Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Palestine and Israel

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I miss his take on most things. What a fascinating character he was.

yeah Hitch was great on Palestine, atheism and was a brilliant orator too. Massive intellect. Got sucked into the US Dep of State Iraq disaster as a pet intellectual post-9/11 - intellectual hubris did that.

Would be fascinating to see what he would make of that and the state of the world now.
 

Example of the infowars that we are all so used to these days. You just don't know what to believe as there are both sides trying to denigrate actual reporting of information. It makes you question so much. Ie. was the attack by Hamas even as big as they said? Obviously the dead isn't overstated, but it does make you question the numbers. I mean 1500 terrorists running amok for upto 6 hours with semi automatic weapons and they "only" kill 1400 people and capture another 200? Really? 1 guy has just shot up Maine and killed 16 people in a matter of 10-15 mins or so (and is now on the run), but we should believe that heavily armed terrorists have killed at less than 1 person per shooter for the entire 6 hour operation?

My suspicion is that the attack was conducted by a much smaller group of people than 1500, either that or they are the some of the most ineffective shooters in the world, but its inevitable that all wars now are partly conducted via the media, setting the narrative as to how you want it to play out.
 
So, over 7,000 Palestinian civilian deaths so far and counting. The whole world is calling for a ceasefire except the US and it's western puppets. It shouldn't surprise really when the same western allies killed 1 million Iraqis not too long ago.
 
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A UN Resolution for a "humanitarian truce" overwhelmingly passed.

Yes: 120 votes
No: 14 votes (inc. Israel and the US)
Abstained: 45 votes (inc. Australia and the UK)

"I welcome the growing global consensus for a humanitarian pause in the conflict. I repeat my call for a humanitarian ceasefire, the unconditional release of all hostages, and the delivery of life-saving supplies at the scale needed.

Misery is growing by the minute.

Without a fundamental change, the people of Gaza will face an unprecedented avalanche of human suffering.

Everyone must assume their responsibilities. This is a moment of truth. History is judging us all"
. United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres

Weak as p!ss Australia

 
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Someone recently made a comment to me about South Africa and the ANC and a comparison which bears some thought.

It is an interesting comparison they made.

Back in the 1960s to the 1980s the ANC were often labelled a terrorist organisation. The did set up MK (uMkhonto we Sizwe or Spear of the Nation) as their armed wing after peaceful actions failed and their situation was seemingly hopeless.

They did blow up a couple of things, but the point made was that you would never have seen MK do what Hamas did. This is a reasonable point, there is no way MK would have attacked citizens in South Africa with the express goal of killing civilians like Hamas did. So the point is well made, Hamas' actions are well beyond what is acceptable.

But this comparison is one sided.

The South African government did shoot protesters and killed a lot of black South Africans. But the same comparison can be made between the South African government and the Israel government. The South African government would never have carpet bombed the bantustans, nor would they starve them of food, power and water.

Both sides in this conflict are more than willing to treat the other side as if they are somehow sub-human.

I have often thought that the Israelis did not learn the lesson of South Africa. Negotiate with the more moderate older leadership while you have the chance (ie: the PLO and Arafat) because if you don't then you will end up facing off with the young radicals. Yes, Israel did do a deal with Arafat and the PLO but they did not do a real deal. The deal in South Africa was a real resolution to the problem, it abolished apartheid. The deals with the PLO were not a real 2 state solution, and they did not abide by them anyway, the ongoing settlements creeping further and further into what was meant to be a Palestinian state under a 2 state solution have made the Oslo Accords irrelevant, add to that the way Israel treats the West Bank and Gaza as territories they control and you have no solution at all.

There are 2 realities here:
  1. Israel exists, it is not about to disappear.
  2. Israel exists on land which was where the Palestinians lived prior to 1948.
These 2 realities cannot be reconciled with a 2 state solution any more (if they ever could), the disjointed nature of the Palestinian territories and the incursions by Israeli settlements has rendered this impossible. But a 1 state solution cannot be agreed to by Israel as they know the demographics are against them. Plus, there are so many issues around the right of return, for both displaced Palestinians and Jews fleeing anti-semitism, that it would be very difficult.

Not sure where we go from here. The Israeli policy of kicking the can down the road and consolidating the existence of the State of Israel has served their interests, but it was always going to be a short to medium term solution. In terms of a long term solution it offers nothing. The Palestinians are not going to go out of existence and they have a legitimate grievance over the way they were removed to create the State of Israel. The Palestinians may feel hopeless and are desperate, but the actions of Hamas don't help their cause. Yes, a short term hit in terms of an international focus on Israel/Palestine, but in terms of a solution it offers nothing.

Depressing really, I think the only long term solution is 1 state, but that is so difficult, in fact impossible, as it stands now.

What a mess.

DS
 
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Check out 'The Balfour Declaration'.
Made by the British in 1917 during WW1.
It's the paper that loosely opened the door for the Zionist foothold in Palestine and
long before the horrors of later years.
The British continue to play a part in the years leading up to WW2 and beyond. Of course they do.
 
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Someone recently made a comment to me about South Africa and the ANC and a comparison which bears some thought.

It is an interesting comparison they made.

Back in the 1960s to the 1980s the ANC were often labelled a terrorist organisation. The did set up MK (uMkhonto we Sizwe or Spear of the Nation) as their armed wing after peaceful actions failed and their situation was seemingly hopeless.

They did blow up a couple of things, but the point made was that you would never have seen MK do what Hamas did. This is a reasonable point, there is no way MK would have attacked citizens in South Africa with the express goal of killing civilians like Hamas did. So the point is well made, Hamas' actions are well beyond what is acceptable.

But this comparison is one sided.

The South African government did shoot protesters and killed a lot of black South Africans. But the same comparison can be made between the South African government and the Israel government. The South African government would never have carpet bombed the bantustans, nor would they starve them of food, power and water.

Both sides in this conflict are more than willing to treat the other side as if they are somehow sub-human.

I have often thought that the Israelis did not learn the lesson of South Africa. Negotiate with the more moderate older leadership while you have the chance (ie: the PLO and Arafat) because if you don't then you will end up facing off with the young radicals. Yes, Israel did do a deal with Arafat and the PLO but they did not do a real deal. The deal in South Africa was a real resolution to the problem, it abolished apartheid. The deals with the PLO were not a real 2 state solution, and they did not abide by them anyway, the ongoing settlements creeping further and further into what was meant to be a Palestinian state under a 2 state solution have made the Oslo Accords irrelevant, add to that the way Israel treats the West Bank and Gaza as territories they control and you have no solution at all.

There are 2 realities here:
  1. Israel exists, it is not about to disappear.
  2. Israel exists on land which was where the Palestinians lived prior to 1948.
These 2 realities cannot be reconciled with a 2 state solution any more (if they ever could), the disjointed nature of the Palestinian territories and the incursions by Israeli settlements has rendered this impossible. But a 1 state solution cannot be agreed to by Israel as they know the demographics are against them. Plus, there are so many issues around the right of return, for both displaced Palestinians and Jews fleeing anti-semitism, that it would be very difficult.

Not sure where we go from here. The Israeli policy of kicking the can down the road and consolidating the existence of the State of Israel has served their interests, but it was always going to be a short to medium term solution. In terms of a long term solution it offers nothing. The Palestinians are not going to go out of existence and they have a legitimate grievance over the way they were removed to create the State of Israel. The Palestinians may feel hopeless and are desperate, but the actions of Hamas don't help their cause. Yes, a short term hit in terms of an international focus on Israel/Palestine, but in terms of a solution it offers nothing.

Depressing really, I think the only long term solution is 1 state, but that is so difficult, in fact impossible, as it stands now.

What a mess.

DS
By saying the Israelis should negotiate with the more moderate Palestinians is really laying out the scenario of 1993 Oslo agreement.
The PLO stopped fighting, acknowledged Israel’s right to exist (which was huge at the time) and negotiated the 2 state agreement.
Even before this war that agreement was dead because there are Israelis living on the land that was agreed to be Part of Palestine.
I have said it before and I will say it again. If any other country in the world did what the Jewish state has done to the Palestinians they would be international pariahs. But if you say that you are anti semitic
 
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A UN Resolution for a "humanitarian truce" overwhelmingly passed.

Yes: 120 votes
No: 14 votes (inc. Israel and the US)
Abstained: 45 votes (inc. Australia and the UK)

"I welcome the growing global consensus for a humanitarian pause in the conflict. I repeat my call for a humanitarian ceasefire, the unconditional release of all hostages, and the delivery of life-saving supplies at the scale needed.

Misery is growing by the minute.

Without a fundamental change, the people of Gaza will face an unprecedented avalanche of human suffering.

Everyone must assume their responsibilities. This is a moment of truth. History is judging us all"
. United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres

Weak as p!ss Australia

I am truly embarrassed by our government over this.

UNICEF have staff in Gaza who the UN has lost contact with. If Israel kills UN staff doing nothing more than providing humanitarian aid it truly is a horror.

By the way there are people all over the world who work in these areas providing aid. I have known many of them in my life and they truly are heroes. Their selflessness is unbelievable. I bet organisations like MSF are still there
 
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By saying the Israelis should negotiate with the more moderate Palestinians is really laying out the scenario of 1993 Oslo agreement.
The PLO stopped fighting, acknowledged Israel’s right to exist (which was huge at the time) and negotiated the 2 state agreement.
Even before this war that agreement was dead because there are Israelis living on the land that was agreed to be Part of Palestine.
I have said it before and I will say it again. If any other country in the world did what the Jewish state has done to the Palestinians they would be international pariahs. But if you say that you are anti semitic
Correct
 
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Going pretty much as expected, bound to get much worse . Palestinians can thank Hamas for that., 10 of thousands more will perish before this is over, and Israel will come out stronger ( as it does after most conflicts) and Palestinians in Gaza worse off than ever before.
 
Yep, a lot of sense from the former PM of France. The issue at the moment is that there is a military solution sought for a political problem. We can keep going down this road but it resolves nothing.

I don't see how Israel is stronger when it continues to exist only by oppressing the Palestinians and living with the fear of a response. It is not a solution. Israel has managed to keep the Palestinian issue out of the press for quite a while, but the issue never went away.

I have been watching this issue for decades and there is a shift in sentiment, the support for Israel is more questioning than it used to be, there is more sympathy for the Palestinians.

A genuine solution is needed, it won't happen now for quite a while after what Hamas did, but there was no progress before their murderous incursion into Israel. It was a stale mate which Israel wanted to continue, but as de Villepin points out, that doesn't really serve Israel's long term interests, even if they think it does.

Somehow the deadlock needs to be broken, but the observations of de Villepin above do not inspire confidence.

DS
 
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Going pretty much as expected, bound to get much worse . Palestinians can thank Hamas for that., 10 of thousands more will perish before this is over, and Israel will come out stronger ( as it does after most conflicts) and Palestinians in Gaza worse off than ever before.
This is undoubtedly true but the question remains of what would be the position of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank if the Hamas attack had not occurred?

That should not for one moment be seen as support for the attack which was barbaric, but Palestinians in Gaza would still be in a walled city, starved of water and power unable to live like normal human beings. The citizens of the West Bank would still be seeing their land guaranteed under UN resolutions settled illegally by Israel. The Arab citizens of Israel would still have unequal rights with Jews in their own country.

Until this is solved no war, no mass destruction and no deaths of innocent Palestinians is going to solve anything except the desire for vengeance.

This is why millions of people around the world marched yesterday, including me. It is not for Hamas, who are extremists making things worse, it was for the people of Palestine who deserve dignity and the enforcement of agreements guaranteeing them land and basic human rights.

Apart from the loss of life the shame of the Hamas attack it that it has given Israel and others the opportunity to shift the narrative from this tragedy and injustice and the illegal activities of Netanyahu.

Ceasefire in Gaza now!
 
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This is undoubtedly true but the question remains of what would be the position of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank if the Hamas attack had not occurred?

That should not for one moment be seen as support for the attack which was barbaric, but Palestinians in Gaza would still be in a walled city, starved of water and power unable to live like normal human beings. The citizens of the West Bank would still be seeing their land guaranteed under UN resolutions settled illegally by Israel. The Arab citizens of Israel would still have unequal rights with Jews in their own country.

Until this is solved no war, no mass destruction and no deaths of innocent Palestinians is going to solve anything except the desire for vengeance.

This is why millions of people around the world marched yesterday, including me. It is not for Hamas, who are extremists making things worse, it was for the people of Palestine who deserve dignity and the enforcement of agreements guaranteeing them land and basic human rights.

Apart from the loss of life the shame of the Hamas attack it that it has given Israel and others the opportunity to shift the narrative from this tragedy and injustice and the illegal activities of Netanyahu.

Ceasefire in Gaza now!
Well if you think the people of Gaza are better of now than a month ago, then so be it.
 
Going pretty much as expected, bound to get much worse . Palestinians can thank Hamas for that., 10 of thousands more will perish before this is over, and Israel will come out stronger ( as it does after most conflicts) and Palestinians in Gaza worse off than ever before.
Stronger? They will simply create another generation of activists/terrorists and condemn their own population to live in a constant state of fear.

And, as DS suggests, the support for their "side" will be reduced further.
 
Well if you think the people of Gaza are better of now than a month ago, then so be it.
Where did I say that ?

In fact I said this

“This is why millions of people around the world marched yesterday, including me. It is not for Hamas, who are extremists making things worse”
 
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