Palestine and Israel

[Sintiger]

On Ireland. If we're going to somehow use the IRA analogy then it would follow that Hamas lay down its arms against the Jewish occupier just as PIRA laid down its arms against the English occupier.

The Provisionals realized the world had moved on and being linked to other terror groups was no longer acceptable especially to their American backers. They also understood that Catholics would not be a minority in the north in the near future.
For Hamas to do this they would have to rewrite their charter removing all their pathological religious hate for Israel and its people.

The provisional IRA didn’t lay down their arms in exchange for nothing. It was a 2 way street. It involved a lot of good faith negotiations from all sides

The laying down of arms and the acceptance that the state of Israel has a right to exist happened in 1993 when the PLO was the dominant force in Palestine. All Israel had to do was 2 things , stop building settlements and accept Palestinian access to west Jerusalem. They did neither. Hamas gave them an excuse but the PLO could not control Hamas, even though they were a fringe group then.

Israel may well obliterate Gaza but they can’t kill 2 million people.

 

[Redford]

The provisional IRA didn’t lay down their arms in exchange for nothing. It was a 2 way street. It involved a lot of good faith negotiations from all sides

The laying down of arms and the acceptance that the state of Israel has a right to exist happened in 1993 when the PLO was the dominant force in Palestine. All Israel had to do was 2 things , stop building settlements and accept Palestinian access to west Jerusalem. They did neither. Hamas gave them an excuse but the PLO could not control Hamas, even though they were a fringe group then.

Israel may well obliterate Gaza but they can’t kill 2 million people.

Nor the other 3 million in the West Bank either.

 

[Sintiger]

I found this x Twitter thread from a human rights lawyer quite interesting on the legality under international law of what has happened and is happening now.

https://x.com/profsarahj/status/1710757147674558617?s=42&t=gY4YhRzn7NxB8b9YJ0kA0w

 

[TigerForce]

Dumbf*ck neo-Nazi gang get on the train questioning a person carrying a blue and white hanky if they are Jewish. Cops just following the pricks around the city. Can't get more stupid than this. Looks like lolnorf and Pussy supporters better cover up.

 

[DavidSSS]

Hamas' recent attack on Israel certainly has not done the Palestinian cause any good, mind you, it has put the Palestinian cause back on the front of the newspapers and embarrassed Israel. I figure they would have been thinking that Gaza has been bombed, innocent civilians killed, for the last 16 years (and longer) and no-one blinks an eye or has any concern. The siege of the population in Gaza continues, the settlements continue to shrink Gaza and the West Bank and Israel continues to get little condemnation and much support. None of this justifies Hamas' actions, but one should always look at the possible motivations, if for nothing else than to try and prevent future actions such as this.

But this does get back to the question I asked earlier: what should the Palestinians do which might actually have an impact on their situation? No-one seems to have an answer. Until there is a credible strategy they could follow, some will join groups like Hamas and perpetrate terrorist acts. They really are that desperate.

Dumbf*ck neo-Nazi gang get on the train questioning a person carrying a blue and white hanky if they are Jewish. Cops just following the pricks around the city. Can't get more stupid than this. Looks like lolnorf and Pussy supporters better cover up.

Aah, this is a real issue. It is certainly something the Palestinian cause needs to address. There is an element of antisemitism not just amongst the neo-nazis but also from some elements of those who advocate for the Palestinian cause. They need to tell any neo-nazis who turn up at their rallies to f**ck off in no uncertain terms, and they need to actually address the issue of antisemitism in their ranks. Anti Zionism is opposition to a particular political project, antisemitism is just racism. The Jews have put up with antisemitism for way too long, there is no need for antisemitism, it is counter-productive and, most importantly, it is morally reprehensible.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

Dumbf*ck neo-Nazi gang get on the train questioning a person carrying a blue and white hanky if they are Jewish. Cops just following the pricks around the city. Can't get more stupid than this. Looks like lolnorf and Pussy supporters better cover up.

Dickheads like that are stealing oxygen from the rest of us.

 

[glantone]

I didn’t say they weren’t a terrorist organisation I said they weren’t an Islamic terrorist organisation (like ISIS).

Their aims are not religious, wiping out the non believing infidels, they are a terrorist organisation seeking statehood and the return of Palestine to Palestinians.

This has nothing to do with a holy war, like ISIS wages. Don’t paint it as something it is not.

My bad. I’m getting my Islamic psychopathic murderers of innocent children, women and men of many different nationalities all mixed up.

 

[DavidSSS]

As bad as Israel has been to the Palestinians Israel does not focus on and celebrate murdering innocent Palestinian women and children to meet their political aims. So I side with them.

On 13 October the Israel Military ordered Palestinians living in Gaza to move South, to move beyond Wadi Gaza.

There are a lot of Palestinians moving South as the Israel Military ordered, and they have been bombed by the Israel Military. Trucks carrying families fleeing South, as instructed by the Israel Military, have been bombed by the Israel Military, killing the families fleeing.

Still side with them?

DS

 

[glantone]

The provisional IRA didn’t lay down their arms in exchange for nothing. It was a 2 way street. It involved a lot of good faith negotiations from all sides

The laying down of arms and the acceptance that the state of Israel has a right to exist happened in 1993 when the PLO was the dominant force in Palestine. All Israel had to do was 2 things , stop building settlements and accept Palestinian access to west Jerusalem. They did neither. Hamas gave them an excuse but the PLO could not control Hamas, even though they were a fringe group then.

Israel may well obliterate Gaza but they can’t kill 2 million people.

I agree with all that.

But regarding your last line: why would Israel want to kill Gaza's 2 million Palestinians? Or as Ian chimed in the same vein the 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank?

 

[glantone]

On 13 October the Israel Military ordered Palestinians living in Gaza to move South, to move beyond Wadi Gaza.

There are a lot of Palestinians moving South as the Israel Military ordered, and they have been bombed by the Israel Military. Trucks carrying families fleeing South, as instructed by the Israel Military, have been bombed by the Israel Military, killing the families fleeing.

Still side with them?

DS

That's shocking David. A war crime. Not that I don't believe you but as you've presented it can you provide a source please just so I can get the full context and I'll get back to you.
I expect a never ending litany of horror stories and heart break to come.

 

[waiting]

I found this x Twitter thread from a human rights lawyer quite interesting on the legality under international law of what has happened and is happening now.

https://x.com/profsarahj/status/1710757147674558617?s=42&t=gY4YhRzn7NxB8b9YJ0kA0w

Thanks for posting that Sin.

 

[DavidSSS]

That's shocking David. A war crime. Not that I don't believe you but as you've presented it can you provide a source please just so I can get the full context and I'll get back to you.
I expect a never ending litany of horror stories and heart break to come.

Washington Post do?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...as-palestine/#link-T3BKXIWNRBENPKPR7TFN5BK6ME

A graphic video verified by The Washington Post showed the aftermath of a deadly strike along Gaza’s main highway Friday, part of a wave of Israeli attacks that killed dozens and injured more than 200 people fleeing northern Gaza, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza.
The video, recorded along Salah Al-Deen road, shows bodies, including several young children, strewn along the road as black smoke rises from vehicles engulfed in flames. On the north-facing side of the road, bodies are laid out amid personal belongings, including a bicycle, on flatbed trailers attached to a truck.
The video was first geolocated by open-source researchers Chris Osieck and Gabòr Friesen and confirmed by The Post.

DS

 

[Freezer]

Israel may well obliterate Gaza but they can’t kill 2 million people.

Nor the other 3 million in the West Bank either.

Unfortunately Hamas may have given them an excuse to do their best.

Hamas are a bit like the smartarse mate of a younger brother who keeps throwing stones at the older brother. Eventually the older brother will smash the younger brother and his mate.

 

[Sintiger]

My bad. I’m getting my Islamic psychopathic murderers of innocent children, women and men of many different nationalities all mixed up.

You seem unable to grasp the difference between an Islamic terrorist organisation and a terrorist organisation who have members who are muslims.
This is not a holy war it is about statehood. You talked about conflating issues, that is exactly what you are doing.
Why it matters is that you are putting it in the same basket as ISIS, 9/11, Bali bombing and that demeans the millions of Palestinians struggling for statehood who are not Hamas.

 

[Sintiger]

I agree with all that.

But regarding your last line: why would Israel want to kill Gaza's 2 million Palestinians? Or as Ian chimed in the same vein the 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank?

My only point was that the struggle for Palestinian statehood will not go away by Israel bombing the *smile* out of Gaza. There will remain millions of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank as well as diaspora who will continue.

 

[Sintiger]

On 13 October the Israel Military ordered Palestinians living in Gaza to move South, to move beyond Wadi Gaza.

There are a lot of Palestinians moving South as the Israel Military ordered, and they have been bombed by the Israel Military. Trucks carrying families fleeing South, as instructed by the Israel Military, have been bombed by the Israel Military, killing the families fleeing.

Still side with them?

DS

We are not seeing a proportional response now.

The bombing of hospitals which has been verified by MSF !!

 

[Nico]

We are not seeing a proportional response now.

The bombing of hospitals which has been verified by MSF !!

Disgusting!

They are also targeting ambulances and bombing the 2 "safe" routes as designated by the IDF out of Northern Gaza to the South.

Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’

Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army

www.theguardian.com

My colleague and friend Khaled is stuck in Northern Gaza with his mother and sister. They either flee and risk attack, or stay put and face the IDF when they inevitably invade. What a horrible conundrum!

I heard from him last night. His family has decided to stay put and whatever happens when the IDF arrive, happens. No civilian should be forced into a decision like this.

I have a question for Western leaders. Given Israel are committing multiple war crimes, at what point do they renounce their support? What kind of "incident" would warrant them to say "FFS, they've crossed the line, they're on their own now"? Would the obliteration of all Gaza citizens and the annexure of Gaza do it? I think I know the answer.

 

[glantone]

David, yes I still side with Israel. You know if Hamas hadn’t returned us to the middle ages last weekend every single human being that has been raped or murdered or orphaned would be alive today going about their usual business. But that statement just invites a history lesson so….

Sinners, when a group of terrorists are exclaiming God is great as they rape and murder and abduct and torture and parade innocent civilians and whose Charter focuses on destroying Israel killing all jews and setting up an Islamic state in Palestine then I am prone to think of them as Islamic terrorists.

One of the Thai survivors who made it home tells of how they were calling out ‘Hello Thailand’ in an effort to lure out any Thais still alive who were in hiding in a particular building. The Thai who did come out was shot, another thai and his wife taken away. Nothing in this post that I’ve just typed sounds like fighting for statehood.

As I said earlier there will now be a litany of atrocities orchestrated by Israel. This morning I got sucked into reading heart wrenching stories of orphaned Palestinian children. They have been left living all alone in hell basically.

Given the gruesome nature of this topic and the clear stances we have all taken I sense this thread for me can only spiral south into vacuous land like the Indigenous vote thread. I also find the topic too disturbing to talk about like this anyway.

For an articulate view which I could never offer here’s Coleman Hughes, part 1 and 2.

A Nuanced View On Israel and Palestine with Andrew Gold - YouTube

The Far Left's INSANE Celebration of Israel Massacre - YouTube

And if anyone missed the 14 minute clip of Sam Harris’ take here it is.

The Sin of Moral Equivalence (Episode #338) - YouTube

Peace & Love

 

[MD Jazz]

David, yes I still side with Israel. You know if Hamas hadn’t returned us to the middle ages last weekend every single human being that has been raped or murdered or orphaned would be alive today going about their usual business. But that statement just invites a history lesson so….

Sinners, when a group of terrorists are exclaiming God is great as they rape and murder and abduct and torture and parade innocent civilians and whose Charter focuses on destroying Israel killing all jews and setting up an Islamic state in Palestine then I am prone to think of them as Islamic terrorists.

One of the Thai survivors who made it home tells of how they were calling out ‘Hello Thailand’ in an effort to lure out any Thais still alive who were in hiding in a particular building. The Thai who did come out was shot, another thai and his wife taken away. Nothing in this post that I’ve just typed sounds like fighting for statehood.

As I said earlier there will now be a litany of atrocities orchestrated by Israel. This morning I got sucked into reading heart wrenching stories of orphaned Palestinian children. They have been left living all alone in hell basically.

Given the gruesome nature of this topic and the clear stances we have all taken I sense this thread for me can only spiral south into vacuous land like the Indigenous vote thread. I also find the topic too disturbing to talk about like this anyway.

For an articulate view which I could never offer here’s Coleman Hughes, part 1 and 2.

A Nuanced View On Israel and Palestine with Andrew Gold - YouTube

The Far Left's INSANE Celebration of Israel Massacre - YouTube

And if anyone missed the 14 minute clip of Sam Harris’ take here it is.

The Sin of Moral Equivalence (Episode #338) - YouTube

Peace & Love

Yes, religion is a major part IMO too. This is not just about land/territory/holy land. Islam (or their version of it) informs their behaviour.

And yep, Israel is going to/has already committed war crimes in their response. Who will hold them accountable?

 

[MD Jazz]

I like these thoughts from Sam Harris.

My argument is that no group of people, and certainly no society, has ever suffered because everyone became too willing to hear arguments and data and got too interested in other people’s points of view. The zero-sum contest is between believing things for good reasons and believing things for bad reasons, you know? And it just so happens that science, 99 percent of the time, is on the right side of that cut. And religion more or less 99 percent of the time is on the wrong side.

There’s been this expectation, and it is a reasonable one, that as we come to understand more and more about the world, the mandates and authority of religion are going to be steadily eroded. You can easily list things for which there once a religious answer for which there is now is a scientific answer and the religious answer is now clearly bogus. What you can’t list are the things for which there was once a scientific answer for which now the best answer is religious. If you care about your kids being healthy, what you want are real medical facts to deal with disease and infirmity and birth defects. You don’t want amulets, you don’t want exorcisms. Almost everywhere in the developed world, if you wake up and your kid is running a high fever or having a seizure, taking him to a religious authority for treatment is synonymous with being a bad parent.