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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
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antman said:
Had the great pleasure of literally running into Moshe Dayan in high school, back in the early 70s.
As he was visiting our school, a classmate and I decided to get around the back steps to find a better place to view him.
As we ran up the back steps, we ran straight into Dayan, our school principal, and the whole entourage.
Every one was in a state of shock.
In utter awe, I stuck out my hand and said, "Welcome to Australia!"
He shook it!
antman said:
Had the great pleasure of literally running into Moshe Dayan in high school, back in the early 70s.
As he was visiting our school, a classmate and I decided to get around the back steps to find a better place to view him.
As we ran up the back steps, we ran straight into Dayan, our school principal, and the whole entourage.
Every one was in a state of shock.
In utter awe, I stuck out my hand and said, "Welcome to Australia!"
He shook it!
antman said:
Had the great pleasure of literally running into Moshe Dayan in high school, back in the early 70s.
As he was visiting our school, a classmate and I decided to get around the back steps to find a better place to view him.
As we ran up the back steps, we ran straight into Dayan, our school principal, and the whole entourage.
Every one was in a state of shock.
In utter awe, I stuck out my hand and said, "Welcome to Australia!"
He shook it!
Dayan was a short man in physical stature, barely taller than us in our early high school years.
I suppose that's the stature that you need to be for a tank commander, as he was.
He is listed in the Who's Who of Military Commanders.
I recall that he did much better as a military commander (1967) than he did as a Minister of Defence (1974).
Re: Israel's Massacre
There's a thread on the Race Religion Politics board but it hasn't been posted in for a while. There have been comments about it on other threads. Just did a search for Israel and there are 5 pages of references.
There's a thread on the Race Religion Politics board but it hasn't been posted in for a while. There have been comments about it on other threads. Just did a search for Israel and there are 5 pages of references.
Re: Israel's Massacre
I am baffled at as to what is going on over there. I dont know enough backround to go into this even though it has been happening for so long. I do know that Israel keep on increasing their take over of Palestenian territory by building new neighbourhoods and hamas keeps sending misiles into Israely territory. It is interesting to note that 43% of the Palestinian population is under 14 years of age.
Israel has got some very strong tenticles all over the world including Australia not to mention in the US. As I said i dont know enough about the conflict to offer up a deffinitive opinion but the Palestinian citizens and more importantly children are getting pummelled.
Maybe someone with a more intimint knowledge of the conflict could contribute more.
I am baffled at as to what is going on over there. I dont know enough backround to go into this even though it has been happening for so long. I do know that Israel keep on increasing their take over of Palestenian territory by building new neighbourhoods and hamas keeps sending misiles into Israely territory. It is interesting to note that 43% of the Palestinian population is under 14 years of age.
Israel has got some very strong tenticles all over the world including Australia not to mention in the US. As I said i dont know enough about the conflict to offer up a deffinitive opinion but the Palestinian citizens and more importantly children are getting pummelled.
Maybe someone with a more intimint knowledge of the conflict could contribute more.
Re: Israel's Massacre
Excellent video gsta!
Usually comes when governments struggle or fail to enfranchise all members within its society.
Sometimes it comes when two or more quite distinct groups, with different values and beliefs, are forced together within national boundaries.
Sometimes it comes from long running feuds, of one wrong done against the other, lasting generations.
Read a book about the happenings of Northern Ireland during the 70s and 80s.
It interviewed the brothers and sisters of some of its victims.
The common theme was that the victims and the families of victims had no where to go to find justice, they were totally without hope.
They recounted that taking justice into their own hands became their only hope.
Thirty or more years later, the interviewees were glad for Northern Ireland's peace, but did not regret their previous actions, thoughts and fears.
As for Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, the same mess has been existing for nearly 100 years.
(Note, I pre-date this to conflicts occurring during the British mandate.)
Israel has changed politically from the secular socialist state that was created in 1948.
But repeated wars with internal and external factors have changed it.
Since the 70s, Israel has successfully established lasting peaceful relationships with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
It has enfranchised many Arab groups, best of all the Druze.
It has failed to enfranchise these Palestinians.
But, the Palestinians are split into two groups - Fatah and Hamas.
Although recently cooperating, both have distinct and different views of possible outcomes.
Fatah (West Bank) appears to be looking towards peaceful cooperating solutions.
Hamas (Gaza-based) appears to be aimed in the opposite direction.
However, Hamas has dominance over Fatah.
Many aren't going to like what I say here, but my lesson from studying war is that you can not practically define the limits of war.
Sure, the Geneva Convention was created by the western powers to limit 'open' war, but these rules can't be applied to situations of 'guerilla' warfare.
As William Tecumseh Sherman alluded, during the US Civil War and later Indian wars that war is 'total' war and nothing less.
If you choose to go to war, it is 'total' war, no limits.
And that was the view of one of America's greatest generals about Americans fighting Americans.
In practice, during both Afghanistan and Iraq, the soldiers of western powers were caught breaking what are rules of war.
But what can you do when the other side fights without rules or with different rules to you?
To me, Gaza is a Hamas governed and controlled state.
If Hamas choose to initiate warlike proceedings by firing rockets into Israel, then why should they then feel that war should be limited to this action?
To me, war is fought until one side is so destroyed that it gives up the will to make war and accepts unconditional surrender.
But there have been exceptions.
Northern Ireland has now lost the will to fight and has found peace.
The ex-Yugoslavian states appear to have found peace, regardless of ethinicity and religion.
The Indian sections of the Punjab and Kashmir provinces seem quieter now than in the 50s, 60s & 70s, although the Pakistani side of the border is far less stable.
But a quick browse on Google reveals many local wars still being fought in the world up to July 19th 2014, mainly in Africa, Asia and Europe. But also marks the Mexican US border as a warzone too.
http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1329446051 (Google Maps is a wonderful thing!)
For the current Israeli / Gaza conflict,
Much will depend on losing the will to make war.
As a starting point, and this is only in alphabetical order, Israelis and Palestinians have to stop hating each other, and begin to trust each other.
Northern Ireland is an amazing example to the world.
I post this absolutely certain that this post, and me, will be attacked again.
But, this is a forum of debate.
gsta12 said:
Excellent video gsta!
Usually comes when governments struggle or fail to enfranchise all members within its society.
Sometimes it comes when two or more quite distinct groups, with different values and beliefs, are forced together within national boundaries.
Sometimes it comes from long running feuds, of one wrong done against the other, lasting generations.
Read a book about the happenings of Northern Ireland during the 70s and 80s.
It interviewed the brothers and sisters of some of its victims.
The common theme was that the victims and the families of victims had no where to go to find justice, they were totally without hope.
They recounted that taking justice into their own hands became their only hope.
Thirty or more years later, the interviewees were glad for Northern Ireland's peace, but did not regret their previous actions, thoughts and fears.
As for Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, the same mess has been existing for nearly 100 years.
(Note, I pre-date this to conflicts occurring during the British mandate.)
Israel has changed politically from the secular socialist state that was created in 1948.
But repeated wars with internal and external factors have changed it.
Since the 70s, Israel has successfully established lasting peaceful relationships with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
It has enfranchised many Arab groups, best of all the Druze.
It has failed to enfranchise these Palestinians.
But, the Palestinians are split into two groups - Fatah and Hamas.
Although recently cooperating, both have distinct and different views of possible outcomes.
Fatah (West Bank) appears to be looking towards peaceful cooperating solutions.
Hamas (Gaza-based) appears to be aimed in the opposite direction.
However, Hamas has dominance over Fatah.
Many aren't going to like what I say here, but my lesson from studying war is that you can not practically define the limits of war.
Sure, the Geneva Convention was created by the western powers to limit 'open' war, but these rules can't be applied to situations of 'guerilla' warfare.
As William Tecumseh Sherman alluded, during the US Civil War and later Indian wars that war is 'total' war and nothing less.
If you choose to go to war, it is 'total' war, no limits.
And that was the view of one of America's greatest generals about Americans fighting Americans.
In practice, during both Afghanistan and Iraq, the soldiers of western powers were caught breaking what are rules of war.
But what can you do when the other side fights without rules or with different rules to you?
To me, Gaza is a Hamas governed and controlled state.
If Hamas choose to initiate warlike proceedings by firing rockets into Israel, then why should they then feel that war should be limited to this action?
To me, war is fought until one side is so destroyed that it gives up the will to make war and accepts unconditional surrender.
But there have been exceptions.
Northern Ireland has now lost the will to fight and has found peace.
The ex-Yugoslavian states appear to have found peace, regardless of ethinicity and religion.
The Indian sections of the Punjab and Kashmir provinces seem quieter now than in the 50s, 60s & 70s, although the Pakistani side of the border is far less stable.
But a quick browse on Google reveals many local wars still being fought in the world up to July 19th 2014, mainly in Africa, Asia and Europe. But also marks the Mexican US border as a warzone too.
http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1329446051 (Google Maps is a wonderful thing!)
For the current Israeli / Gaza conflict,
Much will depend on losing the will to make war.
As a starting point, and this is only in alphabetical order, Israelis and Palestinians have to stop hating each other, and begin to trust each other.
Northern Ireland is an amazing example to the world.
I post this absolutely certain that this post, and me, will be attacked again.
But, this is a forum of debate.
) Phantom. Thanks for your insight on your views of this war. It seems complex and apparently has been going on for 66 years on and off.
Re: Israel's Massacre
yeah, ive always thought that the rules of war was an oxymoron. Each year, when I cut my birthday cake, I wish that me or my family will never be caught up in a war. But im pretty sure, if some blokes came and bulldozed my house and orchard and bombed my kids, I'd dispense with my pacifistic ways and burn the rule book.
horrible situation and an unfathomable, complicit-by-silence, international response.
Phantom said:
yeah, ive always thought that the rules of war was an oxymoron. Each year, when I cut my birthday cake, I wish that me or my family will never be caught up in a war. But im pretty sure, if some blokes came and bulldozed my house and orchard and bombed my kids, I'd dispense with my pacifistic ways and burn the rule book.
horrible situation and an unfathomable, complicit-by-silence, international response.
Re: Israel's Massacre
Unfortunately, a lot of the truth is left out when most of the media reports on this issue (Another issue all together..). They fail to mention that Palestinians are occupied and have been occupied since 1948. You will just hear the usual Israeli rhetoric of the 'right to defend itself' and that 'Hamas hides behind civilians'.
I am always curious what Israel is defending itself from? Hamas is a resistant group.. they are resisting to being occupied and killed and treated like second class citizens for 66 years. Palestine doesn't even have an army. Who is going to defend these poor people? I don't condone any violence, but it is hard to imagine just what the Palestinians are going through. Since about 2000, a Palestinian CHILD has been killed by Israel about every 3 days. Not to mention they have been disallowed there basic human rights.
And on the propaganda line of Hamas hides behinds civilians; the 4 children playing on the beach last week who were TARGETED and killed by shelling from the Israeli Navy.. Was Hamas using them as 'human shields'? Thank God some international reporters who are staying at a nearby hotel were witness to this (and there is also cctv footage of the poor children running away from the first shelling). Had there not been anyone witness this, Israel would have denied all wrong doing... Even with all this evidence of such a horrific act, there only response was that the Israeli Navy thought it was 4 'terrorists' running away on the beach! This is the same Navy who is one of the most sophisticated in the world!
The above is just once incident.. there was a video a couple of days ago of International activists who were going through rubble for victims and survivors. One of them was filming, and you can see a sniper taker out one of the young civilians in the rubble..
Did any of this receive widespread media coverage in Australia? Did our leaders condemn any of these and all the other unnecessary murders of innocent Palestinians? Ask yourself why...
I am sorry if I have not been articulate or explained myself.. There is so much that I have seen personally (I have been to Israel and Palestine a few times the last couple of years) and also online. It makes me sick to my stomach to know that our government supports and will continue to support Israel NO MATTER what it does! Justice should come before money and power!
Unfortunately, a lot of the truth is left out when most of the media reports on this issue (Another issue all together..). They fail to mention that Palestinians are occupied and have been occupied since 1948. You will just hear the usual Israeli rhetoric of the 'right to defend itself' and that 'Hamas hides behind civilians'.
I am always curious what Israel is defending itself from? Hamas is a resistant group.. they are resisting to being occupied and killed and treated like second class citizens for 66 years. Palestine doesn't even have an army. Who is going to defend these poor people? I don't condone any violence, but it is hard to imagine just what the Palestinians are going through. Since about 2000, a Palestinian CHILD has been killed by Israel about every 3 days. Not to mention they have been disallowed there basic human rights.
And on the propaganda line of Hamas hides behinds civilians; the 4 children playing on the beach last week who were TARGETED and killed by shelling from the Israeli Navy.. Was Hamas using them as 'human shields'? Thank God some international reporters who are staying at a nearby hotel were witness to this (and there is also cctv footage of the poor children running away from the first shelling). Had there not been anyone witness this, Israel would have denied all wrong doing... Even with all this evidence of such a horrific act, there only response was that the Israeli Navy thought it was 4 'terrorists' running away on the beach! This is the same Navy who is one of the most sophisticated in the world!
The above is just once incident.. there was a video a couple of days ago of International activists who were going through rubble for victims and survivors. One of them was filming, and you can see a sniper taker out one of the young civilians in the rubble..
Did any of this receive widespread media coverage in Australia? Did our leaders condemn any of these and all the other unnecessary murders of innocent Palestinians? Ask yourself why...
I am sorry if I have not been articulate or explained myself.. There is so much that I have seen personally (I have been to Israel and Palestine a few times the last couple of years) and also online. It makes me sick to my stomach to know that our government supports and will continue to support Israel NO MATTER what it does! Justice should come before money and power!
Re: Israel's Massacre
Went into a bit more studying of this war. An interesting upload on this, it is a bit long but worth watching. The comments below the video are far more disturbing for me. There seems there will be no end...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywjMZTVMr7k
Went into a bit more studying of this war. An interesting upload on this, it is a bit long but worth watching. The comments below the video are far more disturbing for me. There seems there will be no end...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywjMZTVMr7k
Re: Israel's Massacre
I feel for the Palestinian people too.
I understand why they fight,
And I can understand all the arguments levelled against Israel,
But, I have three questions,
If the Gaza Palestinians were so heavily blockaded by the Israeli's, how are they able to launch a seemingly endless supply of of rockets into Israeli territory?
Who are supplying the rockets?
How are these rockets getting into Gaza?
I feel for the Palestinian people too.
I understand why they fight,
And I can understand all the arguments levelled against Israel,
But, I have three questions,
If the Gaza Palestinians were so heavily blockaded by the Israeli's, how are they able to launch a seemingly endless supply of of rockets into Israeli territory?
Who are supplying the rockets?
How are these rockets getting into Gaza?
Re: Israel's Massacre
There are many tunnel networks running from Gaza into Egypt and this is where they have been getting supplies from.
When the new Egyptian Govt came in, they sank them. While this did cutoff arms supplies it also did the same to food, medicines, fuel and other essential items that were required for the people of Gaza to live
As you have said "If the Gaza Palestinians were so heavily blockaded by the Israeli's, how are they able to launch a seemingly endless supply of of rockets into Israeli territory?", does this mean you don't think the blockade has been going on for years against this people?
Phantom said:
There are many tunnel networks running from Gaza into Egypt and this is where they have been getting supplies from.
When the new Egyptian Govt came in, they sank them. While this did cutoff arms supplies it also did the same to food, medicines, fuel and other essential items that were required for the people of Gaza to live
As you have said "If the Gaza Palestinians were so heavily blockaded by the Israeli's, how are they able to launch a seemingly endless supply of of rockets into Israeli territory?", does this mean you don't think the blockade has been going on for years against this people?
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