Then I guess Israel while fighting for it’s existence will fire off a few nukes.
 
* Excerpt
The Oslo Accords marked the first time Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) formally recognised one another. Many at that time believed this was a step in the right direction. But what followed over the next 20 years of negotiations reveals that Israel merely used the agreements to justify the further expansion of illegal settlements in the territories it occupied in 1967.

The Oslo Accords were signed in the White House, but named after Norway’s capital city, where the secret negotiations took place. But why Oslo, and why Norway? This documentary tries to find the answer to this key question: Why Oslo and why Norway? This documentary tries to find the answer.
You view, many others and my view are meaningless now.
The original Oslo Accords and those who participated are the only ones who truly knew the

In 1979, Yasser Arafat asked Norway to provide a secret back channel to the Israelis. But Israel was not yet willing to engage in talks directly with Arafat and the PLO.

A decade later, the Palestinian Intifada broke out. Massive protests caught both Israel and the PLO by surprise. In 1988, the second year of the Intifada, Arafat announced the PLO’s acceptance of UN Resolutions 242 and 338, which granted Israel a window to “secure and recognised boundaries”, and allowed it to continue its occupation in strategic parts of the West Bank.

Israel was also facing worldwide condemnation for its crackdown on Palestinian demonstrators. There was growing pressure from the international community to start peace talks with the Palestinians. Israel decided it was time for negotiations with the PLO in Norway.
* End of excerpt.
——————————————————————————

Interestingly enough Arafat announced the PLO’s acceptance of UN Resolutions 242 and 238. Which granted Israel a window to secure and recognised boundaries and allowed it to continue its occupation in strategic parts or the West Bank..

Settlements had already been built in the West Bank as a result of the 1967 war. Jordan didn’t want the West Bank after previously annexing it in 1950. So gave up control to Israel.

The Oslo Accords were also about the security of Israel and land and peace for Palestinians.
It doesn’t really matter what your views ar, nor others, nor mine.
The only people who knew the veracity about negotiating the Oslo Accords were those participating.

No doubt since then it’s become obsolete. Yes the PLO did recognise Israel. Step 1. That was it. It takes more than that to fulfil what the negotiators agreed to.
It depends which side of the fence you’re on as to who was a legitimate and honest negotiator who was dealing a honest hand. And the other side who no intention of following through.
Moot point now. No one is a winner. Palestinian as had a chance back then. But blew it. Israel has taken every opportunity habnded to it and then some.
Do 8 agree with the illegal settlements in the WB. I’ve already answered that as a no. Do I see the reason why Israel is doing it. Yes for their own security, to secure the land for themselves.

I know you won’t agree, and believe the poor Palestinians have been wronged all their lives. Theyre victims. Sometimes victims of others, at times victims of their own victim mentality and their penchant for backing the wrong horse at all times. Or any horse if it’s racing IsraelTheyve had choices, they’ve made some bad ones.

But it’s all in the eyes of whom you support. That’s each individual’s right and evidence, rhetoric, and YouTube clips and articles won’t sway each opinion .
And as usual innocents pay the price. On both sides.

And it’s not finished yet. To the north and hisbollah will come into the picture very soon at the behest of the mad mullahs. Just wait and see.
We will then see what death and destruction looks like. What is happening in Gaza will be pale compared to what will be happening very soon. Mark my words.
And more innocents will pay the ultimate price.
I’m sure if it’s Israel asuffering thousands upon thousands of casualties, a few couldn't care less. Just some pithy soliloquies, but what they really mean is “ just what they deserve”.
Then I guess Israel while fighting for it’s existence will fire off a few nukes.
What I said in a previous post was that we needed statesmen ( I apologise for the masculine but they were all men).

When there are disputes such as this what it needs is at least one side and probably both to say “whatever happens we will do a deal”. That’s what happened in the end with the troubles in Northern Ireland. The provisional IRA laid down their weapons, the loyalists who said they would never negotiate with terrorists sat down with Sinn Fein. There were cracks because taking a stance like that is not always popular. Statesmen

This was probably possible in the 1980s and 1990s with people like Perez and Rabin in Israel. Arafat compromised enormously just to be at the table, the PLOs acceptance of Israel’s right to exist was no small step. It was essentially forgoing the premise of its existence.

Not possible now, or at least not for many years, and even then only after a sustained period of peace which seems a million miles away.
 
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Hamas would not exist if not for the oppression of the Palestinians and fact they were thrown off their land starting in 1948.

The fact that the apologists for Israel and the Zionists refuse to acknowledge that events prior to October 7 led to the Hamas actions just shows they are unwilling to accept the history of the conflict. What Hamas did was wrong but it was entirely predictable.

I'll ask my question yet again: what should the Palestinians have done?

DS
Just wondering why you keep referencing 1948 and the Palestinians being kicked out by the Jews from this timeline as somehow significant David, when the reality is that this rumble of who owned what, where and when has been ongoing since biblical times? You keep running this narrative which is basically from just after WW2. Ancient history if you're a tic toccer, but in reality barely a blip in the history of a region and dispute that is thousands of years old. Pretty sure from my vague understanding of some of that old historical crap, them Jewish people copped a fair bit of kickin, displacement n enslavement from some of those Arabic people way back before all the dramas of WW1 or WW2. Perhaps from my perspective n others 1948 was simply a point in time where the Jewish people finally got given back a piece of their own original turf and since then they've simply decided that they're going to hang on to it against all comers regardless of who wants to have a crack at them. No more turning the other cheek so to speak n kick back even harder than they've been kicked.
 
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