-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
- Start date
- Status
Willo. This is my last post on this for a while, I am going to stay away
Colonialism is relevant because it created false borders. It created countries that aren't real countries and split tribes and also mixed tribes. It happened not just in the middle east and North Africa but all over Africa. So many wars can be traced back to this and so many disputes that still happen today. It is also relevant because many colonialist left little and poverty and desperation is a way of life for these people that are left.
A Croatian slav and a Serbian slav are as much the same people as a Palestinian Arab and an Egyptian Arab are. You group all Arabs together and separate others. Yemen is a long way from Morocco
You are in danger of dismissing or misusing facts . For instance when i say Iranians are not arabs you say some are but the fact is Iran is not an Arab country. You dismiss my statement that many of the rockets used by Hamas are re-used israeli ones but when I produce a NY times article on it, you say that many are from Iran and Syria etc when I never said they weren't. You use the Jewish purchase of land historically as somehow relevant to illegal settlements now when it has no relevance at all , what they are doing now is still illegal and brutal.
I can't keep on arguing this with you because there is no point. I am not going to change your mind and therefore every post just becomes words, so I will step away from this and debate with you whether Noah Balta will be a success as a forward instead.
Best wishes and let's hope for some level of peace.
I’ll respect your wishes, so won’t rebut anything more.
Probably sound advice, nobody posting here will change another’s mindset and opinion, so it’s getting to be a waste of time.
The same to you mate and let’s hope so.
The only real difference between those groups is their religion, not their ethnicity. Same as most of the conflicts in the middle east that you said is amongst their own. Shuni Muslims vs Shi'ite Muslims and I am sure there are others, Shia is another. What part of your point did I miss?
Wow, thats some racist view there.
I'll assume you've never heard of the civil wars that hit many european countries throughout many centuries from before 1000AD and running well into the 1800's then?
Religion is largely a reason given for war but most wars are fought over 1 thing and thats resources. Whether that be land for expansion, specific crops, specific natural resources it doesn't matter but almost all conflicts have this in common and as I say many have been against their own people or people with similar religious beliefs.
You talk about those with different sects of the same religion, so catholics haven't fought protestants before I assume? The Church of England hasn't fought anyone either I suppose? What about the Jewish religion, have they been involved in conflicts before?
The thing that seems to halt many wars is development. When you can develop your economy far enough that you don't need constant expansion to provide resources for your people then history tells us that peace tends to rise up. When shortages of resources appear, then it tends to lead to conflict regardless of religion.
Take the conflict we are talking about here with Israel and Palestine, simpletons will claims that this is a religious war between Jews and Muslims, but its not. The resource in question is land, and this is why I brought up the West Bank in a previous post that you scoffed at "because you hadn't said anything about the West Bank", but missed the point of why I brought it up. It is an example of Israels ultimate goals here, they aren't content with sharing a border with Palestinians, thats not what they want, they want more and more of their land, hence the increase in land grabs from the West Bank at the same time as the world is distracted by the war in Gaza. This has nothing to do with Hamas and its got so bad that the US have had to sanction Israelis in the West Bank due to their conduct. The US are hardly an example of the great moral compass, so it opens your eyes when they take a dislike to whats going on, yet all Israels response was, was something like "we uphold the law in the West Bank and punish lawbreakers so there was no need for these sanctions", yet have they arrested these lawbreakers? Why would they when they have sent their military to protect those lawbreakers as they are breaking the law.
Its a clear example of Israels aims with both areas of Palestine. Not religion, its resources driven.
Well at least I’m an exclusive racist. Not like quite a few on here that hide behind calling others racist. They should look at themselves.
Anti Israeli..does that make them racists. Or is it only if you mention Arabs.
Well now, we’re going to have a history lesson.
Instead of that how about you and others try to refute what I stated rather than deflecting from it.
And no I didn’t just mention different sects of the same religion. I stated many were the same religion but different countries with the same religion.
I didn’t scoff at anything. You quoted my post, then tried to make it something I didn’t say. If you wanted to, you could have your say about the West Bank without quoting my post.
I disagree it’s only about resources, it’s a major part of it, but religion has a big bearing on it as well. When Palestinians say it’s about control of Al Aqsa mosque, Dome of the Rock etc. “death to the Jews” “the Jewish state” etc points that out.
As to “sharing a border with Palestinians“ . Tell me why did Israel pull out all the settlements in Gaza in 2005? Why didn’t they just stay there then. I bet no one answer that with a straight answer. They find something else to blame Israel for.
And they would have stayed out if Hamas didn’t keep rocketing Israel time after time. They probably thought Israel would make a quick incursion into Gaza then leave again. Unfortunately for the Gazans, Hamas either miscalculated Israel’s response, or they knew and didn’t care. As long as they could use their PR machine and turn public opinion against Israel. One or the other, the result was a direct response to Hamas recent atrocities . After many others. Hamas must either be the dumbest of the dumb (not likely) or smart enough to know what Israel’s response would be (more likely) so they can manipulate the public. It seems they’ve succeeded to a large degree.
Now you mention the West Bank. Some land was purchased in the West Bank. Something that you and others don’t want to acknowledge. But it’s a fact.
Israel secretly bought land in West Bank: report
The secret land deals sought to acquire land in Area C of the West Bank, expanding illegal settlements and undermining the prospect of a two-state solution, according to a report.
I know Hamas aren’t in power there, but they have a presence there with the PA supposedly are in charge.
The illegal settlements I’ve already spoken about. But it looks like that falls on deaf eyes, or blind eyes.
I don’t agree with them and the Israeli settlers should be withdrawn. As I’ve said before.
Why haven’t Israel booted all the Palestinians out of the West Bank? Or killed them all off, seeing as they’re hellbent on the genocide of all Palestinians and are an apartheid state. Or is it a slowww eviction process when they build house by house?
I wonder why Jordan handed all responsibility for the West Bank back to Israel? Too big a problem for them to handle, they didn’t want more Palestinians. They actually booted thousands of Palestinians out in 1970, They took the vote off them, issued different passports, have to pay extra, hefty taxes, have no representation etc.
Wheres the outrage?
Black September - Wikipedia
Yes, Israel removed settlements from Gaza after the Oslo Accords, and then promptly did absolutely nothing to implement the accords which were supposed to lead to a Palestinian State. Of course, Rabin getting assassinated ended the process, but the reality is that the Palestinian state was not going anywhere. The whole Oslo Accord process was stalled deliberately by Israel.
Israel offered the Palestinians a Bantustan, a state where the neighboring, and belligerent, country (ie: Israel) controlled their security. That is not a state, it is not an arrangement any Palestinian leader could accept and not an arrangement the Palestinian people would accept. Why should they? The Israeli government claims that the Palestinians cannot have a proper state, they can only have a state without sovereign powers (ie: a bantustan) because Israel claims it needs to be able to control any Palestinian state apparently for security purposes. Israel have thrown Palestinians off their land, demolished their houses, killed thousands of Palestinians, bombed the crap out of Palestinian cities for decades, yet, apparently their security interests are irrelevant and only Israel's security interests need to be catered to.
We know what Israel's agenda is, we saw it on the map Netanyahu took to the UN in September, they want to throw the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, that is why they are not bothering to negotiate over hostages, rather, they are leveling Gaza and hoping the Palestinians leave, meanwhile the settlers in the West Bank continually encroach on the Palestinian territory and settlements slowly expand.
DS
Israel offered the Palestinians a Bantustan, a state where the neighboring, and belligerent, country (ie: Israel) controlled their security. That is not a state, it is not an arrangement any Palestinian leader could accept and not an arrangement the Palestinian people would accept. Why should they? The Israeli government claims that the Palestinians cannot have a proper state, they can only have a state without sovereign powers (ie: a bantustan) because Israel claims it needs to be able to control any Palestinian state apparently for security purposes. Israel have thrown Palestinians off their land, demolished their houses, killed thousands of Palestinians, bombed the crap out of Palestinian cities for decades, yet, apparently their security interests are irrelevant and only Israel's security interests need to be catered to.
We know what Israel's agenda is, we saw it on the map Netanyahu took to the UN in September, they want to throw the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, that is why they are not bothering to negotiate over hostages, rather, they are leveling Gaza and hoping the Palestinians leave, meanwhile the settlers in the West Bank continually encroach on the Palestinian territory and settlements slowly expand.
DS
Theres been enough to-ing and fro-ing on this thread, and yes I admit being part of it.
But
Serious question for anyone who wants to answer.
Given Israel isn’t just going to pack everyone up and move out. Please don’t just offer “pie in the sky” solutions but something that is genuinely achievable.
How does this get resolved?
But
Serious question for anyone who wants to answer.
Given Israel isn’t just going to pack everyone up and move out. Please don’t just offer “pie in the sky” solutions but something that is genuinely achievable.
How does this get resolved?
Well at least I’m an exclusive racist. Not like quite a few on here that hide behind calling others racist. They should look at themselves.
Anti Israeli..does that make them racists. Or is it only if you mention Arabs.
Well now, we’re going to have a history lesson.
Instead of that how about you and others try to refute what I stated rather than deflecting from it.
And no I didn’t just mention different sects of the same religion. I stated many were the same religion but different countries with the same religion.
I didn’t scoff at anything. You quoted my post, then tried to make it something I didn’t say. If you wanted to, you could have your say about the West Bank without quoting my post.
I disagree it’s only about resources, it’s a major part of it, but religion has a big bearing on it as well. When Palestinians say it’s about control of Al Aqsa mosque, Dome of the Rock etc. “death to the Jews” “the Jewish state” etc points that out.
As to “sharing a border with Palestinians“ . Tell me why did Israel pull out all the settlements in Gaza in 2005? Why didn’t they just stay there then. I bet no one answer that with a straight answer. They find something else to blame Israel for.
And they would have stayed out if Hamas didn’t keep rocketing Israel time after time. They probably thought Israel would make a quick incursion into Gaza then leave again. Unfortunately for the Gazans, Hamas either miscalculated Israel’s response, or they knew and didn’t care. As long as they could use their PR machine and turn public opinion against Israel. One or the other, the result was a direct response to Hamas recent atrocities . After many others. Hamas must either be the dumbest of the dumb (not likely) or smart enough to know what Israel’s response would be (more likely) so they can manipulate the public. It seems they’ve succeeded to a large degree.
Now you mention the West Bank. Some land was purchased in the West Bank. Something that you and others don’t want to acknowledge. But it’s a fact.
Owners took the money and ran.Israel secretly bought land in West Bank: report
The secret land deals sought to acquire land in Area C of the West Bank, expanding illegal settlements and undermining the prospect of a two-state solution, according to a report.www.newarab.com
I know Hamas aren’t in power there, but they have a presence there with the PA supposedly are in charge.
The illegal settlements I’ve already spoken about. But it looks like that falls on deaf eyes, or blind eyes.
I don’t agree with them and the Israeli settlers should be withdrawn. As I’ve said before.
Why haven’t Israel booted all the Palestinians out of the West Bank? Or killed them all off, seeing as they’re hellbent on the genocide of all Palestinians and are an apartheid state. Or is it a slowww eviction process when they build house by house?
I wonder why Jordan handed all responsibility for the West Bank back to Israel? Too big a problem for them to handle, they didn’t want more Palestinians. They actually booted thousands of Palestinians out in 1970, They took the vote off them, issued different passports, have to pay extra, hefty taxes, have no representation etc.
Wheres the outrage?
Black September - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
A lot to go through in there.
"And no I didn’t just mention different sects of the same religion. I stated many were the same religion but different countries with the same religion."
Even if that is what you said, you made out like war was essentially what all these countries do, and inferring that the rest of the non-Arab nations don't deal in war.
Lets go back to the Romans then, catholics on catholics for most of their wars.
How about Africa? West African wars are predominantly very similar, sure some areas have muslim populations and there is certainly an element of ethnic cleansing amongst some of this, as there is with other parts of the world, but war is certainly not the premise purely of those with an Arab background. Europe was at war with each other for many many centuries before this, and much of that was people of the same religion fighting other people of the same religion.
I agree the "trigger point" of this component of the fighting between Israel and Gaza and I would agree with you in that I think Hamas expected a response but certainly not as devastating as this, I suspect many of us expected something similar. I sure did. I think I said at the time, I don't understand why Hamas did this, I expected it to come back on them 3-4 fold, but around 10 fold at the moment with large parts of Gaza being flattened I think is most likely beyond most peoples thoughts back on October 7th. The ruthless and widespread devastation is nothing like most would have expected as a response by Israel.
"Tell me why did Israel pull out all the settlements in Gaza in 2005? Why didn’t they just stay there then. I bet no one answer that with a straight answer. They find something else to blame Israel for."
I think there's a very clear and straight answer here. It was a different Israel back then, governed by a more liberal government than the one we have now, which is the major difference. Look who are the biggest backers of Netanyahu are and you get an idea. Far more right wing and the government of today clearly have a different agenda towards Gaza and probably the West Bank than the government did 20 years ago.
"The illegal settlements I’ve already spoken about. But it looks like that falls on deaf eyes, or blind eyes.
I don’t agree with them and the Israeli settlers should be withdrawn. As I’ve said before.
Why haven’t Israel booted all the Palestinians out of the West Bank? Or killed them all off, seeing as they’re hellbent on the genocide of all Palestinians and are an apartheid state. Or is it a slowww eviction process when they build house by house?"
Its not on deaf ears or blind eyes. I know you have made that statement (and its good to see you don't support the settlements - and I know you have mentioned that a few times), but in terms of what outcomes are being driven and understanding the underlying agenda its clear whats happening in both is a similar agenda but the Hamas attack of October 7th gave the Israeli government a clearer path to act much quicker in Gaza. I wonder how many of them after the initial shock at the deaths on October 7th then reacted with glee at the opportunity this presented them? They don't have that opportunity in the West Bank, which is why it has to be almost attack by stealth. Why do you think the reports of West Bank land settlement clearing has increased since October 7th, its perfect political diversion. Ie. there is something else that takes all the headlines so they can take more landgrabs in the west bank and it won't be reported on as much as everyone is focused on the deaths in Gaza. There is a well known statement in politics, " a good day to release bad news". I believe they are working on a similar theory in the West Bank.
Just on the 2nd part of your statement above, its clear the Israelis want the narrative to be that they are defending their land (hence took this opportunity that Hamas presented them with), which they would be seen as doing in the West Bank if they just went in there like they have in Gaza. In that instance no elements of self defence can be argued, they would be the clear aggressors.
How does this get resolved?
The 2 state solution is dead and buried, even if it was ever a truly serious prospect, which I doubt.
A question no-one has been able to answer and which I posed multiple times back in October and later: what do you expect the Palestinians to do? They have been ignored for decades, were dispossessed in 1948 and are in a powerless situation. A situation which could only get worse of countries like Saudi Arabia signed a deal with Israel. They were and are desperate, desperate because they have been dispossessed of the place they live.
On the other hand, the Jews were persecuted for centuries in Europe and then the Nazis attempted to wipe them out. They wanted a homeland where they could be safe.
Trouble is, the Jewish homeland was created on land where others were already living. But, Israel exists and is not simply going to disappear.
As hard as it sounds a 1 state solution where Jews and Arabs live together in 1 country really is the only solution. This cannot happen while the current leadership in Israel remains. It also needs a renewal of the leadership of Fatah and they will need to marginalise Hamas. Not easy, but this has never been easy to resolve, and a 2 state solution is not difficult, rather, it is impossible.
I wrote the same thing maybe 40 pages ago.
The first step is to get some level of unbiased coverage from the Western media so sensible solutions can be discussed. The USA cannot be an honest broker in this, they are clearly on one side of the dispute. Israel is losing international support and the Israeli state is not looking as solid as it once did. Things are likely to change, but it is impossible to say in what way they change.
DS
The 2 state solution is dead and buried, even if it was ever a truly serious prospect, which I doubt.
A question no-one has been able to answer and which I posed multiple times back in October and later: what do you expect the Palestinians to do? They have been ignored for decades, were dispossessed in 1948 and are in a powerless situation. A situation which could only get worse of countries like Saudi Arabia signed a deal with Israel. They were and are desperate, desperate because they have been dispossessed of the place they live.
On the other hand, the Jews were persecuted for centuries in Europe and then the Nazis attempted to wipe them out. They wanted a homeland where they could be safe.
Trouble is, the Jewish homeland was created on land where others were already living. But, Israel exists and is not simply going to disappear.
As hard as it sounds a 1 state solution where Jews and Arabs live together in 1 country really is the only solution. This cannot happen while the current leadership in Israel remains. It also needs a renewal of the leadership of Fatah and they will need to marginalise Hamas. Not easy, but this has never been easy to resolve, and a 2 state solution is not difficult, rather, it is impossible.
I wrote the same thing maybe 40 pages ago.
The first step is to get some level of unbiased coverage from the Western media so sensible solutions can be discussed. The USA cannot be an honest broker in this, they are clearly on one side of the dispute. Israel is losing international support and the Israeli state is not looking as solid as it once did. Things are likely to change, but it is impossible to say in what way they change.
DS
There has to be 2 states allowed. 1 Israeli (which exists) and 1 Palestinian (possibly with 2 parts - ie. Gaza and the West Bank) where both are in control of their security. Until Palestine are in a position to provide this security themselves (on their side of the border), then the UN should be using peace keeping forces as they do in numerous other warzones and conflict zones all around the world. It simply cannot be controlled by Israel. If the UN need to man border crossing and the wall between the countries continues to be re-enforced and patrolled then it should be the UN that do that, not the power of the Israelis alone.
I can't see any other options being available, but I don't see Netanyahu agreeing to that. Even the recent peace demands that Hamas offered, from what was reported they appeared reasonable, but Netanyahu claimed that they were ridiculous.
As far as I can tell, posters are calling out the actions of the Israeli government, and the actions of those Israeli who are stealing Palestinian land. I don't think anyone here is suggesting there is an 'inherent problem' with Israelis, or Jewish people.
Well I’m sure of one thing.
I don’t have the answer for an outcome that would make the majority of the Palestinians and the Israelis content.
I say the majority, as it would be impossible to have a 100% consensus.
Smarter people than me have endeavoured to come up with solutions. All have failed so far.
Popular opinion with something all could live with in peace (and prosperity) but that relies on both leaderships being able to sit down and broker with forthright intentions seems impossible. Or has been up to now.
It seems that a 2 state solution is near impossible. Is the proposed land for Palestinians able to sustain their population ? I don’t know all the topography of viable farmland there. What could be manufactured that would give some semblance of prosperity? Decent jobs, decent income, funding for public infrastructure? Or would their rely on international aid to prop up their economy?
Its a hard topic.
A one state solution. Do Israelis fear they would be over populated with Palestinians, given the birth rate and large families. Would that affect parliamentary representation, jobs, etc.
Theres a lot to ponder. I’ve probably missed a lot of other factors.
I don’t have the answer for an outcome that would make the majority of the Palestinians and the Israelis content.
I say the majority, as it would be impossible to have a 100% consensus.
Smarter people than me have endeavoured to come up with solutions. All have failed so far.
Popular opinion with something all could live with in peace (and prosperity) but that relies on both leaderships being able to sit down and broker with forthright intentions seems impossible. Or has been up to now.
It seems that a 2 state solution is near impossible. Is the proposed land for Palestinians able to sustain their population ? I don’t know all the topography of viable farmland there. What could be manufactured that would give some semblance of prosperity? Decent jobs, decent income, funding for public infrastructure? Or would their rely on international aid to prop up their economy?
Its a hard topic.
A one state solution. Do Israelis fear they would be over populated with Palestinians, given the birth rate and large families. Would that affect parliamentary representation, jobs, etc.
Theres a lot to ponder. I’ve probably missed a lot of other factors.
Some of that crap is getting close to a hundred or more years ago now. We are so much more advanced and civilised in modern society these days and any dispute that involves anything more than polite and occasionally robust discussion is to be considered barbaric.
Guess what? A whole lot of that *smile* going on in the Middle East, some parts of Asia, some other African countries is *smile* barbaric. Yes there's a whole bunch of other European and Western countries happily involved in and also dabbling around the fringes of all of these *smile* fights. Welcome to the real world as it has always been, and will always be.
Yet without colonalism the world would still be stuck in it's little dark ages tribalism and all the little inter tribal border wars and poverty that went on all over the world hundreds of years ago. Whoa. Wait a minute, that's still going on now only on a much bigger scale, by all the nations that still want to hang onto their little corner of tribalism instead of becoming a one world tribe. *smile* humans, they've been nothing but arseholes ever since god invented them.
Here's a suggestion:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/07/israel-palestine-conflict-solution-peace
2 countries, a confederation - effectively something between a 1 and 2 state settlement and maybe they could become one state after a couple of decades.
There needs to be some solution, Israel kicking the can down the road and taking more land, the Palestinians with no hope and resorting to terrorism - no solutions there.
DS
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/07/israel-palestine-conflict-solution-peace
2 countries, a confederation - effectively something between a 1 and 2 state settlement and maybe they could become one state after a couple of decades.
There needs to be some solution, Israel kicking the can down the road and taking more land, the Palestinians with no hope and resorting to terrorism - no solutions there.
DS
Reckon that's a fair slap at the Willowy one there for a probably poorly described comment Poshy. Yep there's been plenty of " civil " wars between European countries and plenty of others over the last thousand or so years, some quite a bit more recent and some of those war hatreds still fester now. But the thing is, a lot of that warring was done as nations explored the world and brought their versions of govt and civilisation to their neighbours. Cough, cough. What's still going on in many of those Middle Eastern and African countries now is very similar to what happened a hell of a long time ago everywhere, and seems to show a refusal to accept and join into the current and future world, whatever it's foibles may be. Oh by the way, just in case you think I'm helping in picking sides between Muslims or Jewish or defending one above the other. Nah, they're all self centered destructive nut cases that have no interest in sharing anything, unfortunately for the rest of the world. *smile* humans, we're a bunch of arse holes.
- Status
