-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
- Start date
- Status
I didn’t dispute your point. It just has no relevance to anything that is happening.
Blockade or occupation are both forms of oppression and violence
USA fire bombed a Japanesse city Tokyo during world war 2 100,000 dead in one night Britain firebombed Dresden 75,000 dead in 1 night (almost all women and children
refugees) who would argue that the Germans or Japanesse didn't deserve it after the atrocities both nationss committed.
If you lead with attrocities and vile acts you run the rick of an overeaction comming back the other way.
P.S. I question the Tokyo and Dresden bombings as excessive but I wasn't alive then and don't understand the pressures of war at the time.
refugees) who would argue that the Germans or Japanesse didn't deserve it after the atrocities both nationss committed.
If you lead with attrocities and vile acts you run the rick of an overeaction comming back the other way.
P.S. I question the Tokyo and Dresden bombings as excessive but I wasn't alive then and don't understand the pressures of war at the time.
Correct.
If someone built a dwelling in your front and back yard, then in the middle of the night put a gun to the head of you and your children while you were sleeping and booted you out of your home, would you react or just accept it?
Serious question yandb.
You are correct it has no relevance to what is happening now.
But it is relevant to the point that others said Israel had been occupying Gaza before they invaded. They weren’t.
It is not a serious question Nico it is a loaded question as it has no basis on what is going on.
One side will only accept the total anilhation of the other and not accept them as a neighbour under any circumstances.
The other has already ceeded rulership in tracts of their land since their formation and wars in the name of peace but it has achived nothing.
So this someone you speak of is more like the person who has been allowed to live in to your front and back yard. (Gaza strip and the west bank)
And is now breaking into your house to rape your wife and daughters and chop off the heads of your children and when you defend yourself with rightous anger the
neighbour calls the cops and press and he pretends to be the victim.
Now you might say that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are occupied land and belong to the Palestinians but war has consequences and the 1967 war to anhiliate the
nation of Israel failed and loss of land resulted. Please note that Egypt was in control of the Gaza strip from 1948 to 1967 (execpt for 1956) and the treatment of the
Palastinians by the Egyptians was abominable. Despite the poor treatment of the Palastinians by the Egyptians did the Palastinians attack the Egyptians no they
committed terrorist acts against Israel and have not stopped for 70 years. Except for short lived peace deals.
Just for some context the fillowing list is the Palastinian 2023 terror acts up until the Oct 7 massacre.
Notice the prefered target is unarmed civilians.
One side will only accept the total anilhation of the other and not accept them as a neighbour under any circumstances.
The other has already ceeded rulership in tracts of their land since their formation and wars in the name of peace but it has achived nothing.
So this someone you speak of is more like the person who has been allowed to live in to your front and back yard. (Gaza strip and the west bank)
And is now breaking into your house to rape your wife and daughters and chop off the heads of your children and when you defend yourself with rightous anger the
neighbour calls the cops and press and he pretends to be the victim.
Now you might say that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are occupied land and belong to the Palestinians but war has consequences and the 1967 war to anhiliate the
nation of Israel failed and loss of land resulted. Please note that Egypt was in control of the Gaza strip from 1948 to 1967 (execpt for 1956) and the treatment of the
Palastinians by the Egyptians was abominable. Despite the poor treatment of the Palastinians by the Egyptians did the Palastinians attack the Egyptians no they
committed terrorist acts against Israel and have not stopped for 70 years. Except for short lived peace deals.
Just for some context the fillowing list is the Palastinian 2023 terror acts up until the Oct 7 massacre.
| August 21 | Batsheva Nagari (40) | Nagari was killed when a terrorist in a passing car shot at her car while she was driving on the highway. |
|---|---|---|
| August 19 | Aviad Nir (28), Silas (Shai) Nigreker (60) | Aviad and his father Silas were shot and killed at a car wash in the Palestinian town of Huwara. |
| August 5 | Chen Amir (42) | A gunman from Jenin, West Bank, shot and killed an Israeli security guard. |
| June 20 | Ofer Fayerman (64), Harel Masood (21), Elisha Anteman (17), and Shmuel Mordoff (17) | Palestinian gunmen affiliated with Hamas opened fire at a gas station in the West Bank, killing four Israelis and wounding four others. |
| May 30 | Meir Tamari (32) | He was shot while driving on a road near his home in the West Bank community of Hermesh. |
| May 11 | Inga Avramyan (80) | Killed when a rocket fired from Gaza by PIJ scored a direct hit on an apartment in Rehovot. |
| April 7 | Lucy Dee (48), Maia Dee (20), Rina Dee (15), Alessandro Parini, (35) | Lucy Dee and her two daughters were killed in a shooting attack in the Gilboa region. Parini was killed when a terrorist rammed a car into people walking on the promenade at the beach in Tel Aviv. |
| March 9 | Or Eshkar (32) | Or Eshkar died on March 20 after he was seriously wounded by a Palestinian gunman in Tel Aviv. |
| February 27 | Elan Ganeles (27) | Elan Ganeles was shot dead by a Palestinian terrorist on a highway between Jericho and the Dead Sea. |
| February 26 | Hallel Yaniv (21) Yagel Yaniv (19) | Hallel Yaniv and Yagel Yaniv, two brothers from Har Bracha, were murdered when a Palestinian gunman opened fire from close range at their car while it was caught in a traffic jam on the Route 60 highway near Huwara. |
| February 11 | Asher Menahem Paley (8) | Paley succumbed to wounds sustained in a car-ramming attack in Ramot. |
| February 10 | Shlomo Liderman (20), Yaakov Yisrael Paley (6), Asher Menahem Paley (8) | A Palestinian rammed his car into civilians at a Jerusalem bus stop, immediately killing a 6-year-old boy and a 20-year-old man. The boy’s 8-year-old brother died later from his injuries. |
| January 27 | Eli (48) and Natalie Mizrahi (45), Rafael Ben-Eliyahu (56), Asher Natan (14), Shaul Chai (68), Irina Korolova (59), Ilya Sosonsky (26), | At the conclusion of Friday night prayers, a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on a crowd in Jerusalem’s Neve Yaakov neighborhood, killing seven and wounding three. |
Notice the prefered target is unarmed civilians.
Nico get a life. Face the facts head on. Palestinian Hamas run Gaza crossed the border unannounced committed atrocities we are all aware of. Israeli now eliminating Hamas & to that is to destroy Gaza. Civilian casualties will occur & that is what happens when all *smile* hell breaks loose. Hamas stay their side of the border civilian casualties zero. Hamas to blame.
Good post yandb.
Here’s an interesting observation from The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...any-progressives-except-when-it-comes-to-jews
Here’s an interesting observation from The Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...any-progressives-except-when-it-comes-to-jews
Can you also list the names of the dead Palestinians at the hands of Isreali terrorists?
Whether it is occupation or blockade is of no relevance at all. The facts are relevant, those are words.
You can’t use semantics to justify what Israel has done in Gaza and we always have to remember that Palestinians don’t just live in Gaza, they live in the West Bank as well.( and in East Jerusalem)
Of course there was also a war in 2014 which was (according to Israel) triggered by the murder of a few Israeli teenagers, something that of course we would all condemn. Over 2000 people were killed in that war, about 75% of them were civilians. Like this war Israel said they wanted to destroy Hamas’ ability to launch rockets and said they succeeded ( how did that go?).
This war will have similar but worse loss of life and the consequences will be the same. They won’t destroy Hamas, they are creating a whole new generation of militants.
Israel can only have peace by making peace.
Last edited:
It would be a very long list
Terrorism is terrorism no matter who perpetrates it. That fact that so many ignore the terrorism of the state of Israel is just incredible to me.
The targets of almost all terrorists are unarmed civilians. There are about 2 million of them in Gaza at the moment having the *smile* bombed out of them
You have rewritten history. The Palestinians did not oppose Egyptian rule because Nasser was a great supporter of the Palestinian cause and they believe the only way they could get Palestine back was through Egypt. Of course that was a false hope. Palestine during that time was ruled by Palestinians but under Egypt’s political control. It was not ideal but to equivalise life in Gaza then to the Israeli blockade of Gaza with a massive Great Wall around it is just not true.
You are correct to say that one side has ceded territory and it has got them nowhere. In the 1993 Oslo peace agreement the PLO representing all Palestinians acknowledged Israel’s right to exist and agreed to terms that would give them rule over Gaza, the West Bank and joint rule of Jerusalem with East Jerusalem being Palestinian, formally ceding the rest of what was Palestine prior to the 1948 Naqba to Israel.
Israel agreed to that as well. It is the two state solution which has been ratified by the UN. The support of the 2 state solution is also official Australian government policy
Sin get a life with Nico. You keep flogging this & that but fail to endorse the fact Palestine Hamas personnel crossed the border uninvited & committed atrocious act against Israeli's. What has happened since is Hamas/Palestinians fault so stop blaming Israel .
The fact that you gave a list of Palestinian atrocities, but failed to include a list of Israeli atrocities speaks volumes. Oh and maybe include some references because I don't think some of the things you wrote about are...um, how can I put it.....factual.
50,000 Palestinian homes destroyed in the last 50 years, to make way for 600,000+ illegal Israeli settlers. 100000 hectares of land appropriated by Israel from Palestinians since 1967. Just regular folk trying to make a living. Violent attacks by Israeli soldiers and settlers.
Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession
Mass human rights violations during the 50-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians.
www.amnesty.org
The following documents Israeli torture up until 2008: https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde150402008en.pdf
Just one excerpt (from many) from page 17 regarding the demolition of Palestinian homes:
"In one case, a home was bulldozed by the Israeli army at night on 6 April 2002 with 10 members of a single family inside.
Eight members of the al-Shu’bi family were killed, including three children, their pregnant mother and their 85-year-old grandfather.
According to local residents no warnings were given before the house was bulldozed and the Israeli army failed to ensure that there were no people in the house before demolishing it.
It was not until 12 April 2002, when the strict 24-hour curfew imposed on Nablus was lifted for two hours, that relatives and neighbours found the bodies; they did so by digging through the rubble at night, in rainy conditions, while ignoring Israeli army warning shots. At the same time, they also rescued two members of the family, Abdallah al-Shu’bi, aged 68, and his wife Shamsa, 67, who were still alive six days after they had first been trapped in the rubble".
Close to 3,000 Palestinians are being held under "Administrative Detention" which is detention without charge or trial that can be renewed indefinitely. They are not informed of any charges, and cannot seek legal representation. ie, they are kidnapped. They are routinely tortured, and humiliated by their captors. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...an-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/
One quote by a victim:
“One of the Israeli officers who came, approached me and kicked me on my left side, then jumped on my head with his two legs pushing my face further into the dirt and then continued kicking me as I was head down, into the dirt, with my hands tied behind my back. He then got a knife and tore all of my clothes off except for my underwear and used part of my torn clothes to blindfold me. The beating to the rest of my body did not stop, at one point he started jumping on my back – three or four times – while yelling ‘die, die you trash’ … in the end before this finally stopped, another officer urinated on my face and body while also yelling at us ‘to die’.”
A lot of them are young Palestinians. Here's a quote from Israeli human rights organization HaMoked: https://hamoked.org/document.php?dID=Updates2322
"On July, 5, 2022, HaMoked sent to the military a complaint on behalf of AA, who had suffered beatings, ill-treatment and sexual abuse at the hand of soldiers following his arrest from his home in the early hours of January 12, 2022. The incident took place in the context of the military’s ongoing, pernicious policy of preplanned night arrests of Palestinian minors, rather than using summons as the default to bring minors in for interrogation. These traumatic night arrests are routinely accompanied by violence, and often cause long-term mental harm not only to the detainees but also to the rest of their family, including younger siblings.
In AA’s case, during the raid of his home, soldiers seized his father without any cause, handcuffed him and made him sit outside, separated from his wife and children. The soldiers also forcefully took away the mobile phone of AA’s older sister when she tried to document their actions. And when his younger sisters, 13 and 4, started crying, one of the soldiers picked up the 4-year-old, sat her on the sofa and ordered her not to move, preventing her from going to her mother.
AA himself was taken from his home handcuffed and blindfolded. He was made to sit in the spare wheel storage of the military vehicle, rather than in the safety of a passenger seat, even though being handcuffed meant he could not properly stabilize himself during the bumpy ride. At the beginning of the ride, stones were thrown at the vehicle, and each time the vehicle was struck, soldiers would hit AA with the butt of their weapons. The military vehicle stopped at a military base, and there AA was made to sit outside on a wooden platform for at least four hours, exposed to the extreme winter cold. His request to be taken inside out of the cold was denied. And even when he asked to go to the bathroom, he was taken to relieve himself out in the open.
Up to this point, AA’s experience was typical of soldiers’ ill-treatment and violence during a night arrest a Palestinian minor. But then the abuse escalated: shortly before he was transferred, about five soldiers decided without any reason or legal justification, to strip-search the minor who was still blindfolded; this, despite the fact that such a search is allowed only when there is a suspicion that the person is in possession of a prohibited and dangerous object – which is extremely unlikely under the circumstances, given that AA had been constantly guarded by soldiers since his arrest hours earlier. Completely naked and vulnerable, AA was then ordered to repeatedly squat and stand up, while the soldiers were laughing at him and photographing him. The soldiers continued laughing and photographing him even as one of the soldiers exposed his genitals and brought them close to the boy’s mouth. AA told HaMoked’s attorney that he heard everything and also saw from under his blindfold what the soldiers were doing, none of whom came to his rescue to stop the abuse and humiliation.
In its complaint, HaMoked wrote that violence and sexual abuse towards a handcuffed and blindfolded person who is clearly helpless and poses no threat, is a grave, cruel and inhuman act, amounting to torture when the victim is a minor. HaMoked noted that despite this being an exceptional case, several aspects of it reflect widespread practices among Israeli soldiers, which the military has made no serious attempt to eradicate".
The use of 2,000 pound bombs in residential areas in Gaza (even the US don't use these bombs in built-up areas), the use of white phosphorus bombs Seriously, these *smiles* are flipping the bird.
...and you wonder why the Palestinians ark up occasionally against the Israelis.
I don't intend to change anyone's minds...most equate white faces with good, and brown faces with bad anyway.
The story of Mia Schem, the Israeli-French hostage was shocking. I have daughter and I don't know what I would do if something like that happened to her. Would the world react the same way if the same thing happened to a 21yo Palestinian young woman while she was being held under "administrative detention"?
Hamas is a barbaric terrorist organisation, and the Israeli Government is barbaric, genocidal government who is committing Apartheid against the Palestinian people.
To quote Nabil el-Kurd, one of the residents under threat of forced eviction in the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah:
"I do not know why the entire world is watching what is happening and letting Israel get away with it? It is time the world stopped spoiling Israel"
Got me stumped Nabil. Any other country in the world would be universally condemned, but Israel get a pass-out.
What the *smile* is going on?
Here is a statement by an 18 year old Israeli conscientious objector who is going to jail for holding these views. It sums up what so many are saying.
I haven’t tried to justify anything.
I think we all agree the death toll of civilians and the innocent is abhorrent. On either side, in all conflicts
The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967. From the beginning, the area’s chief economic and social problem was the presence of large numbers of Palestinian Arab refugees living in extreme poverty in squalid camps. The Egyptian government did not consider the area part of Egypt and did not allow the refugees to become Egyptian citizens or to migrate to Egypt or to other Arab countries where they might be integrated into the population.
www.britannica.com
I do my research Nico What Egypt did was treat the citirzens of the Gaza as prisoners in a giant open air prison.
I note also you also do your research, kudos.
Gaza Strip | Definition, History, Facts, & Map | Britannica
Gaza Strip, territory along the Mediterranean Sea just northeast of the Sinai Peninsula. It is densely populated and impoverished, in part due to the ongoing political situation of the region. It became a center of tension in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when Hamas seized control of the area...
www.britannica.com
I do my research Nico What Egypt did was treat the citirzens of the Gaza as prisoners in a giant open air prison.
I note also you also do your research, kudos.
You are rewriting history a bit.The Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military rule from 1949 to 1956 and again from 1957 to 1967. From the beginning, the area’s chief economic and social problem was the presence of large numbers of Palestinian Arab refugees living in extreme poverty in squalid camps. The Egyptian government did not consider the area part of Egypt and did not allow the refugees to become Egyptian citizens or to migrate to Egypt or to other Arab countries where they might be integrated into the population.
Gaza Strip | Definition, History, Facts, & Map | Britannica
Gaza Strip, territory along the Mediterranean Sea just northeast of the Sinai Peninsula. It is densely populated and impoverished, in part due to the ongoing political situation of the region. It became a center of tension in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when Hamas seized control of the area...
I do my research Nico What Egypt did was treat the citirzens of the Gaza as prisoners in a giant open air prison.
I note also you also do your research, kudos.
Between 1948 and 1956 Gaza was in chaos. It was essentially where many of the Palestinians dispossessed in the Naqba went. It was under Egyptian rule but Egypt itself was chaotic and in fact lost control of Gaza in the Suez crisis in 1956.
Nasser, who was seen as an Arab hero by many was a supporter of Palestinian autonomy but Egypt as a country was a chaotic mess. There were also lots of groups in Gaza then and it was a hotbed of dissent but still most palestinians saw their only hope of autonomy was through the Arabs i.e. Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The problem was they were militarily inept but also outgunned by Israel who had so much western support.
The annexation of the Gaza Strip and essentially Israeli control was not some liberation for the Palestinians in Gaza even though their lives under Egypt and the Arab union during that time were not great.
To equivalise that time to now is a false equivalence but even if it was I am not sure of the relevance. Whatever Egypt did or didn’t do the fact is that many of the Palestinians who were there because of the 1948 Naqba. They were thrown out of their own homes. Egypt didn’t cause them to be there in the first place and in fact they fought for Palestinians with other Arab nations in the period after 1948 when Ben-gurion pronounced the Jewish state.
- Status
