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Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
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Dead right. Imagine if Australia bordered a country whose driving objective above all else was to murder everyone of us. Hamas.
By the way, can anyone post some headlines from a major news outlet or government of any Muslim majority country in the world articulating their absolute total disgust in the open slaughter of innocent children, women and men in Israel during the first 2 days of this outrage?
I may have missed it.
So what is it you disagree with me Nico because I disagree with Sinners?
Btw, I loved your previous post about your colleague in Gaza. And I saw a heart breaking video of a young Palestinian Australian student in Gaza yesterday who brought me to tears. Her vulnerability and her reality was devastating. What a terrible terrible world.
OK. I'll try to make it real simple for you.
Why did Hamas murder innocent Jewish, Canadians, Thai, French, German, Austrian, Philippianos, Nepalese, Austrian, Italian, Cambodian, Chinese, Paraguans, Brazilian, Chinese, Mexicans, Irish, Tanzanians children, women and men?
OK, easy question for you. Why did Thai people get slaughtered?
And how does that improve the lives of people living in Gaza?
I can't make those questions any shorter or clearer or easy for you to respond to.
Hamas committed a terrorist act, they weren't targeting specific people, they were targetting Israel and anyone who happened to be around, I don't think they asked anyone's nationality. Hamas' tactics are not even very smart even if you don't care who gets killed, which Hamas clearly do not. Terrorist acts are perpetrated by groups who don't hold any power, groups who are desperate. The point is to ask why groups like Hamas continue to attract any support and have any members - I think the hopelessness of those living in Gaza has a lot to do with this, some will take the option to join a group like Hamas and they only need a small minority to do so.
Let me make it simple for you:
Why has the last 16 years of bombing Gaza, the killing of thousands of civilians (likely some from other countries) and keeping the population in an open air prison not led to the same levels of condemnation as Hamas' incursion into Israel?
How does bombing Gaza City back to the stone age help solve the problem?
What do you suggest the Palestinians do? Israel has occupied their territories, continually expands into the West Bank and Gaza with more settlements, puts crippling embargoes on Gaza, is completely unwilling to countenance a state for Palestinians except for a Bantustan. What Hamas did is abhorrent, it will do the Palestinian cause no good, but what will? Do you expect the Palestinians to just accept occupation and continual repression?
DS
Let me make it simple for you:
Why has the last 16 years of bombing Gaza, the killing of thousands of civilians (likely some from other countries) and keeping the population in an open air prison not led to the same levels of condemnation as Hamas' incursion into Israel?
How does bombing Gaza City back to the stone age help solve the problem?
What do you suggest the Palestinians do? Israel has occupied their territories, continually expands into the West Bank and Gaza with more settlements, puts crippling embargoes on Gaza, is completely unwilling to countenance a state for Palestinians except for a Bantustan. What Hamas did is abhorrent, it will do the Palestinian cause no good, but what will? Do you expect the Palestinians to just accept occupation and continual repression?
DS
You seem to think that there are people on here defending the actions of Hamas last weekend. There aren’t
To answer your 3 questions
1. There is no justification for that. It is murder
2. Same answer
3. It doesn’t, in fact it will lead to the deaths of many Palestinians in Gaza
However none of the above changes what has happened in the last 75 years and my opinions on that. Hamas has just immeasurably harmed the Palestinian cause.
You seem to have turned this into an Islamic terrorism thing. It is not, the attack was not religious it was about statehood. (please do not turn that statement into some inference that I am defending the attack) . In fact Israel’s attitude towards Gaza and the West Bank is the religious part of the dispute, they believe it is theirs because it is part of the promised land. It’s in the Old Testament.
Palestinians are overwhelmingly Muslim but religion is not the nature of their grievance with Israel. If you go to a Muslim country you will find a lot of support for the Palestinian cause but I haven’t trawled their newspapers over the last week. The view of muslims I have spoken to over the years is that the “west” blindly supports whatever Israel does in the suppression of the Palestinian people because so many have Judeo-Christian roots and because of the Jewish political power especially in the US.
1. Who said I have to pick a side? I am on the side of innocent people whether they be Israeli, Palestinian or any other nationality. Abhoring what was done by Hamas does not change the rights and wrongs of the basis of their grievance.
2. googling something and posting the first thing that you see is cherry picking. I suggest you do some serious research into the land where the settlements are and look at some maps of where they now are and who had sovereignty over that land pre 1967. Also note UN resolutions re the illegality of those settlements and that a commitment was made to stop them by Prime Minister Rabin in the 1993 Oslo accords.
3. The historical equivalent for your eastern suburbs block is not indigenous land rights. It is the international pronouncement that a state would be formed in the area you live in. You are evicted and sent elsewhere in Victoria, you even still have the keys to your house. Where you now live is blockaded and the new state occupying your property controls your power and your water supply. This is what happened to Palestinians since the late 1940s.
4. You seem to not understand that Gaza and the West Bank are the current Palestine. They are both essentially under Israeli military control and are known as the Palestinian occupied territories. They have different governments but they have the same Palestinian statehood. I am not conflating issues because they are both parts of a current Palestinian state.
5. I hate violence of any sort but to answer your question about pacifism the fact is we don’t know. What we do know is that extreme violence does not solve problems. Hamas’ violence will make things worse for Palestinians and Israel’s response with extreme violence will do the same. The Irish troubles were not solved until they laid down arms and stopped fighting as an example and the fact is that there was a settlement 30 years ago in the two state solution but the extremists have won for the moment.
6. I can’t understand the last point about Hamas and Palestinians. Hamas is the organisation that currently governs Gaza and is Palestinian. The members are almost certainly Islamic but they are not an Islamic terrorist organisation (like ISIS) they are fighting for statehood
You can ask me what does it take for me to take sides but this is not a game of football. It is not about sides
I am for the rights of the Palestinian people to their own state in the form of the 2 state solution. I am for the end of the siege of Gaza and the end of Israeli occupation and control of Gaza and the West Bank. I am for the right of Israel to exist. I do not believe those rights in any way justify the murder of Israeli citizens as occurred last weekend which I consider nothing less than murder.
Well said Sin. I think those who are saying "pick a side" are simplifying an issue that is way more complicated than it actually is.
I haven't seen anyone on this board back what Hamas did this week. In fact the opposite, most have condemned it whilst still acknowledging the difficult position that most Palestinians find themselves in. Most don't want a war with Israel (if it went to a full blown war, then Palestine would cease to exist I would expect, its the epitome of the David vs Goliath battle).
I said it in an earlier post, there are no winners in this current conflict, only losers. Both sides have bad guys in charge of them. Israel continue to flout International law in terms of taking back land that has been recognised as Palestinian land, Hamas are bad guys in that they "act" like a political party in order to be elected to governmental positions, but then they show they are a terrorist organisation like they did this week. Had they attacked govt or army positions of Israel, the stance from many might be different, but the barbaric way that they attacked Israeli citizens is no political act, it was nothing less than murder, mass murder at that. How the hell do they expect to garner any International support, by decapitating babies, murdering old people and the like.
I agree with your comments around Ireland. Only when Sinn Fein realised that they were the small under armed faction in the conflict, did they move to go down the political route, and now Sinn Fein is the largest elected political party in Northern Ireland. They dropped their focus on uniting Ireland (as it was never going to happen) and they pushed towards peaceful resolution after the Good Friday Agreement and moved towards driving political outcomes that would move their people forward.
Some Palestinians have this viewpoint now, Fatah took this forward off the back of Yasser Arafat and now Mahammed Abbas, but even with this approach, Israel continue to take land in the West Bank. So Israel wanted a peaceful conclusion to this, but in many cases are still the aggressor in the conflict. I'm not sure whether the Palestinian Authority can gain full control of at least the West Bank, they need to to feel completely in control of their destiny, but despite all of that, and supporting a self controlled Palestinian state, it does not justify anything that happened from Hamas this week.
Sinners/David
Thanks for the history lesson. I am well aware of how criminal Israel has been in its relations with Palestinians and the theft of Palestinian land over the decades. I have always considered the Palestinians to be victims of religious extremism both externally from the Jewish state and internally from Islamic extremists.
And as absurd as creating a country based on holy scriptures is the state of Israel does not abduct innocent Palestinians including babies to be used as hostages to meet their political aims. So I side with them.
As bad as Israel has been to the Palestinians Israel does not focus on and celebrate murdering innocent Palestinian women and children to meet their political aims. So I side with them. I thought the Sam Harris link was pretty clear on taking sides.
If Hamas’ charter wasn’t death to Israel and if Hamas stopped implementing it by firing missiles into Israel Gaza wouldn’t be the hell hole it has been and continues to be. If instead Hamas focused on flourishing with Israel in order to ensure Gazans enjoy a quality of life they deserve I would support Hamas. But of course the 'if' argument becomes circular and endlessly unproductive because both sides are transgressors.
In war most people side with one or the other based on some principle. Supporting all people and peace is so trite so obvious it goes without saying.
Thanks for the history lesson. I am well aware of how criminal Israel has been in its relations with Palestinians and the theft of Palestinian land over the decades. I have always considered the Palestinians to be victims of religious extremism both externally from the Jewish state and internally from Islamic extremists.
And as absurd as creating a country based on holy scriptures is the state of Israel does not abduct innocent Palestinians including babies to be used as hostages to meet their political aims. So I side with them.
As bad as Israel has been to the Palestinians Israel does not focus on and celebrate murdering innocent Palestinian women and children to meet their political aims. So I side with them. I thought the Sam Harris link was pretty clear on taking sides.
If Hamas’ charter wasn’t death to Israel and if Hamas stopped implementing it by firing missiles into Israel Gaza wouldn’t be the hell hole it has been and continues to be. If instead Hamas focused on flourishing with Israel in order to ensure Gazans enjoy a quality of life they deserve I would support Hamas. But of course the 'if' argument becomes circular and endlessly unproductive because both sides are transgressors.
In war most people side with one or the other based on some principle. Supporting all people and peace is so trite so obvious it goes without saying.
Sinners, just noticed this.
You say 'I can’t understand the last point about Hamas and Palestinians. Hamas is the organisation that currently governs Gaza and is Palestinian. The members are almost certainly Islamic but they are not an Islamic terrorist organisation (like ISIS) they are fighting for statehood'
After the events of Saturday I really don't know how you can not see Hamas as a terrorist organization. Any government of a state whose charter openly focuses on the destruction of another state and all its people and attempts to implement it is a terrorist organization. That seems to be the consensus of the european union, our government and most of the civilized world.
You say 'I can’t understand the last point about Hamas and Palestinians. Hamas is the organisation that currently governs Gaza and is Palestinian. The members are almost certainly Islamic but they are not an Islamic terrorist organisation (like ISIS) they are fighting for statehood'
After the events of Saturday I really don't know how you can not see Hamas as a terrorist organization. Any government of a state whose charter openly focuses on the destruction of another state and all its people and attempts to implement it is a terrorist organization. That seems to be the consensus of the european union, our government and most of the civilized world.
So whats your view on Israel and the West Bank. I think most would agree that Hamas are in no ways adding towards peace in the region, but Israel continues to occupy the West Bank, they continue to control more than 50% of the territory of the West Bank, with Israelis living on occupied lands that have been decreed to be Palestinian lands. Yet despite this, the Palestinian Authority that governs the West Bank have recognised Israel and they are attempting to live peacefully as best as they can, but the land grabs continue.
I don't side with Hamas at all, but Israel is an aggressor in this conflict within the wider Palestinian conflict.
Hamas are a terrible organisation and there is no justification for what they have done, and unfortunately the people of Gaza will unfortunately pay for this attack by Hamas.
But you say that IF Hamas charter wasn't death to Israel (the PA's isn't) and if Hamas stopped firing missiles into Israel (the PA don't) then Gaza won't be the hell hole that it is, but the West Bank is still exactly that despite doing what you are suggesting.
As I've said, both sides are bad guys and neither side are winners in this conflict, as there is no common ground. Israel wants the land the Palestinians occupy. The PA are trying to negotiate this but Israel continue to expand on it. Hamas have gone the other way. Neither way is for the betterment of the people of Israel of Palestine.
On Ireland. If we're going to somehow use the IRA analogy then it would follow that Hamas lay down its arms against the Jewish occupier just as PIRA laid down its arms against the English occupier.
The Provisionals realized the world had moved on and being linked to other terror groups was no longer acceptable especially to their American backers. They also understood that Catholics would not be a minority in the north in the near future.
For Hamas to do this they would have to rewrite their charter removing all their pathological religious hate for Israel and its people.
The Provisionals realized the world had moved on and being linked to other terror groups was no longer acceptable especially to their American backers. They also understood that Catholics would not be a minority in the north in the near future.
For Hamas to do this they would have to rewrite their charter removing all their pathological religious hate for Israel and its people.
Sin expressed his view very eloquently, far better than I could, and I agree with him.
You seem dumbfounded that he can't pick a side. Well I can't either.
Your post about the dismantling the settlements in Gaza in 2005 WAS cherry picking. A lot has changed since then under RWNJ Netanyahu. Maybe you could give an update about Israeli settlements in the West Bank which are actively encouraged by Netanyahu? How would you feel, and how would you react if your neighbour decided to construct a dwelling in your front and back yard and then live there?
Listen, Hamas are murdering terrorists, plain and simple. No argument about that.
The Palestinians are stateless, without government (Hamas filled the void unfortunately), no economy, no rights, and their land is continually being settled by the Israelis. They can't move, they can't re-locate, they are caged like rats. They are continually called "animals" by the Israeli people and government. Israeli settlers are taking Palestinian homes by force in the West Bank. They go to Palestinian homes in the middle of the night, wake up all residents (men, women, children) and take their photo to add to their database. There is very sophisicated security technology employed at checkpoints and if a camera detects a Palestinian from their database, they are instantly and automatically shot 24/7 without the presence of a human. All in Palestinian territory.
The following is from Israeli lawmaker Zvika Fogel in December last year:
"If it is one Israeli mother crying, or a thousand Palestinian mothers crying, then a thousand Palestinian mothers will cry".
Now if I was a Palestinian, in their land, and I was treated like this...well I don't know what I would do. Being totally frustrated an without hope is an understatement.
If I came to your home glantone and started to poke you in your breast bone, sooner or later you are going to take a swing at me.
So no, I can't take a side.
Thanks for your concern regarding Khaled. I didn't hear from him for 48 hours and feared the worst. I thankfully received a message from him last night. This was his message:
"Israel send messages to ppl to leave Gaza. We are not sure where to go!".
After the elation that he is still alive wore off, I started sobbing uncontrollably given the hopelessness of his plight and that of his elderly mother and sister.
Totally agree with this. I detest what the Israeli gov is doing there. It fuels nothing but hate.
I just don't see the above criminal behaviour perpetrated by the state of Israel as an acceptable explanation for what happened to all those innocent women and children and young people.
I agree and I don't think Hamas really realise what they've done. We all saw what the US did in retaliation for 9/11, they will support Israel in whatever retaliation they want for this attack and it will be at a massive loss to the people of Gaza. They have already asked 1.1m people to move out of Northern Gaza, because they are going for a full fledged invasion and personally I don't see this stopping if the hostages are released. They have the backing of the US to destroy Hamas and Netanyahu has already stated that, he said something along the lines of "if you are Hamas, you are a deadman".
The issue for the rest of the world, is what does Iran and their other proxies do when this invasion of Gaza begins.
Got me a feeling that Hamas have played a massive all in punt with this attack on Israel.
Their massive sneak attack n slaughter has shocked and stunned the divided n self hamstrung Western nations and obviously outraged the Israelis. So now they're launching a counter offensive to likely invade the Gaza strip to try and annihilate the Hamas operatives who hide behind the Palestinian innocents.
An action that will completely re unite all the Arabic nations back against the Israelis, wiping out any deals n negotiations they've built up in recent years. While also enraging all the Arabic enclaves spread throughout the Western nations.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if most of the senior operatives n controllers of Hamas are already safely tucked away outside of Palestine and working flat out with the likes of Iran, Afghanistan, Hezbollah, Isis etc to keep the tide of hatred building against an enraged Israel that have been sucked into actions they likely can't pull back from and probably won't be able to ultimately reconcile or justify to the rest of the world.
Most of the Western nations are conflicted in that they have multi cultural pockets of population from all countries around the globe, so they will be desperately trying to appease and pacify everyone while mouthing banal platitudes. These countries to a large degree also have attention spans that last about as long as the next exciting Tic Toc video, they have virtually no understanding of hatreds that go back hundreds and thousands of years.
Their massive sneak attack n slaughter has shocked and stunned the divided n self hamstrung Western nations and obviously outraged the Israelis. So now they're launching a counter offensive to likely invade the Gaza strip to try and annihilate the Hamas operatives who hide behind the Palestinian innocents.
An action that will completely re unite all the Arabic nations back against the Israelis, wiping out any deals n negotiations they've built up in recent years. While also enraging all the Arabic enclaves spread throughout the Western nations.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if most of the senior operatives n controllers of Hamas are already safely tucked away outside of Palestine and working flat out with the likes of Iran, Afghanistan, Hezbollah, Isis etc to keep the tide of hatred building against an enraged Israel that have been sucked into actions they likely can't pull back from and probably won't be able to ultimately reconcile or justify to the rest of the world.
Most of the Western nations are conflicted in that they have multi cultural pockets of population from all countries around the globe, so they will be desperately trying to appease and pacify everyone while mouthing banal platitudes. These countries to a large degree also have attention spans that last about as long as the next exciting Tic Toc video, they have virtually no understanding of hatreds that go back hundreds and thousands of years.
I didn’t say they weren’t a terrorist organisation I said they weren’t an Islamic terrorist organisation (like ISIS).
Their aims are not religious, wiping out the non believing infidels, they are a terrorist organisation seeking statehood and the return of Palestine to Palestinians.
This has nothing to do with a holy war, like ISIS wages. Don’t paint it as something it is not.
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