Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Palestine and Israel

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antman said:
Dude, it's not easy to summarise 150 years of history (and beyond) in a few paragraphs. By necessity it's a drastic oversimplification of real events - but I make no apology :hihi

So why were there a wave of refugees into Jordan and Egypt if Israel were such benevolent rulers?

As a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars.
Also, in 1948, the Grand Mufti telling Palestinians to leave contributed.

A policy of coexistence which includes taking their land and shrinking their territories until the present. You say Israel treated the Palestinians better than Jordan or Egypt ever did - except of course Israel now exists where Palestine was. It's coexistence on Israel's terms and dictated by force. Comply and "coexist", leave, or face the IDF.

It may be, but:
1. Israel did not expel Palestinians, as Egypt and Jordan did, and
2. Israel did provide land concessions in 1993 for Palestinians, Gaza & West Bank. Egypt & Jordan had opportunities to do this from 1948 to 1967 but did not.

This is a fair summation. Why did Jewish extremists assassinate Rabin though? There is a strong current of extremism in Israel which tacitly supports the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank.

No doubt!
Unfortunately, democracy can allow small minority parties to control governments and the balance of power.
We know this happens with the Greens and PUP in Australia.
Government in Israel is influenced by minority parties too.
But, if you cower to minorities as the Israeli government has done, then it is accountable.

Palestinians carry a very bitter taste about the whole of the 20th century and until the present day.

No doubt they do, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones.
The Israelis have their own story of suffering through the 20th century.

I doubt it - peoples who coexisted peacefully in the 19th century are now divided by a century of land grabs, bombings, oppression, civil war, manipulation by external forces such as the US and other Middle Eastern states.

We both agree on the difficulty of the task.

Agree. But to argue that Palestinians should renounce violence and throw themselves on the mercy of Israel - a state that has repressed them economically, militarily and socially for the last 70 years is simply naive.

But can the Palestinians, particularly Hamas, agree to renouncing violence without throwing themselves on the mercy of Israel?

As per my original post, I see the Northern Ireland conflict as very close to this, historically.
Hopefully Northern Ireland can provide the example.
 
Seems to me Hamas dont really understand Realpolitik. Perhaps they didnt read Thucydides and Machiavelli at Gaza University.
 
Phantom said:
As per my original post, I see the Northern Ireland conflict as very close to this, historically.
Hopefully Northern Ireland can provide the example.

Disagree.

Hamas shouldnt play it like the IRA. They have been doing that since 47 and all it got them was....


map-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.jpg




Their best best is to get the western world/ media on their side. to do that they need to play it like Ghandi or Mandela. Passive resistance is the best bet. And the best spin-doctors money can buy.
 
evo said:
the best spin-doctors money can buy.

essendons?

mld said:
I suppose I should feel bad for wanting to make an emissions reduction joke there. Bad mld.

as long as your joke doesnt involve gas, I think you should let rip mld.
 
evo said:
Disagree.

Hamas shouldnt play it like the IRA. They have been doing that since 47 and all it got them was....


map-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.jpg




Their best best is to get the western world/ media on their side. to do that they need to play it like Ghandi or Mandela. Passive resistance is the best bet. And the best spin-doctors money can buy.

You could be right!

The Palestinians did gain land concessions in 1993 because of the relative quiet between 1982 and 1993.
 
I thought this made for a very interesting read, and may even go some way into swaying the 'rusted on' pro-Israeli readers... I can hope at least.

==========
The deafening silence around the Hamas proposal for a 10-year truce
Francesca Albanese on July 22, 2014 245


During its first 14 days, the Israeli military aggression on the Gaza Strip has left a toll of over 500 dead, the vast majority of whom civilians, and many more injured. Thousands of houses were targeted and destroyed together with other essential civilian infrastructures. Over one hundred thousand civilians have been displaced. By the time you will read this article the numbers will have grown higher and, despicably, no real truce seems in sight. When I say real, I mean practicable, agreeable to both sides and sustainable for some time.

The Israeli government, followed suit by Western media and governments, was quick to put the blame on Hamas for that. Hamas – they claim – had an opportunity to accept a truce brokered by Egypt – and refused it. Others have already explained at length why this proposal crafted without any consultations with Hamas, was hard to accept by Hamas.

Much less noticed by the Western media was that Hamas and Islamic Jihad had meanwhile proposed a 10 year truce on the basis of 10 – very reasonable – conditions. While Israel was too busy preparing for the ground invasion, why didn’t anyone in the diplomatic community spend a word about this proposal? The question is all the more poignant as this proposal was in essence in line with what many international experts as well as the United Nations have asked for years now, and included some aspects that Israel had already considered as feasible requests in the past.

The main demands of this proposal revolve around lifting the Israeli siege in Gaza through the opening of its borders with Israel to commerce and people, the establishment of an international seaport and airport under U.N. supervision, the expansion of the permitted fishing zone in the Gaza sea to 10 kilometers, and the revitalization of Gaza industrial zone. None of these demands is new. The United Nations among others have repeatedly demanded the lifting of the siege, which is illegal under international law, as a necessary condition to end the dire humanitarian situation in the Strip. The facilitation of movement of goods and people between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip had already been stipulated in the Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) signed between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority in 2005. Even the construction of a port and the possibility of an airport in Gaza had already been stipulated in the AMA, though the actual implementation never followed. The requested increase of the permitted fishing zone is less than what envisaged in the 1994 Oslo Agreements and it was already part of the 2012 ceasefire understanding. Unhindered fishermen’s access to the sea, without fear of being shot or arrested and having boats and nets confiscated by Israeli patrols is essential to the 3000 Gaza fishermen struggling to survive today by fishing in a limited area which is overfished and heavily polluted. The revitalization of the Gaza industrial zone, which has progressively been dismantled since the 2005 disengagement and by continuous military operations, was already considered a crucial Palestinian interest at the time of the 2005 Disengagement.

The proposed truce also demands the withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border and the Internationalization of the Rafah Crossing and its placement under international supervision. The presence of international forces on the borders and the withdrawal of the Israeli army requested by Hamas is unsurprising, considered the heavy toll of casualties by Israeli fire in the Access Restricted Areas near the Israeli border (i.e. an area of 1.5km along the border comprising 35% of Gaza land and 85% of its whole arable land). The international presence should guarantee that Egyptian and Israeli security concerns are equally met.

The proposal also requests Israel to release the Palestinian prisoners whom had been freed as part of the deal to liberate Gilat Shalit and were arrested after the killing of the three Israeli youths in June 2014 in the West Bank; that Israel refrains from interfering in the reconciliation agreement between Hamas and Fatah; and that the permits for worshippers to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque be eased.

Not only are these conditions sensible in light of previous agreements but, especially those who pertain to the lift of the siege, are the minimum standards that Hamas and the people of Gaza could accept in the current circumstances. As Raji Sourani reports, the most common sentence from people in Gaza after the announcement of the Egyptian ‘brokered’ ceasefire was “Either this situation really improves or it is better to just die”. The dire circumstances under which Gazans have lived in the last 7 years have indeed evoked in many the image of the enclave as “the world’s largest open air prison”. A prison which is overcrowded and where in 6 years there will no longer be enough drinkable water or capacity to provide other essential services, as a recent UN report denounces. Facing this gloomy context, for many the continuous launch of rockets from Gaza is a response to the siege and the harsh conditions imposed by the occupation.

One could imagine that an agreement on the basis of the Hamas proposal could not only stop the current round of hostilities but also pave the way towards a lasting solution of the conflict. However Israel has shown no interest in considering this proposal and continues to prefer the military option. As a result one wonders whether Israel really wants a long lasting resolution of the conflict. This resolution would necessarily require compromises on the Israeli side, including relinquishing control over the West Bank and Gaza. Netanyahu recently made it perfectly clear that this option is off the table. An eventual agreement between Israel and Hamas would further strengthen the legitimacy of Hamas in the newly achieved Palestinian unity, which is a prerequisite for any lasting peace. Legitimizing the Palestinian unity is something the Israeli government is avoiding like the plague as it would push forward their quest for justice in the international arena.

Perhaps more surprisingly, the international community – with the exception of Turkey and Qatar – has spent no words on the Hamas truce proposal although many of the points of the proposal already enjoy international support. This refusal to deal with the proposal is particularly problematic in the current context. Without any pressure by the international community, Israel, the party who has the upper hand in this conflict, will feel legitimized to keep refusing negotiations for a real truce with Hamas. Truces and negotiations are made with enemies not friends. International organizations and Western leaders, echoing Israel and the United States, maintain that Hamas is a terrorist organization and thus any direct negotiations with it are embargoed.

Hamas resorts to violence, which is often indiscriminate and targets civilians – also due to the lack of precision weapons. But so does Israel – no matter how sophisticated its weaponry is. If the point is to help parties negotiate, both parties have to be treated equally, encouraged to consider measures other than military ones and accept compromises based on international law. Especially when sensible proposals are on the table as in this case. The firm refusal to engage with Hamas at this point epitomizes the failure of the international community to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Unless the international community reverts this pattern by taking a honest stand grounded in international law and diplomacy, the plight of Gaza and of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will continue.


About Francesca Albanese
Francesca Albanese is an international lawyer based in Washington DC. After working eight years for the United Nations including in the Middle East and in Jerusalem, the heart of the conflict over Palestine, she is currently engaged in research and advocacy on various humanitarian issues including the end of the military occupation in Palestine and the full recognition of Palestinians’ fundamental rights under international law.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/deafening-silence-proposal.html
 
More disgusting humanitarian abuses at the hands of the Israeli regime over night... Hang your heads in shame.

If you are up to it, view the article and look at the pictures included.

I'll be interested to read what the apologists have to say about this one.
==========

After a reported 17 warnings on shelter location, Israeli artillery hits Gaza school, killing 19
Middle East Correspondent
View more articles from Ruth Pollard


In the bombed Gaza school
GRAPHIC CONTENT: Ruth Pollard witnesses the death and destruction at the UN school in Gaza hit with Israeli artillery, killing at least 19 people.

Jabalia, Gaza: Four donkeys lay dead at the gate of the Jabalia Elementary Girls School in Gaza, the first indication of the bloody human toll inside.

Three heavy artillery shells hit the United Nations school in the early hours of Wednesday, killing 19 and wounding at least 100. More than 3300 Palestinian families were sheltering in the school after fleeing from Israel’s military operations in Gaza.

Bloodied pillows and blankets – shredded to pieces – were scattered over the school’s courtyard as shocked and traumatised families displaced from their homes and living in overcrowded conditions, waited to hear the fate of those injured.

A boy wounded in an Israeli strike on a compound housing a UN school in Jabalia waits for treatment. Photo: AFP
“We came here because we thought it was safe,” said Amna Zantit, cradling her eight-month-old son in her arms, as the boom of shells echoed in the distance and drones and F16s growled overhead.

“For 1½ hours there was shelling all around the school … it was the most terrifying night, death came very close to us," she said. “When they struck the classrooms we lost electricity – we couldn’t see anything and it was hard to breathe from the dust and the fear.”

One shell blew out the front wall of a classroom, another tore a large hole in the ceiling of a second-floor classroom across the courtyard, a third hit a small building near the school gates.

Gurneys piled up outside the morgue at the Kamal Adwan hospital in Beit Lahia in Gaza. Photo: AFP
The families sleeping inside did not stand a chance.

"I was sleeping when the first shell landed," said 15-year-old Rezeq al-Adham as he lay in Kamal Adwan Hospital awaiting surgery to save his badly injured right leg. "I escaped into the school yard and that is when the second shell landed," Rezeq said.

His father saw him fall to the ground bleeding as chaos broke out all around them.

A girl injured in an Israeli strike in Shujaiyah, Gaza, outside a hospital. Photo: AP
“These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army,” the United Nations Relief and Works Commissioner Pierre Krahenbuhl said.

He condemned the attack as “a serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.

It was the second mass casualty attack, and the sixth strike, on a UN school since Israel’s military offensive in Gaza began on July 8.

Exhausted Palestinian medics take a break after carrying wounded people injured from the Israeli strike in Shijaiyah neighbourhood, into the emergency room at Gaza City's Shifa hospital. Photo: AP
“The precise location of the Jabalia Elementary Girls School and the fact that it was housing thousands of internally displaced people was communicated to the Israeli army 17 times to ensure its protection; the last … just hours before the fatal shelling,” Mr Krahenbuhl said.

UN shelters are overflowing, he said, and UN staff – “the very people leading the humanitarian response” – are being killed.

“Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue,” he said.

Heavy smoke billows following an Israeli military strike in Gaza City. Photo: AFP
He called on the international community to take political action to put an end to the carnage, which continued on Wednesday when three air strikes on the outskirts of the town Shujaiyah killed 15 and injured 150. As thick black smoke billowed from the initial air strike witnesses said emergency services and civilians rushed to help the dead and injured, only to be hit with a further two air strikes minutes later.

The attack was carried during a four-hour “humanitarian lull” announced by the Israeli Defence Force – it had warned “the humanitarian window will not apply to the areas in which IDF soldiers are currently operating”, including Shujaiyah.

Amid scenes of panic and carnage, with bodies torn apart and the severely injured being carried by hand to waiting ambulances, the people of Gaza prepared for another terrifying night of bombardment from Israeli navy boats and F16s.

“This atrocity is barbarity personified,” director-general of the Ministry of Health in Gaza Dr Medhat Abbas said, amid scenes of chaos at hospitals in the centre and north of the coastal strip.

More than 108 Palestinians were killed in Israeli air strikes and shelling on Wednesday alone, bringing the toll to at least 1318 dead and 7100 wounded. Human rights groups say 80 per cent of the casualties are civilian and of them, 31 per cent are children.

The Obama administration, without naming Israel, condemned the shelling of the UNRWA school and urged a prompt investigation into the incident.

As its soldiers carried out the deadly attack on Shujaiyah, Israel’s security cabinet held a five-hour meeting to discuss its operations in Gaza. Local media reported that the cabinet had ordered the IDF to continue its offensive against Hamas in Gaza.

Fifty-six soldiers have been killed since Israel began its ground invasion of the coastal strip began on July 17, while three civilians have also died.

In a statement released on Wednesday, the IDF said militants in Gaza had launched more than 2600 rockets toward Israel over the past three weeks, while Israeli forces have hit 4100 targets in Gaza, about one-third connected to rocket launching, a statement said.

During the humanitarian window, 26 rockets had been fired at Israel, two of them were intercepted by Israel’s missile defence system above the southern cities of Ashkelon and Netivot, the IDF reported.

For the third time in two months, UNRWA announced on Tuesday it had found weapons were being stored in schools that were closed for the summer.

“We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school,” said spokesperson, Chris Gunness. “This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises.”

The UNRWA director, Mr Krahenbuhl, said the discovery of the weapons, made by UN staff and publicly announced, could in no way justify Israel’s attacks on it schools.

“There simply cannot be, by any stretch of the imagination, a suggestion that because weapons were found in three schools – by us – that allows … self-exoneration in relation to an attack like this,” he told the al-Jazeera network.


http://www.theage.com.au/world/after-a-reported-17-warnings-on-shelter-location-israeli-artillery-hits-gaza-school-killing-19-20140731-zyr1v.html
 
Phantom said:
As per my original post, I see the Northern Ireland conflict as very close to this, historically.
Hopefully Northern Ireland can provide the example.

I disagree. The Brits never forced Irish Catholics out of Northern Ireland - there were never 5 million NI refugees in surrounding countries waiting to get back to their homelands.

Israel/Palestine goes beyond sectarian violence and political control and is all about land and resources - Israel wants land for its population and the Palestinians want their land back.
 
And another shocking IDF atrocity. In this case a small girl was executed by an IDF soldier after she strayed into an off-limits area, even though she was not thought to be a threat and was trying to leave the area. She was first shot in the leg, then the IDF officer walked up to her and shot her in the chest and head with his assault rifle.

Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
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Chris McGreal in Jerusalem

The Guardian, Wednesday 24 November 2004 11.02 AEST
An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood.

The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.

The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post's operations room and the captain, who was a company commander.

The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward."

Operations room: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.

The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."

The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.

Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.

On the tape, the company commander then "clarifies" why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."

The army's original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired.

The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing.

A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".

However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander.

Iman's parents have accused the army of whitewashing the affair by filing minor charges against Captain R. They want him prosecuted for murder.

Record of a shooting

Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel?CMP=ema_632
 
Geez, how depressing is this conflict?

That the majority of Israelis support shelling and bombing which causes 80 per cent civilian casualties, 31 per cent children reflects how morally bankrupt these people as a people are. Horrifying isn’t it?

That hamas would refuse to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist and fire rockets and dig tunnels to murder Israelis - an obviously invincible military force - knowing the scale of suffering the inevitable Israeli retaliation would bring is insane isn't it?

Are they all mad?

If the map evo posted is accurate then not much hope for the future.

... roll on Saturday. GWS.
 
K3 said:
I thought this made for a very interesting read, and may even go some way into swaying the 'rusted on' pro-Israeli readers... I can hope at least.

==========
The deafening silence around the Hamas proposal for a 10-year truce
Francesca Albanese on July 22, 2014 245


During its first 14 days, the Israeli military aggression on the Gaza Strip has left a toll of over 500 dead, the vast majority of whom civilians, and many more injured. Thousands of houses were targeted and destroyed together with other essential civilian infrastructures. Over one hundred thousand civilians have been displaced. By the time you will read this article the numbers will have grown higher and, despicably, no real truce seems in sight. When I say real, I mean practicable, agreeable to both sides and sustainable for some time.

The Israeli government, followed suit by Western media and governments, was quick to put the blame on Hamas for that. Hamas – they claim – had an opportunity to accept a truce brokered by Egypt – and refused it. Others have already explained at length why this proposal crafted without any consultations with Hamas, was hard to accept by Hamas.

Much less noticed by the Western media was that Hamas and Islamic Jihad had meanwhile proposed a 10 year truce on the basis of 10 – very reasonable – conditions. While Israel was too busy preparing for the ground invasion, why didn’t anyone in the diplomatic community spend a word about this proposal? The question is all the more poignant as this proposal was in essence in line with what many international experts as well as the United Nations have asked for years now, and included some aspects that Israel had already considered as feasible requests in the past.

The main demands of this proposal revolve around lifting the Israeli siege in Gaza through the opening of its borders with Israel to commerce and people, the establishment of an international seaport and airport under U.N. supervision, the expansion of the permitted fishing zone in the Gaza sea to 10 kilometers, and the revitalization of Gaza industrial zone. None of these demands is new. The United Nations among others have repeatedly demanded the lifting of the siege, which is illegal under international law, as a necessary condition to end the dire humanitarian situation in the Strip. The facilitation of movement of goods and people between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip had already been stipulated in the Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) signed between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority in 2005. Even the construction of a port and the possibility of an airport in Gaza had already been stipulated in the AMA, though the actual implementation never followed. The requested increase of the permitted fishing zone is less than what envisaged in the 1994 Oslo Agreements and it was already part of the 2012 ceasefire understanding. Unhindered fishermen’s access to the sea, without fear of being shot or arrested and having boats and nets confiscated by Israeli patrols is essential to the 3000 Gaza fishermen struggling to survive today by fishing in a limited area which is overfished and heavily polluted. The revitalization of the Gaza industrial zone, which has progressively been dismantled since the 2005 disengagement and by continuous military operations, was already considered a crucial Palestinian interest at the time of the 2005 Disengagement.

The proposed truce also demands the withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border and the Internationalization of the Rafah Crossing and its placement under international supervision. The presence of international forces on the borders and the withdrawal of the Israeli army requested by Hamas is unsurprising, considered the heavy toll of casualties by Israeli fire in the Access Restricted Areas near the Israeli border (i.e. an area of 1.5km along the border comprising 35% of Gaza land and 85% of its whole arable land). The international presence should guarantee that Egyptian and Israeli security concerns are equally met.

The proposal also requests Israel to release the Palestinian prisoners whom had been freed as part of the deal to liberate Gilat Shalit and were arrested after the killing of the three Israeli youths in June 2014 in the West Bank; that Israel refrains from interfering in the reconciliation agreement between Hamas and Fatah; and that the permits for worshippers to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque be eased.

Not only are these conditions sensible in light of previous agreements but, especially those who pertain to the lift of the siege, are the minimum standards that Hamas and the people of Gaza could accept in the current circumstances. As Raji Sourani reports, the most common sentence from people in Gaza after the announcement of the Egyptian ‘brokered’ ceasefire was “Either this situation really improves or it is better to just die”. The dire circumstances under which Gazans have lived in the last 7 years have indeed evoked in many the image of the enclave as “the world’s largest open air prison”. A prison which is overcrowded and where in 6 years there will no longer be enough drinkable water or capacity to provide other essential services, as a recent UN report denounces. Facing this gloomy context, for many the continuous launch of rockets from Gaza is a response to the siege and the harsh conditions imposed by the occupation.

One could imagine that an agreement on the basis of the Hamas proposal could not only stop the current round of hostilities but also pave the way towards a lasting solution of the conflict. However Israel has shown no interest in considering this proposal and continues to prefer the military option. As a result one wonders whether Israel really wants a long lasting resolution of the conflict. This resolution would necessarily require compromises on the Israeli side, including relinquishing control over the West Bank and Gaza. Netanyahu recently made it perfectly clear that this option is off the table. An eventual agreement between Israel and Hamas would further strengthen the legitimacy of Hamas in the newly achieved Palestinian unity, which is a prerequisite for any lasting peace. Legitimizing the Palestinian unity is something the Israeli government is avoiding like the plague as it would push forward their quest for justice in the international arena.

Perhaps more surprisingly, the international community – with the exception of Turkey and Qatar – has spent no words on the Hamas truce proposal although many of the points of the proposal already enjoy international support. This refusal to deal with the proposal is particularly problematic in the current context. Without any pressure by the international community, Israel, the party who has the upper hand in this conflict, will feel legitimized to keep refusing negotiations for a real truce with Hamas. Truces and negotiations are made with enemies not friends. International organizations and Western leaders, echoing Israel and the United States, maintain that Hamas is a terrorist organization and thus any direct negotiations with it are embargoed.

Hamas resorts to violence, which is often indiscriminate and targets civilians – also due to the lack of precision weapons. But so does Israel – no matter how sophisticated its weaponry is. If the point is to help parties negotiate, both parties have to be treated equally, encouraged to consider measures other than military ones and accept compromises based on international law. Especially when sensible proposals are on the table as in this case. The firm refusal to engage with Hamas at this point epitomizes the failure of the international community to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Unless the international community reverts this pattern by taking a honest stand grounded in international law and diplomacy, the plight of Gaza and of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will continue.


About Francesca Albanese
Francesca Albanese is an international lawyer based in Washington DC. After working eight years for the United Nations including in the Middle East and in Jerusalem, the heart of the conflict over Palestine, she is currently engaged in research and advocacy on various humanitarian issues including the end of the military occupation in Palestine and the full recognition of Palestinians’ fundamental rights under international law.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/deafening-silence-proposal.html

Interesting article by Albanese.
Haven't seen nor heard of this Hamas proposal that she writes about before.

If the proposal is authentic, as presented, it seems a reasonable proposal.
Hope it gets up!
 
Apparently the Hamas proposal was put forward to the Israelis yesterday.

The good news is that the Israeli press are writing to back the Hamas proposal.
Haaretz appears in favour of it.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607604

Here's a further posting in The Jerusalem post.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/What-are-Hamass-conditions-for-a-cease-fire-363011

Hope it gets up!
 
Tried to find news of or comment on the Hamas 10 year ceasefire offer on either Aljazeera or Qantara without success.
 
It would be good especially if inocent children and women were stopped from being killed. Disgusting situation. Can someone come up with a decent reason why the UN actually exists?
 
Tommy H said:
It would be good especially if inocent children and women were stopped from being killed. Disgusting situation. Can someone come up with a decent reason why the UN actually exists?

Interesting isn't it mate. I recon if you look back over it's recent history, the UN hasn't done a whole lot to explain, and justify, it's existence. Comes across as many people with great intentions who are constantly hindered by vested interests.
 
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict

Ali A. Rizvi
Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician and musician

Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.

These terms intrigue me because they directly speak to the doggedly tribal nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You don't hear of too many other countries being universally spoken of this way. Why these two? Both Israelis and Palestinians are complex, with diverse histories and cultures, and two incredibly similar (if divisive) religions. To come down completely on the side of one or the other doesn't seem rational to me.

It is telling that most Muslims around the world support Palestinians, and most Jews support Israel. This, of course, is natural -- but it's also problematic. It means that this is not about who's right or wrong as much as which tribe or nation you are loyal to. It means that Palestinian supporters would be just as ardently pro-Israel if they were born in Israeli or Jewish families, and vice versa. It means that the principles that guide most people's view of this conflict are largely accidents of birth -- that however we intellectualize and analyze the components of the Middle East mess, it remains, at its core, a tribal conflict.

By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization. And worst of all, you get blood on your hands.

So before picking a side in this latest Israeli-Palestine conflict, consider these 7 questions:

***

1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?

Over 700 people have died in Gaza as of this writing. Muslims have woken up around the world. But is it really because of the numbers?

Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then?

If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish.

Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report. Many of the pictures you're seeing are of children killed by Assad, who is supported by Iran, which also funds Hezbollah and Hamas. What could be more exploitative of dead children than attributing the pictures of innocents killed by your own supporters to your enemy simply because you weren't paying enough attention when your own were killing your own?

This doesn't, by any means, excuse the recklessness, negligence, and sometimes outright cruelty of Israeli forces. But it clearly points to the likelihood that the Muslim world's opposition to Israel isn't just about the number of dead.

Here is a question for those who grew up in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority countries like I did: if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories tomorrow, all in one go -- and went back to the 1967 borders -- and gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem -- do you honestly think Hamas wouldn't find something else to pick a fight about? Do you honestly think that this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are Jews? Do you recall what you watched and heard on public TV growing up in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt?

Yes, there's an unfair and illegal occupation there, and yes, it's a human rights disaster. But it is also true that much of the other side is deeply driven by anti-Semitism. Anyone who has lived in the Arab/Muslim world for more than a few years knows that. It isn't always a clean, one-or-the-other blame split in these situations like your Chomskys and Greenwalds would have you believe. It's both.

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2. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?

There are three pervasive myths that are widely circulated about the "roots" of the Middle East conflict:

Myth 1: Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.
Myth 2: Islam has nothing to do with Jihadism or anti-Semitism.
Myth 3: This conflict has nothing to do with religion.

To the "I oppose Zionism, not Judaism!" crowd, is it mere coincidence that this passage from the Old Testament (emphasis added) describes so accurately what's happening today?

"I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods." - Exodus 23:31-32
Or this one?

"See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers -- to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- and to their descendants after them." - Deuteronomy 1:8
There's more: Genesis 15:18-21, and Numbers 34 for more detail on the borders. Zionism is not the "politicization" or "distortion" of Judaism. It is the revival of it.

And to the "This is not about Islam, it's about politics!" crowd, is this verse from the Quran (emphasis added) meaningless?

"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you--then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." - Quran, 5:51
What about the numerous verses and hadith quoted in Hamas' charter? And the famous hadith of the Gharqad tree explicitly commanding Muslims to kill Jews?

Please tell me -- in light of these passages written centuries and millennia before the creation of Israel or the occupation -- how can anyone conclude that religion isn't at the root of this, or at least a key driving factor? You may roll your eyes at these verses, but they are taken very seriously by many of the players in this conflict, on both sides. Shouldn't they be acknowledged and addressed? When is the last time you heard a good rational, secular argument supporting settlement expansion in the West Bank?

Denying religion's role seems to be a way to be able to criticize the politics while remaining apologetically "respectful" of people's beliefs for fear of "offending" them. But is this apologism and "respect" for inhuman ideas worth the deaths of human beings?

People have all kinds of beliefs -- from insisting the Earth is flat to denying the Holocaust. You may respect their right to hold these beliefs, but you're not obligated to respect the beliefs themselves. It's 2014, and religions don't need to be "respected" any more than any other political ideology or philosophical thought system. Human beings have rights. Ideas don't. The oft-cited politics/religion dichotomy in Abrahamic religions is false and misleading. All of the Abrahamic religions are inherently political.

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3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?

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4. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?

Ask Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas how he feels about Hamas' tactics.

"What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?" he asks. "I don't like trading in Palestinian blood."

It isn't just speculation anymore that Hamas puts its civilians in the line of fire.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri plainly admitted on Gazan national TV that the human shield strategy has proven "very effective."

The UN relief organization UNRWA issued a furious condemnation of Hamas after discovering hidden rockets in not one, but two children's schools in Gaza last week.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Israel, rarely killing any civilians or causing any serious damage. It launches them from densely populated areas, including hospitals and schools.

Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes? Even when the IDF warns civilians to evacuate their homes before a strike, why does Hamas tell them to stay put?

Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die. If there is one thing that helps Hamas most -- one thing that gives it any legitimacy -- it is dead civilians. Rockets in schools. Hamas exploits the deaths of its children to gain the world's sympathy. It uses them as a weapon.

You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it.

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5. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?

Because they have short memories.

In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave were forcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming.

This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. It wasn't perfect -- Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace -- but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.

After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years.

But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built an extensive network of tunnels to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.

Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come.

Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.

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6. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?

The reason fewer Israeli civilians die is not because there are fewer rockets raining down on them. It's because they are better protected by their government.

When Hamas' missiles head towards Israel, sirens go off, the Iron Dome goes into effect, and civilians are rushed into bomb shelters. When Israeli missiles head towards Gaza, Hamas tells civilians to stay in their homes and face them.

While Israel's government urges its civilians to get away from rockets targeted at them, Gaza's government urges its civilians to get in front of missiles not targeted at them.

The popular explanation for this is that Hamas is poor and lacks the resources to protect its people like Israel does. The real reason, however, seems to have more to do with disordered priorities than deficient resources (see #5). This is about will, not ability. All those rockets, missiles, and tunnels aren't cheap to build or acquire. But they are priorities. And it's not like Palestinians don't have a handful of oil-rich neighbors to help them the way Israel has the US.

The problem is, if civilian casualties in Gaza drop, Hamas loses the only weapon it has in its incredibly effective PR war. It is in Israel's national interest to protect its civilians and minimize the deaths of those in Gaza. It is in Hamas' interest to do exactly the opposite on both fronts.

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7. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?

Because Israel's flaws, while smaller in number, are massive in impact.

Many Israelis seem to have the same tribal mentality that their Palestinian counterparts do. They celebrate the bombing of Gaza the same way many Arabs celebrated 9/11. A UN report recently found that Israeli forces tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields. They beat up teenagers. They are often reckless with their airstrikes. They have academics who explain how rape may be the only truly effective weapon against their enemy. And many of them callously and publicly revel in the deaths of innocent Palestinian children.

To be fair, these kinds of things do happen on both sides. They are an inevitable consequence of multiple generations raised to hate the other over the course of 65 plus years. To hold Israel up to a higher standard would mean approaching the Palestinians with the racism of lowered expectations.

However, if Israel holds itself to a higher standard like it claims -- it needs to do much more to show it isn't the same as the worst of its neighbors.

Israel is leading itself towards increasing international isolation and national suicide because of two things: 1. The occupation; and 2. Settlement expansion.

Settlement expansion is simply incomprehensible. No one really understands the point of it. Virtually every US administration -- from Nixon to Bush to Obama -- has unequivocally opposed it. There is no justification for it except a Biblical one (see #2), which makes it slightly more difficult to see Israel's motives as purely secular.

The occupation is more complicated. The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said this about Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories:

"In order for Israel to become part of the alliance against whatever we want to call it, religious barbarism, theocratic, possibly thermonuclear theocratic or nuclear theocratic aggression, it can't, it'll have to dispense with the occupation. It's as simple as that.
It can be, you can think of it as a kind of European style, Western style country if you want, but it can't govern other people against their will. It can't continue to steal their land in the way that it does every day.And it's unbelievably irresponsible of Israelis, knowing the position of the United States and its allies are in around the world, to continue to behave in this unconscionable way. And I'm afraid I know too much about the history of the conflict to think of Israel as just a tiny, little island surrounded by a sea of ravening wolves and so on. I mean, I know quite a lot about how that state was founded, and the amount of violence and dispossession that involved. And I'm a prisoner of that knowledge. I can't un-know it."
As seen with Gaza in 2005, unilateral disengagement is probably easier to talk about than actually carry out. But if it Israel doesn't work harder towards a two-state (maybe three-state, thanks to Hamas) solution, it will eventually have to make that ugly choice between being a Jewish-majority state or a democracy.

It's still too early to call Israel an apartheid state, but when John Kerry said Israel could end up as one in the future, he wasn't completely off the mark. It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty.

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Let's face it, the land belongs to both of them now. Israel was carved out of Palestine for Jews with help from the British in the late 1940s just like my own birthplace of Pakistan was carved out of India for Muslims around the same time. The process was painful, and displaced millions in both instances. But it's been almost 70 years. There are now at least two or three generations of Israelis who were born and raised in this land, to whom it really is a home, and who are often held accountable and made to pay for for historical atrocities that are no fault of their own. They are programmed to oppose "the other" just as Palestinian children are. At its very core, this is a tribal religious conflict that will never be resolved unless people stop choosing sides.

So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.

If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html?utm_content=buffer6f2f5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
 
Azza said:
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict

What an insightful article (I'm not seeking to be inciteful). Very closely encapsulates my views. Here's to secularism, democracy and a two state solution.
 
Azza said:
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict

Ali A. Rizvi
Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician and musician

Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.


So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.

If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html?utm_content=buffer6f2f5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Excellent article!
 
Great article Azza, I wish I had read this before I engaged in a rather heated debate with my new Jewish co-worker. He's a smart lad but someone who is at wits end with the barbaric nature of Hamas. His views are now purely survivalist - kill or be killed to put things bluntly. I won't be revisiting the topic with him but at least I have some more angles to work with in future. Black & white this issue aint.
 
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