Palestine and Israel

[Sintiger]

Spoils of war, Israel will control all of Gaza by the time this is finished.

This problem cannot and never will be solved by violence and war whether that be from Hamas or from Israel.
What Hamas has done is not defensible, murdering and kidnapping innocent people cannot solve this issue. I am not defending it, I don’t defend such acts of violence. I also can’t understand how they feel. My land has not been taken away from me, I am not under siege, I don’t have my water rationed and my power cut off.
The old PLO, now the Palestinian front, recognised Israel’s right to exist in 1993 which was a huge move for them, they committed to the 2 state solution. The PLO renounced violence and the PLO and Hamas are not the same thing. Israel had to stop building settlements as part of the bargain and they did not, in contravention of a settlement with Rabin’s signature on it.
Someone has to stop.
A full scale takeover of Gaza will escalate into war not just with Hamas but Hezbollah both backed by Iran. What further have the Palestinians in Gaza got to lose? 70% of them are already refugees from what is now Israel.
We have to stop taking sides and recognise that there are two sides. Unfortunately so many think that anyone who wants an equitable settlement is anti Israel and that being anti the Israeli state is being anti Jewish/Semitic. Neither is true.

 

[deedee]

This problem cannot and never will be solved by violence and war whether that be from Hamas or from Israel.
What Hamas has done is not defensible, murdering and kidnapping innocent people cannot solve this issue. I am not defending it, I don’t defend such acts of violence. I also can’t understand how they feel. My land has not been taken away from me, I am not under siege, I don’t have my water rationed and my power cut off.
The old PLO, now the Palestinian front, recognised Israel’s right to exist in 1993 which was a huge move for them, they committed to the 2 state solution. The PLO renounced violence and the PLO and Hamas are not the same thing. Israel had to stop building settlements as part of the bargain and they did not, in contravention of a settlement with Rabin’s signature on it.
Someone has to stop.
A full scale takeover of Gaza will escalate into war not just with Hamas but Hezbollah both backed by Iran. What further have the Palestinians in Gaza got to lose? 70% of them are already refugees from what is now Israel.
We have to stop taking sides and recognise that there are two sides. Unfortunately so many think that anyone who wants an equitable settlement is anti Israel and that being anti the Israeli state is being anti Jewish/Semitic. Neither is true.

What I am saying is taking land from the defeated side is the spoils of war, and I don't think Israel will stop until the place is flattened, look at 2014, Hamas killed 3 teenagers, Israel attacked for 50 days killing over 2000 and injuring over 10,000 and kept part of the land it cleared. That was a huge pay back for three deaths, so I have no doubt at all how this plays out from here.

 

[Sintiger]

What I am saying is taking land from the defeated side is the spoils of war, and I don't think Israel will stop until the place is flattened, look at 2014, Hamas killed 3 teenagers, Israel attacked for 50 days killing over 2000 and injuring over 10,000 and kept part of the land it cleared. That was a huge pay back for three deaths, so I have no doubt at all how this plays out from here.

They may well do that but 2 million people live there, are they going to eliminate all of them?
If they do that, they will be attacked by Hezbollah from Lebanon. Then it is full scale war.
Of course they believe it is theirs anyway, given to them by god as part of the promised land.

 

[Legends of 2017]

Interesting. Just saw a report that said that Egypt warned Israel weeks ago that this or similar was about to go down and that Netanyahu was indifferent to the reports

 

[glantone]

Reckon Gaza has no future as any kind of homeland for Palestinians after this.
The BBC reported today that polling shortly before this slaughter of jews showed that around about 50% or so of those polled in Gaza openly supported Hamas.
Imagine if the military supremacy was reversed. Israel and all her children would have been wiped off planet earth decades ago without a 2nd thought.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Almost twenty years ago Tom Waits released Orphans, Brawlers, Bawlers and Bastards. In it was the song a Road to Peace, great to see that nothing's improved or changed over there except to turn heavily for the worst.
Bunch of mad *smile* the lot of them. Just more of the same old human Alpha predator at it's finest.

 

[Nico]

My web developer Khaled has been working for me for 5 years. He lives in Gaza with his elderly mother and sister.

Every morning I check my Slack channel to see if he's online. ie. is he still alive.

They fled from their apartment on the weekend to a location about 5kms away. They have now moved again to a supposed "safe part of Gaza" but he says a safe part doesn't exist.

No power whatsoever...he fortunately has access to a local generator. No tap water...he just told me trucks are selling water house by house, filling up water tanks but once that's gone, it's gone.

They are totally hemmed in, no where to go like caged rats. I can't comprehend what that would feel like. Bombs falling all around him.

He's such a trooper...doing some work for me today.

What an absolute sh!tshow!

 

[Panthera Tigris]

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/fears-of-allout-war-in-middle-east-as-israel-conflict-escalates/news-story/bead820c4bb7af584192e55a31894613

Hello $10 per litre petrol and extremely elevated energy prices of all forms if the conflict takes this kind of course. Think inflation is elevated post-COVID? Haven’t seen anything yet. Total economic meltdown if this happens, which potentially sparks all sorts of simmering conflicts around the globe.

Don’t rule out the Israelis lobbing nukes around the place if they felt helplessly surrounded too.

It’s why the US probably can’t stand back and not get involved if the conflict expands. They really can’t risk the Israelis turning it nuclear.

 

[Harry]

How and why Israel helped create Hamas? | The Express Tribune

Not many people are aware of the fact that it was Israel which had helped the creation of Hamas as a counter to PLO

tribune.com.pk

 

[Ian4]

Israel is a terrorist state. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. And the biggest losers are the Palestinian people.

Dutton came out yesterday and said all Palestinian protesters should be deported. Yet he says nothing about neo nazis marching for the No side in the referendum. opportunist scumbag.

 

[Brodders17]

Israel is a terrorist state. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. And the biggest losers are the Palestinian people.

Dutton came out yesterday and said all Palestinian protesters should be deported. Yet he says nothing about neo nazis marching for the No side in the referendum. opportunist scumbag.

Yep, ASIO were pretty scathing of his response. Trying to wedge Labor, but at the same time just contributing to the tension between the opposing sides in Australia. Not to blur lines too much- but it the same play book he is following for the referendum. Politics above outcomes.

 

[Tigers of Old]

I just hope that this long conflict doesn't start to impact in Australia. Police talking re a lot of concern re the expected rallies in Sydney this weekend.

 

[Harry]

The world political landscape and world order is shifting as countries such as Russia, China, Iran, and others unite against its common enemy the US who has it's finger in many pies. This may well encourage the Arab states to unite and test the waters against Israel.

 

[glantone]

....... We have to stop taking sides and recognise that there are two sides. Unfortunately so many think that anyone who wants an equitable settlement is anti Israel and that being anti the Israeli state is being anti Jewish/Semitic. Neither is true.

We have to stop taking sides ?
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From wiki:

Israeli disengagement from Gaza​

In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip.

The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset in February 2005 as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law.[1] It was implemented in August 2005 and completed in September 2005. The settlers who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the 15 August 2005 deadline were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[2] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by 12 September 2005.[3] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later. Eight thousand Jewish settlers from the 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip were relocated. The settlers received an average of more than US$200,000 in compensation per family.[4]

The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[6] Following the withdrawal, Israel continues to maintain direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, six of Gaza's seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[
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Hamas' charter is the destruction of Israel. That is the murder of all jews.
If you want to argue that fact go argue with Hamas because Hamas keep publicly stating it over and over again? Why is it in their charter in black and white? Why did they invade Israel murdering, raping, abducting every fcking living thing in its path regardless of ethnicity, nationality or species? Everything young, old or unarmed, all totally vulnerable mercilessly slaughtered. I'll tell you why - they are simply implementing the policy they have been espousing for decades.

And you dare suggest we have to stop taking sides? So tell me, what would it take for you to take a side?

Last night Sam Harris released 14 minutes of touching base with reality.

Sam Harris | #338 - The Sin of Moral Equivalence

Join neuroscientist, philosopher, and best-selling author Sam Harris as he explores some of the most pressing and controversial questions of our time.

www.samharris.org

 

[Sintiger]

We have to stop taking sides ?
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From wiki:

Israeli disengagement from Gaza​

In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip.

The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset in February 2005 as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law.[1] It was implemented in August 2005 and completed in September 2005. The settlers who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the 15 August 2005 deadline were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[2] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by 12 September 2005.[3] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later. Eight thousand Jewish settlers from the 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip were relocated. The settlers received an average of more than US$200,000 in compensation per family.[4]

The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[6] Following the withdrawal, Israel continues to maintain direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, six of Gaza's seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[
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Hamas' charter is the destruction of Israel. That is the murder of all jews.
If you want to argue that fact go argue with Hamas because Hamas keep publicly stating it over and over again? Why is it in their charter in black and white? Why did they invade Israel murdering, raping, abducting every fcking living thing in its path regardless of ethnicity, nationality or species? Everything young, old or unarmed, all totally vulnerable mercilessly slaughtered. I'll tell you why - they are simply implementing the policy they have been espousing for decades.

And you dare suggest we have to stop taking sides? So tell me, what would it take for you to take a side?

Last night Sam Harris released 14 minutes of touching base with reality.

Sam Harris | #338 - The Sin of Moral Equivalence

Join neuroscientist, philosopher, and best-selling author Sam Harris as he explores some of the most pressing and controversial questions of our time.

www.samharris.org

Cherry picking one episode of reducing settlements is not a unilateral dismantling of settlements as agreed to by Israel.
There are decades of expansion of them into land that was annexed from Palestine, much of it taken during wars and required to be handed back by UN resolutions. 70% of all Gazans are refugees from what is now Israel.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Hamas is not Palestine. It does not rule the West Bank and only has held power in Gaza since 2006. I am no fan of Hamas and if you read what I have written earlier you will know I abhor what they did. There is nothing that excuses it and I have never defended it.

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel but the government in the west bank ( the old PLO) does . However what is equally true is that the state of Israel believes that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are part of Israel and they have been slowly destroying the Palestinian societies that live there for many years. They believe it because it is part of the “promised Land” god gave them. What they have been doing to the Palestinians is disgusting, treating them like caged animals and slowly starving them of water and power.

I have family members who have worked in aid in Gaza, they have seen what has happened to them. They have lived and worked with everyday Palestinian Gazans who simply want to live in peace.

What is abhorrent now is that brutality is being met with brutality which is what war does to people. Hamas terrorists killed babies and children so now Palestinian babies and children are being killed.

What I mean by not taking sides is that if anyone thinks that Israel is blameless in what has happened over many years in Gaza and the West Bank then imo they are very wrong. That view does not in any way condone the attacks that were carried out by Hamas.

This will not be solved by Israel bombing Gaza into oblivion. Innocent people were killed in Israel and now innocent people are dying in Gaza.

Because Hamas committed acts of barbarism against Israelis coming to the conclusion that Palestinians are bad and Israelis are good is to me just wrong. Being against the Israeli siege of Gaza and the expansion of settlements that has been in place for many years and also being disgusted by what Hamas did is the way lots of people feel about this situation.

 

[DavidSSS]

Glantone, we can also quote the Likud Party's aim to have all of Gaza and the West Bank as part of Israel.

The reality is that there are 2 sides here. Dispossessed Palestinians and Jews who have experienced racism for too many generations to count.

Violence and uncritically backing one side or the other does nothing to solve the issue.

What is needed is serious intent to learn to live together from the extremist leaderships on both sides.

DS

 

[TigerMasochist]

What is needed is serious intent to learn to live together from the extremist leaderships on both sides.

DS

There's a reason why they're called extremists David and because they are extremists, there's not a chance in hell that they'll ever even consider learning to live together.
Some of these hatreds go back thousands of years and are renewed mindlessly generation after generation, only obliteration will resolve their hatred of one another.

 

[glantone]

Cherry picking one episode of reducing settlements is not a unilateral dismantling of settlements as agreed to by Israel.
There are decades of expansion of them into land that was annexed from Palestine, much of it taken during wars and required to be handed back by UN resolutions. 70% of all Gazans are refugees from what is now Israel.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Hamas is not Palestine. It does not rule the West Bank and only has held power in Gaza since 2006. I am no fan of Hamas and if you read what I have written earlier you will know I abhor what they did. There is nothing that excuses it and I have never defended it.

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel but the government in the west bank ( the old PLO) does . However what is equally true is that the state of Israel believes that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are part of Israel and they have been slowly destroying the Palestinian societies that live there for many years. They believe it because it is part of the “promised Land” god gave them. What they have been doing to the Palestinians is disgusting, treating them like caged animals and slowly starving them of water and power.

I have family members who have worked in aid in Gaza, they have seen what has happened to them. They have lived and worked with everyday Palestinian Gazans who simply want to live in peace.

What is abhorrent now is that brutality is being met with brutality w
You say ‘Because Hamas committed acts of barbarism against Israelis coming to the conclusion that Palestinians are bad and Israelis are good is to me

ok. So you can't take sides. Fair enough.

You say I'm cherry picking one episode of reducing settlements?
I simply keyed in Gaza settlements. And what I posted was the very first paragraph in Wiki. Next to no effort. That aint cherry picking. That is just the obvious.

70% per cent of Gazans are refugees from what is now Israel.
OK so for the sake of sincerity and consistency and intellectual honesty I take it you're posting from outside Australia unless you're indigenous, right? Historically I’m pretty sure the small block I currently own in the eastern suburbs was under the watch of of black men & women for thousands of years and I'm guessing that's the truth for the majority of people on this land. Are we (non indigenous) bad for being here? Where do you suggest we go?

Why are you talking about the West Bank? What has Hamas in Gaza slaughtering and raping innocent men, women and children of all nationalities in Israel got to do with the West Bank? Why are you conflating issues? There is simply NO defence historical or contemporary of what Hamas did so why are you invoking the concept of 'there are 2 sides to this story'?

You say what is abhorrent is violence being met with violence. So tell me, how does pacifism overcome those who 'pursue and celebrate the most inhumane ultra violence imaginable against children and women? Are you suggesting the slaughter of women and children is not bad enough to warrant an all out ultra violent response?

Where or when did I even mention the word ‘Palestinian’? Why are you misrepresenting my post? I have only talked about Hamas - those Islamic barbaric *smile*.

So again I ask you ‘what does it take for you to take a side?’

 

[glantone]

Glantone, we can also quote the Likud Party's aim to have all of Gaza and the West Bank as part of Israel.

The reality is that there are 2 sides here. Dispossessed Palestinians and Jews who have experienced racism for too many generations to count.

Violence and uncritically backing one side or the other does nothing to solve the issue.

What is needed is serious intent to learn to live together from the extremist leaderships on both sides.

DS

Stating the absolute obvious David but how about just 100% condemning without riders the slaughter of Jewish, Canadians, Thai, French, German, Austrian, Philippianos, Nepalese, Austrian, Italian, Cambodian, Chinese, Paraguans, Brazilian, Chinese, Mexicans, Irish, Tanzanians in the name of ..... Allah, Mohammad or Palestine. Can we at least just try to be intellectually honest for just one solitary moment?
If not ok. then just explain to me why did all those clearly non jewish people get slaughtered?

 

[glantone]

There's a reason why they're called extremists David and because they are extremists, there's not a chance in hell that they'll ever even consider learning to live together........

D
Imagine having a neighbouring country whose primary goal in life as taught from primary school through to university is the total destruction of you and your people.